Do we have our Fab 4 Back

[kohli]

26 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

 

I don't know what are you're arguing for. I was replying to post which claimed current lot is 4 levels below line of 2000s.u

 

And batting likes of Dravid, Sehwag, Ganguly had less than 40 avg in Aus despite facing inferior attacks on flatter pitches.

 

Can you list down how many times batsmen of 2000s averaged more 40 in bowling friendly conditons? 

 

Can you list down how many times batsmen of 2000s averaged more 40 in bowling friendly conditons against great attacks?

Sehwag avg in aus is 46 & dravid-41

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, kohli said:

I don’t know how can you judge bowling friendly conditions. Good batting unit can make 400 on bowling friendly pitch & medicore batting unit can’t make even 300 on patta.

 

I am not talking about 1 match. 

 

I am talking about series performances. And yes, please feel free to use your own judgement. Whatever feels like difficult bowling conditions and great bowling attack. It's about your opinion. No matter what others say.

[Majestic]

Fab four is miles better as batting unit.

 

1) Pujara is Alastair Cook level test bat. Dravid was an ATG in league of Kallis and Waugh and Sanga.

 

2) Sehwag is a rich man's Rohit Sharma. Sharma has nothing to show up on turners and even bouncy wickets in tests where he is hyped a lot.

 

3) Laxman is a rich man's Rahane. He has played many legendary innings while Rahane only has two, Lords 2014 and Melbourne 2020. Rahane is Ganguly level. Ganguly averages 39 in SENA and Rahane 37 in SENA. But given that he has led us to our greatest test series win, I will give him that much of leeway and put him at Ganguly level.

 

4) Tendulkar of 2000s was inferior to Kohli of 2010s but Tendulkar of 90s was clearly superior.

 

Fab four is miles ahead IMO. But they didn't had a Jadeja like all-rounder and Bumrah like pacer or even Ishant equivalent pacers post 2016. Zaheer was excellent between 2007-11 though. That version is better than Shami's entire career lol.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Majestic
Updating Lords 2016-> 2014

[kohli]

12 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

I am not talking about 1 match. 

 

I am talking about series performances. And yes, please feel free to use your own judgement. Whatever feels like difficult bowling conditions and great bowling attack. It's about your opinion. No matter what others say.

Honestly I don’t have data.

[Trichromatic]

2 minutes ago, kohli said:

Honestly I don’t have data.

 

You have watched matches, you can use your memory.

[neel roy]

7 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Does this take into account that 2003-2012 was flattest era for batsmen and quality of bowlers was nowhere same?

 

England bowling attack of 2000s and that too on pitches where both sides were scoring 500-600 v Anderson Broad in 2 consecutive series where pitches were very diferent.

Australian pitches 2003 series - highways against popgun attack v bowling friendly tracks in 2 series (except 2014) against ATG attacks.

NZ series - well fab 4 played on greentop against Bond (only world class bowler) and struggled to get to 150. Oram, Kyle Mills were own this line up. Current gen is facing greatest bowling line up NZ has assembled.

WI - flat pitches in 2000s v all bowler friendly tracks.

SA - This is where it evens out. 2000s had faced better bowling.

SL - 2000s had faced better bowling, current gen had more bowling friendly pitches.

 

It's not that this line up hasn't shown that they can score big consistently against easy bowling attacks like fab 4 did in 2000s.

 

When did fab 4 stood up to quality bowling attacks in SENA in bowling friendly conditons? Sehwag was walking wicket, Dravid couldn't score in SA and Aus, Ganguly was always same, rarely stood up. Laxman and SRT were only ones capable of doing so. 

 

 

Quality Sena Bowling
 

Headingley Leeds 2002. We freaking drew the series. 

 

Eng series of 2007. We freaking won the series

 

Aus 2003 and 2008 tour ( shd have won sydney, Sehwag century drew adelaide). We drew 2003 shd have won in sydney in both the series. 

 

South Africa 2010..We freaking drew the series and shd have won Capetown till Boucher played a blinder if i remember. 
 

 

Nz series 2008: we freaking won it

 

 

South Africa 2006 ( shd have won the third test). We lost 2-1. South Africa chased 200 plus to win in 4th innings 

except for souped up pitches of 2002 nz india believe it or not was marvellous between 2001 to 2011 in SENA. 

 

Are you kidding me.  Dravid couldnt score in South Africa lol. Did u see Jo berg 1996. Finest innings by him. Cullinan and rain saved south africa. 

couldnt score in Aus lol. Adelaide 2003 he won the match. Perth 2008 he scored 93 in first innings setting a score of 330 and we won the match..brush up ur knowledge before posting gobbledygook   . Theres a phrase which applies to you. Little knowledge is a dangerous thing
 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by neel roy

[rtmohanlal]

6 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Does this take into account that 2003-2012 was flattest era for batsmen and quality of bowlers was nowhere same?

 

England bowling attack of 2000s and that too on pitches where both sides were scoring 500-600 v Anderson Broad in 2 consecutive series where pitches were very diferent.

Australian pitches 2003 series - highways against popgun attack v bowling friendly tracks in 2 series (except 2014) against ATG attacks.

NZ series - well fab 4 played on greentop against Bond (only world class bowler) and struggled to get to 150. Oram, Kyle Mills were own this line up. Current gen is facing greatest bowling line up NZ has assembled.

WI - flat pitches in 2000s v all bowler friendly tracks.

SA - This is where it evens out. 2000s had faced better bowling.

SL - 2000s had faced better bowling, current gen had more bowling friendly pitches.

 

It's not that this line up hasn't shown that they can score big consistently against easy bowling attacks like fab 4 did in 2000s.

 

When did fab 4 stood up to quality bowling attacks in SENA in bowling friendly conditons? Sehwag was walking wicket, Dravid couldn't score in SA and Aus, Ganguly was always same, rarely stood up. Laxman and SRT were only ones capable of doing so. 

 

 

each  one of FAB 4  members made their debut way before 2003.They faced several <25 averaging bowlers in general when compared to this group. The record of each one of the FAB 4 is way more evenly distributed country wise when compared to current set.They had to face mystery spinner like Ajantha mendis.   And they  maintained their performances over much longer periods of time on the average.

 

Bowlers like Gough, Caddick, Cork, Fraser,Mcdermott, Hughes, Cairns,Nash etc were not far behind the likes of Broad or Anderson,,,,And   only Laxman was not a great ODI batsman from that group....

[ShoonyaSifar]

18 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Fab four is miles better as batting unit.

 

1) Pujara is Alastair Cook level test bat. Dravid was an ATG in league of Kallis and Waugh and Sanga.

 

2) Sehwag is a rich man's Rohit Sharma. Sharma has nothing to show up on turners and even bouncy wickets in tests where he is hyped a lot.

 

3) Laxman is a rich man's Rahane. He has played many legendary innings while Rahane only has two, Lords 2016 and Melbourne 2020. Rahane is Ganguly level. Ganguly averages 39 in SENA and Rahane 37 in SENA. But given that he has led us to our greatest test series win, I will give him that much of leeway and put him at Ganguly level.

 

4) Tendulkar of 2000s was inferior to Kohli of 2010s but Tendulkar of 90s was clearly superior.

 

Fab four is miles ahead IMO. But they didn't had a Jadeja like all-rounder and Bumrah like pacer or even Ishant equivalent pacers post 2016. Zaheer was excellent between 2007-11 though. That version is better than Shami's entire career lol.

 

 

So many statistical anomalies in that post which is based more on nostalgia than on facts.

 

For e.g. VVS in SENA averages 40, Rahane averages 38.

At the end of 69 tests,

Rahane: 4471 runs@43 with 12 100s and 22 50s

VVS: 4303 runs@43 with 9 100s and 23 50s.

Like Rahane, he had a near 3 year lull period post Aus tour in 2004 till Eng tour in 2007 before turning around his form.

 

 

But if you read the post you'll feel VVS was twice the batsman Rahane is 

[ShoonyaSifar]

6 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

each  one of FAB 4  members made their debut way before 2003.They faced several <25 averaging bowlers in general when compared to this group. The record of each one of the FAB 4 is way more evenly distributed country wise when compared to current set.They had to face mystery spinner like Ajantha mendis.   And they  maintained their performances over much longer periods of time on the average.

 

Bowlers like Gough, Caddick, Cork, Fraser,Mcdermott, Hughes, Cairns,Nash etc were not far behind the likes of Broad or Anderson,,,,And   only Laxman was not a great ODI batsman from that group....

You sure you want to use that example? That Mendis tour to SL was the worst test series collectively for the fab 4 after the 2002 NZ series. Sehwag, Gambhir and to a small extent VVS  saved us from complete embarassment.

[Majestic]

13 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

So many statistical anomalies in that post which is based more on nostalgia than on facts.

 

For e.g. VVS in SENA averages 40, Rahane averages 38.

At the end of 69 tests,

Rahane: 4471 runs@43 with 12 100s and 22 50s

VVS: 4303 runs@43 with 9 100s and 23 50s.

Like Rahane, he had a near 3 year lull period post Aus tour in 2004 till Eng tour in 2007 before turning around his form.

 

 

But if you read the post you'll feel VVS was twice the batsman Rahane is 

Because VVS is miles better than Rahane as test batsman. This is not overhyping but reality. Cricket is not all about statistics. Some of the innings of VVS on top of my head,

 

281 in Kolkata

Adelaide 2003 after 85-4 with scoreboard pressure of 550

169 in Sydney 2000

2006 test in SA

2007 Perth

2008 Napier

Mohali ( don't remember year, the one he won with Pragyan and tail)

 

VVS is simply in a different tier to Rahane as test batsman, he is in same league as Pujara. He is arguably the greatest Indian test batsman under pressure situation. Rahane is one knock per series specialist.

 

This is no nostalgia but reality. Rahane is basically at same level to Azhar Ali as a test batsman.

[neel roy]

36 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

each  one of FAB 4  members made their debut way before 2003.They faced several <25 averaging bowlers in general when compared to this group. The record of each one of the FAB 4 is way more evenly distributed country wise when compared to current set.They had to face mystery spinner like Ajantha mendis.   And they  maintained their performances over much longer periods of time on the average.

 

Bowlers like Gough, Caddick, Cork, Fraser,Mcdermott, Hughes, Cairns,Nash etc were not far behind the likes of Broad or Anderson,,,,And   only Laxman was not a great ODI batsman from that group....

Lol exactly except for Kohli 2018 England and Pujaras 2018 Aus no batsmen has played out of the world in SENA in last 11 years. And to be honest the best attack ever faced by India overseas was 1996 South Africa.. unfreakingbelievable strength. The innings played by Tendulkar and Azhar in Capetown is of folklore.. Theres a bloody book on that innings 

 

https://www.pitchpublishing.co.uk/shop/sachin-and-azhar-cape-town

and i get annoyed by the piss poor reasoing oh it was flat SENA wicket. Lol then why didnt opposition ground us to dirt during those series with the bowling attack we had. We still managed to freaking win 7 SENA TESTS between 2001 and 2011 with THAT bowling attack. Ryan Sidebottom on a damp headingley pitch is as dangerous as anybody and India won in 2007 and drew in 2002 in England. Compare it to now

 

2011 : 4-0

2014: 3-1

2018: 4-1

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by neel roy

[ShoonyaSifar]

52 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Because VVS is miles better than Rahane as test batsman. This is not overhyping but reality. Cricket is not all about statistics. Some of the innings of VVS on top of my head,

 

281 in Kolkata

Adelaide 2003 after 85-4 with scoreboard pressure of 550

169 in Sydney 2000

2006 test in SA

2007 Perth

2008 Napier

Mohali ( don't remember year, the one he won with Pragyan and tail)

 

VVS is simply in a different tier to Rahane as test batsman, he is in same league as Pujara. He is arguably the greatest Indian test batsman under pressure situation. Rahane is one knock per series specialist.

 

This is no nostalgia but reality. Rahane is basically at same level to Azhar Ali as a test batsman.

The last 4 knocks in your list are AFTER VVS had been playing Tests for 7-8 years (75+ tests).

 

That leaves us with 3 knocks you quoted. 281 is incomparable, the ATG knock #1 batting performance

148 at Adelaide vs 114 at Melbourne

169 at Sydney vs 103 at Lord's

I'll add the 147 at MCG in 2014 and 108 in NZ

 

Except for the 281, almost matching knock for knock , till the first half of VVS' career. For the sake of Indian cricket, hope Rahane can have the same resurgence to his last 4-5 years of Test career as VVS. More than the batting, his leadership is what we need else the gains of Australia series win will be frittered away easily.

[ShoonyaSifar]

52 minutes ago, neel roy said:

Lol exactly except for Kohli 2018 England and Pujaras 2018 Aus no batsmen has played out of the world in SENA in last 11 years. And to be honest the best attack ever faced by India overseas was 1996 South Africa.. unfreakingbelievable strength. The innings played by Tendulkar and Azhar in Capetown is of folklore.. Theres a bloody book on that innings 

 

https://www.pitchpublishing.co.uk/shop/sachin-and-azhar-cape-town

and i get annoyed by the piss poor reasoing oh it was flat SENA wicket. Lol then why didnt opposition ground us to dirt during those series with the bowling attack we had. We still managed to freaking win 7 SENA TESTS between 2001 and 2011 with THAT bowling attack. Ryan Sidebottom on a damp headingley pitch is as dangerous as anybody and India won in 2007 and drew in 2002 in England. Compare it to now

 

2011 : 4-0

2014: 3-1

2018: 4-1

 

 

 

That team of 2000s also underachieved esp at home. Lost to Aus (2004), Drawn series at home vs NZ (2003), Pakistani (2005), England (2006) and SA (2008)

[Soldier]

3 hours ago, Majestic said:

Fab four is miles better as batting unit.

 

1) Pujara is Alastair Cook level test bat. Dravid was an ATG in league of Kallis and Waugh and Sanga.

 

2) Sehwag is a rich man's Rohit Sharma. Sharma has nothing to show up on turners and even bouncy wickets in tests where he is hyped a lot.

 

3) Laxman is a rich man's Rahane. He has played many legendary innings while Rahane only has two, Lords 2014 and Melbourne 2020. Rahane is Ganguly level. Ganguly averages 39 in SENA and Rahane 37 in SENA. But given that he has led us to our greatest test series win, I will give him that much of leeway and put him at Ganguly level.

 

4) Tendulkar of 2000s was inferior to Kohli of 2010s but Tendulkar of 90s was clearly superior.

 

Fab four is miles ahead IMO. But they didn't had a Jadeja like all-rounder and Bumrah like pacer or even Ishant equivalent pacers post 2016. Zaheer was excellent between 2007-11 though. That version is better than Shami's entire career lol.

 

 

Shami is way better than Zaheer. No doubt. 

 

Shami is an ATG is Asia 

[Vilander]

Kohli is the only current batsmen in their league. We should wait for their careers to finish i am sure Kohli Puj will be there in the end. 

[Vilander]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

Rahane is basically at same level to Azhar Ali as a test batsman

Nope. 

[Vilander]

On Rahane vs VVS.

 

Before the 3 tests in Aus. 

 

Vvs was the league of batsmen who would stop the opposition while they are the best batsmen for their side in the inning or the test and win with primary contribution.  Rahane was second best or third best sport batsman that needed a primary hero bat ahead of him to score a good inning. 

 

After 3 tests in Aus. 

 

Rahane now has one series where he did the primary batsman or one of two primaries in a game. 

 

He does this in a few more tests like 4 or 5 more he is on level with VVS and will be called a very good Indian batsman in all time. He is on the path. I like Rahane and Pujaras progress in this series. 

[Soldier]

Gill

Kohli

Pujara

Pant

Shaw yes Shaw

 

 

By end of 2023/24 these names will be etched in history books as ATGs already. Kohli and Pujara are already in the list. The others will be there very soon. Not overhypintm they are just that freaking good. I don't believe in jinx so piss off with that crap. 

 

[ShoonyaSifar]

Just now, Soldier said:

Gill

Kohli

Pujara

Pant

Shaw yes Shaw

 

 

By end of 2023/24 these names will be etched in history books as ATGs already. Kohli and Pujara are already in the list. The others will be there very soon. Not overhypintm they are just that freaking good. I don't believe in jinx so piss off with that crap. 

 

Gill and Shaw will be 23-24. ATGs so early in their career? That's hyperbole

[Soldier]

India's future lineup post 2023 will be interesting. Kohli Is 31. I see him play till 36. 

 

Post 2023 would be ;

 

Jaiswal

Mayank/kohli/shaw

Vihari

Gill

Pant

Shaw

Jaddu (still stuper fit so should be fine)

Sundar or Thakur or pandya depending on conditions. 

Bumrah

Siraj

Porel/prasidh kirshna

 

 

Looks bloody good. Kohli has to suck it up and play second fiddle when he is older. So either open and Protect Gill from new ball or be replaced by Mayank or Shaw. I still believe in Shaw. He is phenomenal talent. Once he works out a few deficiencies, he will be a world beater.