Austin 3:!6 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Mesky99 said: Ishant's spell against punter was great but his numbers in the series was average at best, rp and Irfan had more impact in the Perth test. No ishant is nowhere close to akthar in terms of ability or numbers. Akthar did not have much support once Wasim/waqar retired, he lead the attack and was very impactful, he was a quality performer even when half fit, there are no brownie points for playing hundred feet matches, in those 100 test matches ishant sucked in atleast 35% of the games, ishant on his good day will have figures of 5-89, akthar could have 6-30 How do you judge ability again? Akhtar was a brilliant bowler for limited time he played but his body couldnt sustain more than 46 tests. Its not about browney points, its just that he was not good enough for 100 tests or 250+ wickets like Ishant. Had Akhtar continued playing test cricket till 2011 (ODI retirement), he would have been spanked like Ross Taylor did and his career test avg would be greater than 30s. That is why I am saying, playing handful of games and showing mid 20 avg is not a parameter to judge greatness. Your endurance is the key and Akhtar was not good enough for 100 tests. Why dont you answer, if Philander or Bumrah better than Wasim, Waqar, Imran everyone bcoz avg says so?
express bowling Posted October 4, 2021 Author Posted October 4, 2021 5 hours ago, Mesky99 said: Pakistani pitches are back breaking, the pitch in Rawalpindi is literally a cement road, mindset here is the key, every Pak pacer regardless his performance will always strive to bowl fast at all levels, very few Pak pacers compromise on speed, here in india it's different, young pacers who have the extra ability to bowl quick would soon be surrounded with a bunch of medium pacers who would take a truck load of wickets in under age group cricket on help tracks, the few pacers who could bowl quick would see no incentive carrying on bowling quick and eventually would adapt bowling at a lesser speed, all this genetics, diet is secondary, I am just trolling a few hyperbole idiots here, example abhimanyu mithun is strongly built, started gyming in his teens was a discuss thrower before he started playing cricket, has all the attributes to bowl fast, never has he pushed himself to do so, he has been around trundlers like Arvind, Vinay Kumar, binny all his career seen them succeed bowling 125kph on helpful pitches, mithun did the same all throughout his career bowling 130kph, he bent his back in Ipl 2010 a couple of times and was hitting 142kph, with a few tweaks here and there in his action he could have sustained good speeds, he was never pushed to do so and that has been the case all through our cricketing history. Mindset has let us down, bowling technique wise I think Indian bowlers have always been top notch, seam presentation to Indian seamers are impressive. Whatever you are saying in this post, amd many others, was true till 2010 or thereabouts. And things further changed from 2015 onwards. It is almost like I am reading forum posts in 2011 rather than 2021. Yes ... it is true that India did not have top pacers till 2014. Yes, it is true that every quicker pacer from.India, apart from Srinath, lost pace till 2010. And it is true that Pakistan had top pacers from 1980 to 2007 or thereabouts. But the scenario has changed drastically. Quite a few fast bowlers, bowling 135 k to 147 k, and having low bowling averages and strike rates from 2016 onwards, are operating for India. And they can sustain pace and intensity throughout the day. Which is why India is winning in tests in Australia and England. And Pakistan is not producing that many good pacers these days, apart from Shaheen. After Md.Asif, how many good pacers have Pakistan produced ? And this is one of the reasons why the Pakistani test and ODI teams are not doing well. From late 2019 onwards, Pakistan have introduced many rookie pacers bowling 140 k+ and some even 145 k+. But how many of them can sustain intensity and pace beyond 4 overs ? Only Shaheen so far. I am a very big fan of quick bowling. But quick bowling has to be combined with objectivity, intensity, accuracy and a bit of movement. And quite a few Indian fast bowlers are doing it now. Consider these factors. Mosher 1
rkt.india Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 21 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said: You are singling out spells but I am talking about overall career. Ishant's spell against Ponting downunder, have you seen it? Point is and I am repeating for 5th time (LOL), Akhtar was not good enough physically or skill wise to play more than 46 test matches. Ishant Sharma had played 104 matches, got more wickets than Akhtar and still going strong. There is absolutely no doubt that Ishant will go down as a superior test bowler. Austin bhai, tbh, I would any day take 45 test 178 wickets at 25 than 105 test 300 wickets at 32.
Jay Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 6 minutes ago, rkt.india said: Austin bhai, tbh, I would any day take 45 test 178 wickets at 25 than 105 test 300 wickets at 32. Me too. I disagree with Austin over this debate. That's like saying Anderson is better than steyn because he played less tests than him. I get his premise overall but ability, impact matters more. Question is did ishant win india more games than shoaib did for Pakistan? If so then you have a case for ishant. Their sena averages are actually very similar. 35.5 for akthar. 37 for ishant
Mesky99 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 12 hours ago, express bowling said: Whatever you are saying in this post, amd many others, was true till 2010 or thereabouts. And things further changed from 2015 onwards. It is almost like I am reading forum posts in 2011 rather than 2021. Yes ... it is true that India did not have top pacers till 2014. Yes, it is true that every quicker pacer from.India, apart from Srinath, lost pace till 2010. And it is true that Pakistan had top pacers from 1980 to 2007 or thereabouts. But the scenario has changed drastically. Quite a few fast bowlers, bowling 135 k to 147 k, and having low bowling averages and strike rates from 2016 onwards, are operating for India. And they can sustain pace and intensity throughout the day. Which is why India is winning in tests in Australia and England. And Pakistan is not producing that many good pacers these days, apart from Shaheen. After Md.Asif, how many good pacers have Pakistan produced ? And this is one of the reasons why the Pakistani test and ODI teams are not doing well. From late 2019 onwards, Pakistan have introduced many rookie pacers bowling 140 k+ and some even 145 k+. But how many of them can sustain intensity and pace beyond 4 overs ? Only Shaheen so far. I am a very big fan of quick bowling. But quick bowling has to be combined with objectivity, intensity, accuracy and a bit of movement. And quite a few Indian fast bowlers are doing it now. Consider these factors. Am not doubting India's current test pace stock, it's top quality and well gelled but backs ups have to improve quickly, I still feel the overall outlook to pace bowling in India has not changed much in junior or domestic cricket, the same avesh, prasidh, mavi etc dont bowl anywhere close to what they are capable of in first class cricket, we should be producing a lot more quick bowlers with the facilities each association has now.
Mesky99 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 12 hours ago, Austin 3:!6 said: How do you judge ability again? Akhtar was a brilliant bowler for limited time he played but his body couldnt sustain more than 46 tests. Its not about browney points, its just that he was not good enough for 100 tests or 250+ wickets like Ishant. Had Akhtar continued playing test cricket till 2011 (ODI retirement), he would have been spanked like Ross Taylor did and his career test avg would be greater than 30s. That is why I am saying, playing handful of games and showing mid 20 avg is not a parameter to judge greatness. Your endurance is the key and Akhtar was not good enough for 100 tests. Why dont you answer, if Philander or Bumrah better than Wasim, Waqar, Imran everyone bcoz avg says so? Akthar put up a match winning spell against SL in the same world cup, he was literally breathing fire in the t20 series against Australia in 2009, he was still good enough.
Mesky99 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, Mesky99 said: Akthar put up a match winning spell against SL in the same world cup, he was literally breathing fire in the t20 series against Australia in 2009, he was still good enough. Plus I think rosco was dropped of akthars bowling quite early in his innings. Edited October 4, 2021 by Mesky99
Mesky99 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 12 hours ago, Austin 3:!6 said: How do you judge ability again? Akhtar was a brilliant bowler for limited time he played but his body couldnt sustain more than 46 tests. Its not about browney points, its just that he was not good enough for 100 tests or 250+ wickets like Ishant. Had Akhtar continued playing test cricket till 2011 (ODI retirement), he would have been spanked like Ross Taylor did and his career test avg would be greater than 30s. That is why I am saying, playing handful of games and showing mid 20 avg is not a parameter to judge greatness. Your endurance is the key and Akhtar was not good enough for 100 tests. Why dont you answer, if Philander or Bumrah better than Wasim, Waqar, Imran everyone bcoz avg says so? If bumrah carries on like this for another 50 tests, he would eventually be considered a better bowler then Wasim/waqar, if bumrah averages around 21-22/23 after 50 test matches and sustains his Sena record with a under 27 average in Asia I would put my hand up and say he is a better bowler than wasim.
Vickydev Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 Very good last over from Avesh. His rhythm seems so much this half of IPL express bowling 1
Austin 3:!6 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 12 minutes ago, Mesky99 said: Akthar put up a match winning spell against SL in the same world cup, he was literally breathing fire in the t20 series against Australia in 2009, he was still good enough. Bowling in T20 series is different from bowling in test matches. The fact that he was taken apart by Taylor and didnt even feature in India game suggest that he had passed it. Infact, as per Akhtar's own statement, he was unfit and his body was not ready for test cricket since 2005. So had he continue to play test cricket till 2011, his avg would be greater than 30
Austin 3:!6 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 12 minutes ago, Mesky99 said: If bumrah carries on like this for another 50 tests, he would eventually be considered a better bowler then Wasim/waqar, if bumrah averages around 21-22/23 after 50 test matches and sustains his Sena record with a under 27 average in Asia I would put my hand up and say he is a better bowler than wasim. See this is the problem...when mirror being shown, you want to add a caveat. Since Bumrah avg less than Wasim, Waqar, Imran or any bowler in Pak history...as per your own logic he is much more impactful. But you want him to maintain similar avg for next 50 tests to be considered better bcoz it dosent suit the agenda. But for Akhtar only 46 test matches is enough. You cant have the cake and cherry too. If lower avg means better bowler then Bumrah > All Pak bowlers. But you cant say Akhtar is better than Ishant bcoz his avg is less even though he only played 46 tests but Bumrah has to prove for next 50 tests. New guy 1
express bowling Posted October 4, 2021 Author Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Mesky99 said: Am not doubting India's current test pace stock, it's top quality and well gelled but backs ups have to improve quickly, I still feel the overall outlook to pace bowling in India has not changed much in junior or domestic cricket, the same avesh, prasidh, mavi etc dont bowl anywhere close to what they are capable of in first class cricket, we should be producing a lot more quick bowlers with the facilities each association has now. I agree with you partly. Even I feel that the backup pacers in India are a cause for concern to some extent. But the reasons for their slower-than-ideal development have to be considered on a case to case basis. 1) Team India have to strike when the iron is hot. Meaning they have to debut pacers when they are in top form at A-team level and Knock out stages of Ranji matches. Did not happen with Saini and Siraj. 2) Prasidh did not get to play Ranji for his state team because of trundlers like Vinay, Aravind and Mithun. If he was a veteran of 30+ FC matches, he would have been at a higher stage of development. He is not bowling at full pace because he is struggling with accuracy. 3) Avesh wants to bowl fast ... and MP supports quick bowlers too ... but he has been pegged back by inadequate fitness. 4) Tyagi is progressing as expected. 5) Mavi.has huge talent but probably lacks the mindset to be a fast bowler. He is like an old timer Indian from the 1980s in terms of how he thinks. 6) Nagarkoti wants to bowl fast but his body is not allowing him to progress. Things may improve when he is 25+ and becomes stronger. In a nutshell, Mavi is the only pacer I see with mindset issues. And Prasidh is the only pacer who has been pegged back by the trundler love of his state selectors. But the BCCI must have better plans for turning raw quick bowlers into finished products by the time they are 24 or 25. It is taking 3 to 4 years extra in most cases. This means debut by 22 or 23. Which in turn means sufficient FC experience by 22 or 23. But is is not happening in many cases. Edited October 4, 2021 by express bowling tweaker, Mosher and Mesky99 1 2
Suhaan Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, MultiB48 said: Bumrah is already a better bowler than wasim ,waqar and Imran outside Asia,but in Asia the Pakistanis are better. Shakoor tera ki kasoor Edited October 4, 2021 by Suhaan express bowling 1
Mesky99 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 12 hours ago, Austin 3:!6 said: See this is the problem...when mirror being shown, you want to add a caveat. Since Bumrah avg less than Wasim, Waqar, Imran or any bowler in Pak history...as per your own logic he is much more impactful. But you want him to maintain similar avg for next 50 tests to be considered better bcoz it dosent suit the agenda. But for Akhtar only 46 test matches is enough. You cant have the cake and cherry too. If lower avg means better bowler then Bumrah > All Pak bowlers. But you cant say Akhtar is better than Ishant bcoz his avg is less even though he only played 46 tests but Bumrah has to prove for next 50 tests. Ishant was being compared to akthar, bumrah has to maintain these numbers for over 50 test matches if he happens to better wasim akram, bumrah has terrific Sena numbers and a under 25 average in Asia would eventually elevate him ahead of Wasim, bumrah could end up with 70 test matches only and still finish a better bolwer than akram. 46 test match yardstick for akthar is enough because ishant in his first 46 tests matches was one of the worst test match bowlers ever and even in his next 46 matches he has not been good enough to match akthars impact. Simple you can go along with your silly little agenda, I speak what I see.
Suhaan Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) Ye unn dino ki baat hai.... Jab hamm jaanmaar ke laal gend daalte th Edited October 4, 2021 by Suhaan
Mesky99 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 12 hours ago, Austin 3:!6 said: Bowling in T20 series is different from bowling in test matches. The fact that he was taken apart by Taylor and didnt even feature in India game suggest that he had passed it. Infact, as per Akhtar's own statement, he was unfit and his body was not ready for test cricket since 2005. So had he continue to play test cricket till 2011, his avg would be greater than 30 He played test cricket in 2007 and was the best pacer in the India Pak series
Mesky99 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 12 hours ago, express bowling said: I agree with you partly. Even I feel that the backup pacers in India are a cause for concern to some extent. But the reasons for their slower-than-ideal development have to be considered on a case to case basis. 1) Team India have to strike when the iron is hot. Meaning they have to debut pacers when they are in top form at A-team level and Knock out stages of Ranji matches. Did not happen with Saini and Siraj. 2) Prasidh did not get to play Ranji for his state team because of trundlers like Vinay, Aravind and Mithun. If he was a veteran of 30+ FC matches, he would have been at a higher stage of development. He is not bowling at full pace because he is struggling with accuracy. 3) Avesh wants to bowl fast ... and MP supports quick bowlers too ... but he has been pegged back by inadequate fitness. 4) Tyagi is progressing as expected. 5) Mavi.has huge talent but probably lacks the mindset to be a fast bowler. He is like an old timer Indian from the 1980s in terms of how he thinks. 6) Nagarkoti wants to bowl fast but his body is not allowing him to progress. Things may improve when he is 25+ and becomes stronger. In a nutshell, Mavi is the only pacer I see with mindset issues. And Prasidh is the only pacer who has been pegged back by the trundler love of his state selectors. But the BCCI must have better plans for turning raw quick bowlers into finished products by the time they are 24 or 25. It is taking 3 to 4 years extra in most cases. This means debut by 22 or 23. Which in turn means sufficient FC experience by 22 or 23. But is is not happening in many cases. Prasidh has played enough list A cricket to have improved by now, he has gone on India A tours, so out of siraj, saini, mavi, avesh, prasidh only siraj has blossomed to a higher pedigree, we need more from the rest tweaker 1
express bowling Posted October 4, 2021 Author Posted October 4, 2021 Malik 1st over https://www.iplt20.com/video/243833/first-look-debutant-umran-malik-clocks-150kph Mosher 1
express bowling Posted October 4, 2021 Author Posted October 4, 2021 The thing is ... the system that produced the 2 W s and Shoaib is not there any more in Pakistan. So, the discussion is just of academic interest. It is like Indians feeling comfortable with how good Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly were against swing bowling. Yes, they were good but the current lot can't play swing bowling to save their lives. Let's live in 2021 rather than 1985 or 2005. Vickydev, Cricspin, Suhaan and 3 others 3 3
Malcolm Merlyn Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 No pakistani fast bowler has taken more than 200 wkts sunce waqar younis who made his debut in 1989. Why are they even up for discussion? Avg means nothing if there is no considerable sample size to compare.
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