Does winning ICC tournaments reflect how good a team is?

[SRT100]

17 hours ago, kirkutfan said:

When India won the 1983 World Cup, it was an amazing achievement. But it does not take away from the fact that West Indies were the dominant team of that time. In fact that was what made it great. We won a tournament that had stronger teams in it. But we did not become the best in the world because of it. Before and after that tournament we played Pakistan and West Indies in bilateral series and they cleaned our clocks. Now, we are in a bit of an opposite situation. We have a team that, overall, wins more often than it loses, typically gets to a semi final point in ICC tournaments but doesn’t take home the big prize. As a fan, I prefer to follow this team over the team we had in 1983. I like it that this team that goes into every series with a reasonable chance to win. So, while it would have been better if we also won ICC tournaments, in an imperfect world I will go for a team that generally does well year in year out over a team that wakes up once in a while to produce that miracle tournament win.

 

Im not so sure about that.

 

India back this up in the 1985 World Championships in Australia, where it is was a bona fide "World Cup".

[goose]

i think if you're smashing everyone home and abroad in tests AND you then win world cups too it adds to your aura of invincibility. at least that was how i felt about the Aussies. without the first part the second part is just a transient moment of ecstasy.

[Jay]

8 minutes ago, goose said:

i think if you're smashing everyone home and abroad in tests AND you then win world cups too it adds to your aura of invincibility. at least that was how i felt about the Aussies. without the first part the second part is just a transient moment of ecstasy.

Look at the calibre of odi teams Aussies of 2000 had to face. It was weak. S.africa being the only challenger and even they were exactly great in odi as they lost to much weaker Indian and Pakistani sides In icc tournaments like champions trophy. 

 

2000-2006, I don't recall any Asian team being a threat whatsoever. All had poor bowlers barring shoaib for our padosis. N.z were much weaker than what they are now. Middling side. 

England were terrible at the time. 

 

India were a good side but had terrible bowlers and a pretty mediocre middle order with no power game. 

 

Lanka was decent but they had basically 2 batsmen. Jayasuriya was useless vs pace. Watch every time he had to face srinath. He struggled. 

 

Bowling had malinga and vaas. Nothing extraordinary. 

[Jay]

3 hours ago, SRT100 said:

 

Im not so sure about that.

 

India back this up in the 1985 World Championships in Australia, where it is was a bona fide "World Cup".

I agree. That was a brilliant achievement. To back it up with a champions trophy win post WC shows the teams quality. 

 

But we did lose 5 0 or something to w.indies right after the world cup which was strange. 

 

Even post 2011, we lost a series at home to pak albeit we dint play shami and umesh for 2 of those games. 

We lost to south africa 2 0 on bouncy wickets In 2012 -13. Yet we won the champions trophy when it mattered. Guess we dint take bilaterals seriously. 

 

For me both matters. We need to dominate bilaterals whilst rotating players. That shows true dominance. Then we must peak at the right time to win WCs. 

[deathmonger]

4 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Rohit was ODI cricketer for 5 years had a beast of a ODI run at home scored 209 vs Australia at home...  Dhawan in his prime CT success & bullied Australia at home.  Same goes for Kohli.  They were not some 19 year olds. 

 

yeah. but they were not 30 years old too which is when a batsman peaks. they were in their mid 20s.

[deathmonger]

rohit had only started opening in 2013 and was good in patches.

 

2016 onwards is when he became a beast - hitting centuries overseas too.

[Lone Wolf]

Just now, deathmonger said:

 

yeah. but they were not 30 years old too which is when a batsman peaks. they were in their mid 20s.

Nah not everything is about peak otherwise these guys would have steamrolled everyone in 2015 WC as well.   When you are 7-8 years old in international arena that's where the peak starts ideally. 

[Jay]

21 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Nah not everything is about peak otherwise these guys would have steamrolled everyone in 2015 WC as well.   When you are 7-8 years old in international arena that's where the peak starts ideally. 

Rahane

Mohit sharma

Ashwin on those pitches

Kphli classic choke did us in during 2015 WC semi final. 

 

Australia were the better side in those conditions anyway. 

 

 

[kohli]

8 hours ago, Jay said:

steven smith  averages 62. goat batsman of all time. equal to 2 or 3 players in top form

david warner averages 48. world class

labushagne averages 55 plus. world class

green - future superstar

puckwoski - another star in the making. averages 50 on those bouncy wickets.

 

now the bowling.

cummins - their best player. on par with mcgrath

starc - better than lee

hazelwood - as good as gilesspie

lyon - best spinner after warne for aussies. 

 

they would mutilate those teams. lets get real. 

 

Lol this current Aussie didn’t even won test series in Bangladesh, but according to you they would beat 90 saffer & 70 Aussie 

 

[Lone Wolf]

1 minute ago, kohli said:

Lol this current Aussie didn’t even won test series in Bangladesh, but according to you they would beat 90 saffer & 70 Aussie 

 

Current Aussie side is good enough side actually.  Let me tell you right after India beat a Australia B side in 2019 without Smith & Warner...  Sri lanka arrived & were thumped brutally by an Aus C side 2-0 with several debutants.   Same Sri lanka went next month to South Africa & beat Saffers 2-0 under Faf's Captaincy.   The quality of both Australia C & SA main side got exposed. 

 

Only India under Rahane could have beaten Australia's full strength side...  That was a generational win imo.  No mean feat whatsoever.  Australia isn't weak they may not be invincible like their earlier side but they are no less in quality... They only sledge very lightly compared to older times. 

[kohli]

9 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Current Aussie side is good enough side actually.  Let me tell you right after India beat a Australia B side in 2019 without Smith & Warner...  Sri lanka arrived & were thumped brutally by an Aus C side 2-0 with several debutants.   Same Sri lanka went next month to South Africa & beat Saffers 2-0 under Faf's Captaincy.   The quality of both Australia C & SA main side got exposed. 

 

Only India under Rahane could have beaten Australia's full strength side...  That was a generational win imo.  No mean feat whatsoever.  Australia isn't weak they may not be invincible like their earlier side but they are no less in quality... They only sledge very lightly compared to older times. 

Did current Aussie won anything outside Oceania +wi ? They are good side in home but medicore in away.

lost in ind

lost in sa

draw in eng

lost in sl 

draw in bang

lost in uae 

won in nz& wi

[Jay]

27 minutes ago, kohli said:

Lol this current Aussie didn’t even won test series in Bangladesh, but according to you they would beat 90 saffer & 70 Aussie 

 

At home they would mutilate both teams. Let's b real. 

 

Weak Aussie side of 2012 smashed saffers away in s.afrixa. 

[Lone Wolf]

34 minutes ago, kohli said:

Did current Aussie won anything outside Oceania +wi ? They are good side in home but medicore in away.

lost in ind

lost in sa

draw in eng

lost in sl 

draw in bang

lost in uae 

won in nz& wi

They would easily beat SA right now anywhere...  unlucky they could have qualified for finals had SA tour not got cancelled. 

As far as winning away goes yes they are not that good as they Once were.   They did come closer to beat us in 2017 & dare I say Rahane the captain saved us yet again...  That Dharamsala test was done as soon as They won the toss & batted..  Kuldeep bowled a series winning spell that day when Ash & co were clueless.

Anyways beating full strength Australia at home is a massive achievement still.  As I said they are not invincible anymore but they are not weak at all especially at home. 

[Jay]

3 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

They would easily beat SA right now anywhere...  unlucky they could have qualified for finals had SA tour not got cancelled. 

As far as winning away goes yes they are not that good as they Once were.   They did come closer to beat us in 2017 & dare I say Rahane the captain saved us yet again...  That Dharamsala test was done as soon as They won the toss & batted..  Kuldeep bowled a series winning spell that day when Ash & co were clueless.

Anyways beating full strength Australia at home is a massive achievement still.  As I said they are not invincible anymore but they are not weak at all especially at home. 

People are severely underestimating how good this Aussie side is. It's easily their second best side of all time after punter's Aussie side. 

 

They were unlucky to make finals as you said. Pulling out of s.africs tour hurt their chances. 

 

Not to mention they butchered the phony champions kiwi who have their best ever team of all time 3 0 at home and they also won 2 0 away the last time they toured n.z. 

 

This Aussie side would definitely beat 90s saffers. 

[kohli]

5 minutes ago, Jay said:

People are severely underestimating how good this Aussie side is. It's easily their second best side of all time after punter's Aussie side. 

 

They were unlucky to make finals as you said. Pulling out of s.africs tour hurt their chances. 

 

Not to mention they butchered the phony champions kiwi who have their best ever team of all time 3 0 at home and they also won 2 0 away the last time they toured n.z. 

 

This Aussie side would definitely beat 90s saffers. 

Nobody saying they are weak side, they are still very good at home but medicore away.second best Aussie side didn’t win test series in Bangladesh, lost 3-0 in sl.

[Jay]

6 hours ago, kohli said:

Nobody saying they are weak side, they are still very good at home but medicore away.second best Aussie side didn’t win test series in Bangladesh, lost 3-0 in sl.

Cause their target is india. They don't care about other Asia tours. 

 

Remember last time before 2017 vs India they got hammered by Lanka's and drew with Bangladesh. Yet they fought hard and nearly managed to draw vs invincible indian side in India. 

Although India did have several injuries. 

[Jay]

England iirc before their memorable wins in Australia and India albeit vs weakened versions with old psst it has been players in 2012 came after back to back losses to Pakistan and Lanka. 

 

Big teams usually use these other lower ranked teams as practice for the big series that is india and australia. It'd true. 

 

 

[Jay]

If you ask me who I fear the most even now? Australia. 

[Jay]

If you ask me who I fear the most even now? Australia. 

[Gollum]

9 hours ago, Jay said:

Rahane

Played a blinder against RSA.

9 hours ago, Jay said:

Mohit sharma

Was good.

9 hours ago, Jay said:

Ashwin on those pitches

One of the best bowlers in that WC, 25 avg and ER of 4.2 on those pattas.....only saving grace in SF as well.

 

Did you even watch that WC?