What is a typical Indian wicket?

[R!TTER]

So I see this brought up more often than not, especially by the evergreen whinging poms, that Indian pitches turn square & never get better as the game progresses!

 

The fact is depending on the pitch, where it is played, weather at the time as well as grass on the wicket Indian pitches can also get better on day 2 or 3, even day 5 in some instances - as the pitch becomes slower, not necessarily wrt deterioration.

 

What's your ideal "Indian pitch" or to be more specific what in your mind is a typical Indian wicket?

 

 Feel free to add multiple examples!

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

This pitch was very slow. There was no pace. Batsman could camp on the backfoot and play their shots.  As the game goes on natural variations are coming into play. India has a good chance they could collapse here.

[First class]

Time has changed and so should be Indian wickets.  In recent years Indian pacers have done better than the spinners . With such a large country , Indians can make every kind of wicket at different centers.  They should make lively pace friendly wickets for some of matches during a series.  I remember last year I saw a Ranjhi trophy match on Willow TV and it was being played on a lovely green top and at every single ball, bowler and fielders were getting excited. That's the only way the newly found fast bowling culture in India can be kept alive and improved and they will win more games in SENA too. 

[R!TTER]

9 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

This pitch was very slow. There was no pace.

Kanpur always plays like that, I've seen even lower/slower tracks here. there's only so much you can do with the type of soil here. Maybe a bit of grass would slow down the pitch deterioration but that's about it.

[sensible-indian]

Mumbai 2012

Chennai 2013

Mumbai 2016

 

Those are perfect pitches for me.

 

There is turn, bounce and value for strokes.

 

Chennai 2013 and Mumbai 2016 were HIGH SCORING turners.

 

Both sides scored tons of runs.

 

Batsmen & bowlers got value out of the pitch.

 

This makes cricket fun.

 

Complete opposite to the current pitch where the turn is less and so is the value for your strokes.

 

The Western criticism is aimed at the wrong problem.

 

It's not about the turn but the bounce.

 

You need true pitches.

 

These dibbly dobbly low bounce slow turners are a farce....almost up there with useless Asian pattas.

 

High turn + uneven bounce = complete lottery.

 

It's the bloody bounce which is the culprit imho.

Edited November 27, 2021 by sensible-indian

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, First class said:

Time has changed and so should be Indian wickets.  In recent years Indian pacers have done better than the spinners . With such a large country , Indians can make every kind of wicket at different centers.  They should make lively pace friendly wickets for some of matches during a series.  I remember last year I saw a Ranjhi trophy match on Willow TV and it was being played on a lovely green top and at every single ball, bowler and fielders were getting excited. That's the only way the newly found fast bowling culture in India can be kept alive and improved and they will win more games in SENA too. 

 

I don't think India needs to produce specific type of wickets. India has more types of pitches than anywhere in the world. Mohali/Wankhede/Eden Gardens/Chepauk/Chinnaswamy stadium/Ahmedabad.. they are all different in some way. A reason why seamers do enjoy bowling here compared to say UAE or Bangladesh.  

 

 

[First class]

A true wicket is the one where technique,  not luck is required to score runs , whether its a spinning track or a fast one. 

[sensible-indian]

8 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Mumbai 2012

Chennai 2013

Mumbai 2016

 

Those are my perfect pitches for me.

 

There is turn, bounce and value for strokes.

 

Chennai 2013 and Mumbai 2016 were HIGH SCORING turners.

 

Both sides scored tons of runs.

 

Batsmen & bowlers got value out of the pitch.

 

This makes cricket fun.

 

Complete opposite to the current pitch where the turn is less and so is the value for your strokes.

 

The Western criticism is aimed at the wrong problem.

 

It's not about the turn but the bounce.

 

You need true pitches.

 

These dibbly dobbly low bounce slow turners are a farce....almost up there with useless Asian pattas.

 

High turn + uneven bounce = complete lottery.

 

It's the bloody bounce which is the culprit imho.

Just to add to this:

 

Screw the western criticism.

 

Come to India.

 

Learn to play in our pitches.

 

I would rather have a turner that spins from day 1...than a patta that turns from day 3.

 

Ideally would love pitches with something for everyone but it's not a requirement.

 

Forget about this whole concept of pitches having to aid pacers on Day 1-3 and spinners on Day 4-5.

Edited November 27, 2021 by sensible-indian

[R!TTER]

10 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

A reason why seamers do enjoy bowling here compared to say UAE or Bangladesh.  

Right & that's why WI absolutely dominated India at their peak! There are some venues where pace/movement or both are on offer specially during the winters, we have more variations in our pitches than anywhere else in the world probably with the exception of Oz - that's mainly down to the fact that it's also more than 2x as big in terms of their land mass.

[sensible-indian]

2 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

The western criticism is sound because Axar Patel and even Ashwin are mediocre bowlers compared to Warne, Hasaranga, Kumble and Murali etc.

 

Those guys could get wickets in any track and therefore made an even match up with bat and ball.

 

What we see now is just low and slow turners. Even really good batsman can get out with a low bouncing ball which is unplayable like we saw with some wickets Axar got.

 

This is not skill. Yet Indian fans will celebrate at anything and how we beat WTC Champs New Zealand when underlying problems of our batting and bowling barring Bumrah is a serious issue that will haunt us for many major tournaments.

 

These bilateral bashing is what slowed down our worldcup wins as Dhawan, Kohli and Rohit scored big and covered up middle order deficinences and also their own lack of clutch performances under pressure as their own spots were secure due to Stat padding.

[kruiser]

8 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

The western criticism is sound because Axar Patel and even Ashwin are mediocre bowlers compared to Warne, Hasaranga, Kumble and Murali etc.

 

Those guys could get wickets in any track and therefore made an even match up with bat and ball.

 

What we see now is just low and slow turners. Even really good batsman can get out with a low bouncing ball which is unplayable like we saw with some wickets Axar got.

 

This is not skill. Yet Indian fans will celebrate at anything and how we beat WTC Champs New Zealand when underlying problems of our batting and bowling barring Bumrah is a serious issue that will haunt us for many major tournaments.

 

These bilateral bashing is what slowed down our worldcup wins as Dhawan, Kohli and Rohit scored big and covered up middle order deficinences and also their own lack of clutch performances under pressure as their own spots were secure due to Stat padding.

What then stops the western spinners from taking wickets and winning matches here?

[R!TTER]

11 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

The western criticism is sound because Axar Patel and even Ashwin are mediocre bowlers compared to Warne, Hasaranga, Kumble and Murali etc.

So you're saying these players didn't get the benefit of home conditions, home umpires or no DRS? DRS works both ways, bowlers get more chances but also away batters get better chance to survive howling appeals against (home) bowlers.

 

11 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

What we see now is just low and slow turners.

That's just one pitch, what about Chennai first test against Eng was it good just because Eng won? Was it fair(er) as compared to this test, because that pitch was dodo dead for at least two days! When the pitch started turning Root & everyone of the English batters danced like a ballerina. Ahmedabad pitch last test - not fair because Eng lost?

 

Your arguments are rather weak, over the last 10 years we've produced probably more variety of wickets as compared to anywhere else in the world. Of course we're not going to serve green seamers to Eng/Oz or NZ unless there's a snaking Manohar in there somewhere!

Edited November 27, 2021 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

The western criticism is sound because Axar Patel and even Ashwin are mediocre bowlers compared to Warne, Hasaranga, Kumble and Murali etc.

 

Those guys could get wickets in any track and therefore made an even match up with bat and ball.

 

What we see now is just low and slow turners. Even really good batsman can get out with a low bouncing ball which is unplayable like we saw with some wickets Axar got.

 

This is not skill. Yet Indian fans will celebrate at anything and how we beat WTC Champs New Zealand when underlying problems of our batting and bowling barring Bumrah is a serious issue that will haunt us for many major tournaments.

 

These bilateral bashing is what slowed down our worldcup wins as Dhawan, Kohli and Rohit scored big and covered up middle order deficinences and also their own lack of clutch performances under pressure as their own spots were secure due to Stat padding.

 

"western criticism" . Nobody is criticizing us. All i see is a self loathing post (assuming you are an Indian fan). If you cannot appreciate how well we played in Australia with an B string side and in England inspite of Kohli's selections then you are  a certified self loather. India did well to reach the final. Unfortunately we ended up playing in cloudy English conditions only condition where NZ has upper hand over India. I am pretty sure India will beat NZ in Australia as well.  Besides this NZ side is an ATG Test side led by a sharp captain. They are world no.1 ranked side. You sound like it is easy to beat NZ?  England sure couldn't beat NZ in England. On the other hand India is plagued with senior culture. So give some credit to our bowlers.

 

 

ABout the pitches, NZ is not going to do zilch if the pitch doesn't offer swing. That is how the conditions will be when we tour there. They won't greet us with a turning track.

[vvvslaxman]

11 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

So you're saying these players didn't get the benefit of home conditions, home umpires or no DRS? DRS works both ways, bowlers get more chances but also away batters get better chance to survive howling appeals against (home) bowlers.

 

That's just one pitch, what about Chennai first test against Eng was it good just because Eng won? Was it fair(er) as compared to this test, because that pitch was dodo dead for at least two days! When the pitch started turning Root & everyone of the English batters danced like a ballerina. Ahmedabad pitch last test - not fair because Eng lost?

 

Your arguments are rather weak, over the last 10 years we've produced probably more variety of wickets as compared to anywhere else in the world. Of course we're not going to serve green seamers to Eng/Oz or NZ unless there's a snaking Manohar in there somewhere!

 

 

Actually ball was swinging big on day 1. Do we see such conditions in NZ. Turning on day 1. Our self loathing posters make up the story that we use pitches that overwhelmingly favor us. That is not the case. Anderson Enjoyed swing here. So did Southee and Kyle.

[R!TTER]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Our self loathing posters make up the story that we use pitches that overwhelmingly favor us.

Kolkata second(?) test vs NZ 2016, BK outbowled their seamers & we completely routed them! I don't remember a single turner in NZ in over 30+ years. Don't remember anything from before I was born 

[cowboysfan]

this is not an ideal pitch,its so slow even our spinners are struggling on it

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, R!TTER said:

Kolkata second(?) test vs NZ 2016, BK outbowled their seamers & we completely routed them! I don't remember a single turner in NZ in over 30+ years. Don't remember anything from before I was born 

 

yes. Umesh/Shami average in the early 20s in recent times at home. Our fans get carried away with padosis narrative that we need spin tracks to beat others.  Also in terms of sheer skill Ashwin is probably the best India has ever produced. Due to being heavily overexposed across formats, leagues he had to keep reinventing himself. 

[R!TTER]

3 minutes ago, cowboysfan said:

this is not an ideal pitch,its so slow even our spinners are struggling on it

It isn't ideal but it's also about the conditions, Kanpur is always slow & low - you could argue with the inter up north watering it much or leaving too much grass would be like hacking your leg on to a saw! The pitch wouldn't deteriorate & we'd leave too much assistance for NZ. This track is more suited to India for sure, any different & it may have been a lot more in favor of NZ - that is something which we absolutely cannot afford given the main players currently not playing & this just being a 2 test series.

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, cowboysfan said:

this is not an ideal pitch,its so slow even our spinners are struggling on it

 

It was the same last time as well 5 years back at Kanpur. Same Latham was dogged in defense. Ashwin had to bowl a lot of overs to take 10 wickets

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/nz-tour-of-india-2016-17-1030193/india-vs-new-zealand-1st-test-1030213/full-scorecard

 

[rangeelaraja]

39 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

The western criticism is sound because Axar Patel and even Ashwin are mediocre bowlers compared to Warne, Hasaranga, Kumble and Murali etc.

 

Those guys could get wickets in any track and therefore made an even match up with bat and ball.

 

What we see now is just low and slow turners. Even really good batsman can get out with a low bouncing ball which is unplayable like we saw with some wickets Axar got.

 

This is not skill. Yet Indian fans will celebrate at anything and how we beat WTC Champs New Zealand when underlying problems of our batting and bowling barring Bumrah is a serious issue that will haunt us for many major tournaments.

 

These bilateral bashing is what slowed down our worldcup wins as Dhawan, Kohli and Rohit scored big and covered up middle order deficinences and also their own lack of clutch performances under pressure as their own spots were secure due to Stat padding.

 

Who the hell is "Hasaranga" ?

 

Murali got beaten black and blue in India that is supposed to favor his bowling.  Go check his test match record in India. Warne too suffered the same fate as Murali.

 

Murali got hammered in Australia too. Not denying that he is a great bowler. But if you are going to prick holes, then, nobody performs everywhere.

 

Ashwin is a World Class test spinner - one of the all time greats by the time he hangs his boots with 500 plus test wickets. 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by rangeelaraja