Why are atheists leaders/societies so cruel?

[mishra]

On 5/26/2021 at 5:16 PM, zen said:

Examples include Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, North Korea, ...  Ek se badhkar ek. Kill count in millions 

What about Truman(Hiroshima Nagasaki). Nothing beats that. Bombed one, saw what happened and then bombed again.  Also all 5 US president about including Kennedy and Nixon using cluster boms and phosphorus on civilians?

 

IMO, Truman tops all , even ahead of Hitler. 
 

thats from modern history only.

Edited May 27, 2021 by mishra

[zen]

20 minutes ago, Khota said:

Let us get to a good christain General Dyer. My relatives barely escaped Jallianwala Bagh.

 

That does not answer the question - why atheist leaders/society are so cruel? 

 

rest are random comments for e.g. when someone talks about most venomous snakes, someone makes a comments such as even ants can kill 

[Alam_dar]

3 hours ago, zen said:

That could be one of the reasons. If you are cruel, among the first things you would want to do is disassociate yourself with religion, which talks about "consequences".

 

I am afraid that religious people have wrong perceptions, and they blame atheism for those crimes, for which atheism is not responsible. Let me handle this debate as Religion vs Atheism, so that I could openly bring my arguments. 

 

First false claim of Religious People: MORALITY comes only from Religions, while Atheists could have no morality

 

The issue of MORALITY is the BASE upon which religious people further put the blame of killings of Hitler/Stalin upon Atheism. That is why, we first have to solve the problem of morality before going to the killings of Hitler/Stalin. 

 

Contrary to the claim of religious people, MORALITY does not come from religions, but it comes from HUMANITY with in us. 

 

Humanity within us is ENOUGH to guide us what is right and what is wrong. It is enough to tell us that telling a lie is wrong, deceiving others is wrong, harming others is wrong, killing them is wrong. You absolutely don't need a religion to tell us such things. Even a person who is born and raised up in a jungle would automatically know it, even if not a single word of religious teachings have reached him. 

 

Therefore, Humanity within us even guides all the Atheists too and make is completely clear to them that killing is wrong. 

 

 

Only Two Reasons, due to which still Killings take place

 

Despite the automatic guidance of humanity, still killings take place. And there are only 2 basic reasons for this. 

 

First Reason: Greed of the Worldly Things

Humanity (and as well as all religions) teach that corruption is wrong. Still we see religious people involved in corruption all over in our society. I saw Mullahs with big beards in Pakistani Police, and they were part of the Tableeghi Jamaats, still they were fully ready for corruption in order to make money. There are millions of religious people who are mentally ready for corruption, despite forbiddance from their religions.

Aurangzeb killed his brothers for his personal greed for the throne.  

 

In this case, they intentionally commit a crime against humanity and they themselves know that they are wrong.  

 

Second Reason: When other Ideologies convince people that killing others would result in betterment of humanity

Hitler also had humanity, which guided him that killing and eating animals is cruelty and thus he became vegetarian. But then he was convinced from this ideology that Jews are a danger to the humanity, and it would be a great service for humanity to eradicate them. 

 

Stalin and Mao and Castro, all of them were convinced that Capitalism is a danger for humanity and it would be a great service to humanity if they fight against capitalism and even killing millions of people is justified in this cause. Thus despite guidance of humanity that killing is a bad thing, still they went for killings for the sake of better results for humanity. 

 

Muslims thinks that Islamic Orders of imposing Sharia by force is for the betterment of humanity. Thus they even deem it ok to kill others in order to impose Sharia upon the world forcefully. And they do all these killings too for the sake of humanity. 

 

Humanity guides us automatically that caste system is wrong and all humans should have equal rights. But still High caste Hindus practiced the caste system for thousands of years while they were convinced that they are doing a service to humanity by doing so. 

 

In this case, people don't consider them criminals by killing/harming others, but they feel themselves to be a HERO for humanity while they have done a great service to humanity by killing the "bad" people. 

 

Conclusion:

 

As I have already written above:

• Atheism is not against Humanity
• Atheism is not against Morality
• Atheism is not in favour of killings

And the driving force behind the killings by Hitler/Stalin was not atheism, but their full believe that killing Jews is a service for humanity, or killing people for the imposition of communist system is ok, as it will ultimately defeat capitalistic system and will bring glory to the humanity. 

 

PS:

 

Religious people deny that Hitler was a religious person by bring different excuses. But they should open up their eyes and realise this fact that Hitler was not alone, but whole Germany Nation (Christians) were convinced that killing Jews will bring good for humanity. How then these religious people put the blame of madness of whole Christian German Nation upon atheism? 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Alam_dar

[Serpico]

On 5/26/2021 at 9:46 PM, zen said:

Examples include Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, North Korea, ...  Ek se badhkar ek. Kill count in millions 

the fact that you included hitler in this list as atheist shows that you are not looking for honest arguments. what happened, did some atheist hurt you today, is this how you are planning to cope? 

[zen]

10 minutes ago, Serpico said:

the fact that you included hitler in this list as atheist shows that you are not looking for honest arguments. what happened, did some atheist hurt you today, is this how you are planning to cope? 

 

Not interested in idiotic posts ... comment on the topic 

[Serpico]

18 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Not interested in idiotic posts ... comment on the topic 

your original post is idiotic. maybe you should correct it if you are interested in proper discussion 

[zen]

54 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

I am afraid that religious people have wrong perceptions, and they blame atheism for those crimes, for which atheism is not responsible. Let me handle this debate as Religion vs Atheism, so that I could openly bring my arguments. 

 

First false claim of Religious People: MORALITY comes only from Religions, while Atheists could have no morality

 

The issue of MORALITY is the BASE upon which religious people further put the blame of killings of Hitler/Stalin upon Atheism. That is why, we first have to solve the problem of morality before going to the killings of Hitler/Stalin. 

 

Contrary to the claim of religious people, MORALITY does not come from religions, but it comes from HUMANITY with in us. 

 

Humanity within us is ENOUGH to guide us what is right and what is wrong. It is enough to tell us that telling a lie is wrong, deceiving others is wrong, harming others is wrong, killing them is wrong. You absolutely don't need a religion to tell us such things. Even a person who is born and raised up in a jungle would automatically know it, even if not a single word of religious teachings have reached him. 

 

Therefore, Humanity within us even guides all the Atheists too and make is completely clear to them that killing is wrong. 

 

 

Only Two Reasons, due to which still Killings take place

 

Despite the automatic guidance of humanity, still killings take place. And there are only 2 basic reasons for this. 

 

First Reason: Greed of the Worldly Things

Humanity (and as well as all religions) teach that corruption is wrong. Still we see religious people involved in corruption all over in our society. I saw Mullahs with big beards in Pakistani Police, and they were part of the Tableeghi Jamaats, still they were fully ready for corruption in order to make money. There are millions of religious people who are mentally ready for corruption, despite forbiddance from their religions.

Aurangzeb killed his brothers for his personal greed for the throne.  

 

In this case, they intentionally commit a crime against humanity and they themselves know that they are wrong.  

 

Second Reason: When other Ideologies convince people that killing others would result in betterment of humanity

Hitler also had humanity, which guided him that killing and eating animals is cruelty and thus he became vegetarian. But then he was convinced from this ideology that Jews are a danger to the humanity, and it would be a great service for humanity to eradicate them. 

 

Stalin and Mao and Castro, all of them were convinced that Capitalism is a danger for humanity and it would be a great service to humanity if they fight against capitalism and even killing millions of people is justified in this cause. Thus despite guidance of humanity that killing is a bad thing, still they went for killings for the sake of better results for humanity. 

 

Muslims thinks that Islamic Orders of imposing Sharia by force is for the betterment of humanity. Thus they even deem it ok to kill others in order to impose Sharia upon the world forcefully. And they do all these killings too for the sake of humanity. 

 

Humanity guides us automatically that caste system is wrong and all humans should have equal rights. But still High caste Hindus practiced the caste system for thousands of years while they were convinced that they are doing a service to humanity by doing so. 

 

In this case, people don't consider them criminals by killing/harming others, but they feel themselves to be a HERO for humanity while they have done a great service to humanity by killing the "bad" people. 

 

Conclusion:

 

As I have already written above:

• Atheism is not against Humanity
• Atheism is not against Morality
• Atheism is not in favour of killings

And the driving force behind the killings by Hitler/Stalin was not atheism, but their full believe that killing Jews is a service for humanity, or killing people for the imposition of communist system is ok, as it will ultimately defeat capitalistic system and will bring glory to the humanity. 

 

PS:

 

Religious people deny that Hitler was a religious person by bring different excuses. But they should open up their eyes and realise this fact that Hitler was not alone, but whole Germany Nation (Christians) were convinced that killing Jews will bring good for humanity. How then these religious people put the blame of madness of whole Christian German Nation upon atheism? 

 

 

 

Buddy, 

 

a) No one has claimed anything on mortality 

b) People also know the motivation to kill 

 

the discussing is beyond such points where atheist leaders/society have killed millions (fact). Mao for e.g. has killed up to 80M people. What makes these guys so cruel? Is disassociating with religion a step to not care about the basic laws? Do such weirdos (not taking about some guy in the neighborhood labeling himself as an atheist) have a tendency to gravitate to atheism?  Is it a warning sign that a leader claiming to be an atheist can take suffering to the next level? 

 

I know that in the past many religious leaders have killed many as well but that is mostly in the era where the sword ruled. I am mainly focused on the recent past. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Serpico said:

your original post is idiotic. maybe you should correct it if you are interested in proper discussion 

 

I am already having proper discussion with good posters ... A fool taking an opportunity to unnecessary make personal attacks including on my recovery is unwarranted 

[Serpico]

Just now, zen said:

 

I am already having proper discussion with good posters ... A fool taking an opportunity to unnecessary make personal attacks including on my recovery is unwarranted 

what recovery, what are you talking about. you presented a dishonest premise and I'm calling it out. I've seen other posters also call it out, but you are not responding to them. Simply replying to those who take your bait is not proper discussion

[zen]

Just now, Serpico said:

what recovery, what are you talking about. you presented a dishonest premise and I'm calling it out. I've seen other posters also call it out, but you are not responding to them. Simply replying to those who take your bait is not proper discussion

 

I don't really care if people think Hitler was religious (it does not change anything). Per me (and many others), he was not period  ... to come out in an undereducated fashion terming dishonesty is foolish ... don't act oversmart (you try to do that), ask question if you are unsure, and stick to the topic 

[Serpico]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

 

I don't really care if people think Hitler was religious (it does not change anything). Per me (and many others), he was not period  ... to come out in an undereducated fashion terming dishonesty is foolish ... don't act oversmart (you try to do that), ask question if you are unsure, and stick to the topic 

Stick to copy pasting cricinfo stat tables if you're so triggered by people questioning your dishonest arguments. You are the one acting oversmart here, thinking you can just spew whatever bs you want and people should just role with it. Hitler claimed to be religious through out his life, even if he criticized catholic church at various points for political reasons. He never claimed to be atheist and never asked his soldiers to fight for atheism. Nazi propaganda is full of religious iconography stolen from bunch of religions including the fricking swastika and constantly mentioned "Aryan/German God" in his propaganda. On what basis did you confirm that he was atheist? 

 

Churchill and every American president since ww2 killed more people than stalin or any other atheist btw

[zen]

1 hour ago, Serpico said:

Stick to copy pasting cricinfo stat tables if you're so triggered by people questioning your dishonest arguments. You are the one acting oversmart here, thinking you can just spew whatever bs you want and people should just role with it. Hitler claimed to be religious through out his life, even if he criticized catholic church at various points for political reasons. He never claimed to be atheist and never asked his soldiers to fight for atheism. Nazi propaganda is full of religious iconography stolen from bunch of religions including the fricking swastika and constantly mentioned "Aryan/German God" in his propaganda. On what basis did you confirm that he was atheist? 

 

Churchill and every American president since ww2 killed more people than stalin or any other atheist btw

 

I am calling out an unnecessary attempt on trying to make a personal attack by claiming dishonesty foolishly on an irrelevant issue. Whether Hitler is religious or atheist is irrelevant to the overall discussion, which includes many other leaders. Living in subcon, you are probably used to trying to digress on some irrelevant point (for which you would be thrown out of the room elsewhere). Take Hitler off the table and the discussion is still on period 

 

Coming back to Hitler, he is said to have turned atheist (anti-Christaian) later on (made a post on this somewhere on this thread). There are numerous accounts available on the internet including this on washington post https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/  ... It is also well understood that atheist like to claim that Hitler was religious ... For me, Hitler = atheist 

 

Btw, many believe likes of Churchill to be atheist/agnostic too 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by zen

[Khota]

5 hours ago, zen said:

 

That does not answer the question - why atheist leaders/society are so cruel? 

 

rest are random comments for e.g. when someone talks about most venomous snakes, someone makes a comments such as even ants can kill 

OK. Look at all Latin American countries where they are good catholics but killings are going on all the time.

[Khota]

@zen kindly explain crusades to rest of the forum members.

[zen]

58 minutes ago, Khota said:

OK. Look at all Latin American countries where they are good catholics but killings are going on all the time.

 

 

57 minutes ago, Khota said:

@zen kindly explain crusades to rest of the forum members.

 

 

As I said,random examples like abc did this but xyz did that too is not a retort or not even answering anything. People know what is going on and has gone around. The discussion here is beyond such topics with the focus on atheist leaders/states mainly because of the some of the most horrific crimes have been committed by them. For e.g. Mao is said to have killed anywhere from 30M to 80M ppl 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by zen

[Khota]

@zen what happened to the indigeneous Indian population after Columbus? This is not random, you can see a trend.

[zen]

34 minutes ago, Khota said:

@zen what happened to the indigeneous Indian population after Columbus? This is not random, you can see a trend.

You are talking about ppl living in the time of the sword. For that we do not need to go outside India ... We are therefore also talking about relatively recent times 

 

All these does not answer anything about the question on atheist leaders/states being “super” cruel 

[rkt.india]

It's the power, nothing to do with being atheist.

[Sean Bradley]

Every country in the past had one dictator. We are lucky to have two

 

 

[zen]