Alam_dar Posted April 8, 2021 Author Posted April 8, 2021 On 4/7/2021 at 4:29 AM, SecondSlip said: Pakistan is the least educated and literate country in Asia after Afghanistan. India is so so far ahead that it’s not even funny to mention the 2 in the same sentence You are right about educational standard of India. Nevertheless, there is slight difference between IQ level and Educational level. I was impressed with the IQ level and political awareness of this little 10 years old girl.
Alam_dar Posted April 8, 2021 Author Posted April 8, 2021 1 hour ago, mishra said: Problem is, sometimes he so confusing that you wonder where he actually lives. Comparing India to Burma and so on. He probably doesn’t even knows or met a single Burmese who are probably one of the nicest peoples you come across. Mishra Ji, This was exactly my point. Buddhist Burmese are very nice people and normally hate violence, but still religious hatred between them and Muslims went to that stage where we saw the genocide of Rohingyas. And Indian society has to suffer through a lot more problems than Burmese society, and thus it has been extremely polarised. I am against religion of Islam, but human sufferings on mass level is not good for humanity. That is why I criticise Islam, so that Muslims could get rid of religion and religious practices, and could live peacefully with others.
sandeep Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 Reality is that Islam has bloody borders - everywhere. Even where they are a minority but have some size in numbers. That's a known problem. Stop projecting Islamic religious problems into other cultures and religions. coffee_rules, mishra, Vilander and 3 others 6
mishra Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Mishra Ji, This was exactly my point. Buddhist Burmese are very nice people and normally hate violence, but still religious hatred between them and Muslims went to that stage where we saw the genocide of Rohingyas. And Indian society has to suffer through a lot more problems than Burmese society, and thus it has been extremely polarised. I am against religion of Islam, but human sufferings on mass level is not good for humanity. That is why I criticise Islam, so that Muslims could get rid of religion and religious practices, and could live peacefully with others. What genocide you are talking about? How many got killed. Locals and administrators one fine morning decided to call it a day and forced illegal Bangladeshis out of country. Rohingyas are not Burmese. Over the years, They simply encroached into Burmese land as border is porous. Situation was similar to Nort Eastern part of India where Bangladeshi enter every day despite strong BSF presence on border. Its just that Bangladeshis who enter India also look Indian as there is strong social cultural linguistic and genetic similarities. Edited April 8, 2021 by mishra
Alam_dar Posted April 9, 2021 Author Posted April 9, 2021 5 hours ago, mishra said: What genocide you are talking about? How many got killed. Locals and administrators one fine morning decided to call it a day and forced illegal Bangladeshis out of country. Rohingyas are not Burmese. Over the years, They simply encroached into Burmese land as border is porous. Situation was similar to Nort Eastern part of India where Bangladeshi enter every day despite strong BSF presence on border. Its just that Bangladeshis who enter India also look Indian as there is strong social cultural linguistic and genetic similarities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide Outcome Destruction of many villages Tens of thousands of people killed and raped 25,000+ killed by 2018[1] 700,000+ refugees fled abroad The Burmese military were accused of ethnic cleansing and genocide by various United Nations agencies, International Criminal Court officials, human rights groups, journalists, and governments.[10][11][12] The UN[13][14][15] found evidence of wide-scale human rights violations, including extrajudicial killings; summary executions; gang rapes; arson of Rohingya villages, businesses, and schools; and infanticides. ===== Even if Rohingyas were illegals, still such genocide is a human crises. Younger generations of Rohingya are not at fault that they were born as illegals in this land. I feel if we could decrease the amount of religion and nationalism in our society, then we could bear each other much better and live more peacefully.
mishra Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 (edited) ^ Its on Wikipedia so it must be true when we know that no one was there to make such stats. I do feel that people may have died because of exodus. But outrightly saying its a genocide is absolute BS. They were forced to leave. Thats only truth. Also, Its not about religious nationalism but the threat perception from a particular religion. Followers of that religion follow it by book instead of reforming to modern views that includes family planning. While its true that minority of non Islamic people do not follow family planning but in case of Islam, its other way round, only meagre percentage follow family planning and that leads to situation like Bangladeshis crossing border and entering neighbouring countries. Burmese people poorer then Banglades don’t cross in Bangladesh or India and say this is my land. Fix that before blaming Burmese. Edited April 9, 2021 by mishra
Alam_dar Posted April 9, 2021 Author Posted April 9, 2021 31 minutes ago, mishra said: ^ Its on Wikipedia so it must be true Wikipedia could only be rejected if it does not provide the references. But in this case, the references have been properly provided, and these are UN, and International Court of Justice, and other Governments who have labelled it as a genocide. 34 minutes ago, mishra said: Also, Its not about religious nationalism but the threat perception from a particular religion. Followers of that religion follow it by book instead of reforming to modern views that includes family planning. True. 34 minutes ago, mishra said: that leads to situation like Bangladeshis crossing border and entering neighbouring countries. Burmese people poorer then Banglades don’t cross in Bangladesh or India and say this is my land. Despite being an Islamic country, Bangladesh indeed got a proper family planning project and it's present growth rate is even slightly lower than India. Rohingya moved to Rakhine State during the British era. And now several generation of Rohingyas have already born there. 46 minutes ago, mishra said: Burmese people poorer then Banglades don’t cross in Bangladesh or India and say this is my land. Fix that before blaming Burmese. True. But still mass scale killing of present generation of Rohingyas should not happen. In my opinion, this problem could only be fixed if we start criticising religions and make them to reform themselves. I have no problem if Islam is targeted as much as possible, but genocide/displacement of Muslim Civilian Population should not be considered as a fix/solution to this problem in today's world.
mishra Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Wikipedia could only be rejected if it does not provide the references. But in this case, the references have been properly provided, and these are UN, and International Court of Justice, and other Governments who have labelled it as a genocide. And far too many dont see it like that. Its simple case of forced eviction by Burmese government. Why not those calling it genocide invite them including Pakistanis.. Oh wait. Your army did same to Afghani refugees on border. Theie were no camps, there were no gas chambers like Middle east, No mass shootings, no mass forced conversions, no mass rapes, but modus was burning of properties. 41 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Despite being an Islamic country, Bangladesh indeed got a proper family planning project and it's present growth rate is even slightly lower than India. But fact doesn't change. Even in West , Muslims families have a extremely high number of kids. So why? Running a program and adaptation of program are two different things. In fact Islamic community is opposed such programs on basis of its religious inscription, while Institution of Islam controls the community simply wants numerical superiority. It doesnt care to question, that Allah ki den with Allah ki kishmat and following Allahs path, actually leads life under relative poverty to others. Do you support shutting them for good and prosecuted? 41 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Rohingya moved to Rakhine State during the British era. And now several generation of Rohingyas have already born there. You are again talking impractical stuff. Se my earlier update. Bangladeshi and Indians have similarities in various fronts apart from religion. But Go and stand in Burma and you will see you dont have any similarity with them. Brit left and left with a place called East Pakistan. Burmese were hospitable people and didnt ask these Bangladeshis to return but I can guarantee, root cause for their current stand must have been continous illegal immigration supported by these illegal Bangladeshis which caused Burmese people to clear their land. 41 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: In my opinion, this problem could only be fixed if we start criticising religions and make them to reform themselves. I have no problem if Islam is targeted as much as possible, but genocide/displacement of Muslim Civilian Population should not be considered as a fix/solution to this problem in today's world. Every religion is reformed or adapts modern laws or their count is negligible. Problem is Islam has huge count and can not reform and as it invades (invasion is not just militarily) from territory to territory, continent to continent, It will turn beautiful and advanced and places of learning like Takshshila into Pakistan or Parasis and Kashmiris will themselves find refuge far away from their homeland Persia and Kashmir. Edited April 9, 2021 by mishra coffee_rules 1
coffee_rules Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/2146541/rohingya-refugee-camps-48000-women-will-give-birth-year
mishra Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 4 hours ago, coffee_rules said: https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/2146541/rohingya-refugee-camps-48000-women-will-give-birth-year Quote An estimated 48,000 women will give birth in the camps this year. Those who were raped will be delivering imminently, mostly in secret and without medical care on the floors of bamboo shacks overlooking the Bangladesh-Myanmar border. Thats from 700,000 refugees who were displaced in August-Sept 2017. and estimated data is for whole year of 2018. You dont get Sept 2017 baby in December 2018, So if they were bcos of rape, they should have been born in March-May Story is as false as wikipaedia. It takes 9+- month for a baby. coffee_rules 1
Vilander Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 7 hours ago, Alam_dar said: in my opinion, this problem could only be fixed if we start criticising religions and make them to reform themselves. you are correct , but there is some context Hinduism in India- reformed with sankaracharya , vivekananda etc there has been multiple reformations from old narrative of mann pon penn sahadhanam illai ( land gold girl no compromise) to current day where an attack on hindu ethos is tolerated in the name of free speech almost on a daily basis, a prashanth bushan can advocate giving Kashmir away to pakistan, a rana ayub can say whater ever she wants against Hinduism, one can see many left wing and islamist handles spouting constant anti Hindu narrative in India, much of it goes unnoticed and unreacted to, cause that's how as a Nation India is, everyone's view point more or less finds a space. Lets take example of Islam in Pakistan or Saudi - blasphemy ,lashes, forced conversion, beheading, intolerance to even basis etc. so yeah you have no takers here, go reform your country and culture first. Don't preach. mishra and Clarke 2
Clarke Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 10 hours ago, Vilander said: so yeah you have no takers here, go reform your country and culture first. Don't preach. There's no payment for that, just risk of disappearing. Vilander 1
Alam_dar Posted April 10, 2021 Author Posted April 10, 2021 12 hours ago, mishra said: Thats from 700,000 refugees who were displaced in August-Sept 2017. and estimated data is for whole year of 2018. You dont get Sept 2017 baby in December 2018, So if they were bcos of rape, they should have been born in March-May Story is as false as wikipaedia. It takes 9+- month for a baby. Mishra ji, I have absolutely no idea how you came to this conclusion. The article has a date of 17 May, 2018 From where did you come about the date of December, 2018? === Killings and raping did occur, and it is a shame for humanity. There is no excuse to make killing of innocents and rape of women/girl to make permissible in name of extremism of Muslims.
Alam_dar Posted April 10, 2021 Author Posted April 10, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Vilander said: you are correct , but there is some context Hinduism in India- reformed with sankaracharya , vivekananda etc there has been multiple reformations from old narrative of mann pon penn sahadhanam illai ( land gold girl no compromise) to current day where an attack on hindu ethos is tolerated in the name of free speech almost on a daily basis, a prashanth bushan can advocate giving Kashmir away to pakistan, a rana ayub can say whater ever she wants against Hinduism, one can see many left wing and islamist handles spouting constant anti Hindu narrative in India, much of it goes unnoticed and unreacted to, cause that's how as a Nation India is, everyone's view point more or less finds a space. Lets take example of Islam in Pakistan or Saudi - blasphemy ,lashes, forced conversion, beheading, intolerance to even basis etc. so yeah you have no takers here, go reform your country and culture first. Don't preach. I don't understand this mentality. I am already active against Islam 7 days a week, but you have to recognise my right to link myself to whole world too as a human being. You want to LIMIT me only within Pakistan/Islam, which is absolutely wrong and you are usurping my basic human rights by doing so. If you think you have a right to criticise Pakistan for converting Hindu girls forcefully, then you must also accept my right to have my own opinion about Hindutva extremism and to criticise it. In fact, I have given up all hopes that you people would ever accept my rights to criticise Hindutva movement too. It is just like the behaviour of Muslims, where they also don't want to give right to criticise Islam by telling me that I have already left Islam and became an ex-Muslim, and thus I have no right more to criticise Islam. Edited April 10, 2021 by Alam_dar
Alam_dar Posted April 10, 2021 Author Posted April 10, 2021 18 hours ago, mishra said: Every religion is reformed or adapts modern laws or their count is negligible. Problem is Islam has huge count and can not reform and as it invades (invasion is not just militarily) from territory to territory, continent to continent, It will turn beautiful and advanced and places of learning like Takshshila into Pakistan or Parasis and Kashmiris will themselves find refuge far away from their homeland Persia and Kashmir. Mishra ji, I totally agree with your Reform argument. But I totally disagree with you while you using this argument for making Genocide permissible of even innocent civil Muslim population, including women.
mishra Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Mishra ji, I have absolutely no idea how you came to this conclusion. The article has a date of 17 May, 2018 From where did you come about the date of December, 2018? === Killings and raping did occur, and it is a shame for humanity. There is no excuse to make killing of innocents and rape of women/girl to make permissible in name of extremism of Muslims. Read it yourself. It says “estimated in 2018”. That article is actually copy of several similar articles and allmost all of others have not called it a rape. So , atleast i am not buying your propaganda. Edited April 10, 2021 by mishra
mishra Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 18 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Mishra ji, I totally agree with your Reform argument. But I totally disagree with you while you using this argument for making Genocide permissible of even innocent civil Muslim population, including women. There is no genocide. Priblen with you is you asume, given the scenario, people of other religion will behave like Islamist. So problemmis with you and people like you. IMO , Its forced eviction of illegal occupants
Alam_dar Posted April 10, 2021 Author Posted April 10, 2021 @mishra I am finished with the debate. I hope if you get a chance, then you will save the innocent lives without considering if they are Muslim men/women/children or not.
Vilander Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Alam_dar said: I don't understand this mentality. No one gives a fleeting *.
Alam_dar Posted April 10, 2021 Author Posted April 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Vilander said: No one gives a fleeting *. I have only this request to deal with me as human first, and not as Pakistani first. Clarke and Vilander 1 1
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