Does Ben Stokes seem better player just because other team members are mediocre in England test team?

[Vijy]

7 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

This thread is looking better with each passing series.

 

Looks disinterested. Playing cameos or nothing.

Eng team is good enough that he can sit back and be a Brearley

[vvvslaxman]

5 hours ago, Vijy said:

Eng team is good enough that he can sit back and be a Brearley

 

When absolutely necessary he bowls a few overs especially if they need to bounce someone out he bowls.  In 5th test he was the one who took out Kohli/Jaddu finished with 4/33.  His batting has gone down over a period partly because he is too consumed with 'bazball'.

[Adamant]

He is a good allrounder and would be picked by all the teams but he is  a level below Kapil Dev.

[Majestic]

Stokes, Shakib and Jadeja are at same level. 

 

A level below Kapil Dev.

 

Hierarchy is :

 

Sobers/Imran/Kallis

 

K Miller/Botham/Kapil

 

Cairns/ T Greig / Flintoff / Stokes /Jadeja/ Shakib

 

 

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

Stokes, Shakib and Jadeja are at same level. 

 

A level below Kapil Dev.

 

Hierarchy is :

 

Sobers/Imran/Kallis

 

K Miller/Botham/Kapil

 

Cairns/ T Greig / Flintoff / Stokes /Jadeja/ Shakib

 

 

not really. shakib > jaddu > stokes; all 3 are as good as kapil, some may even be better.

 

and flintoff did little of note in tests barring a couple of big series. mcmillan, for example, was much better. had a batting avg of nearly 40 and an excellent fielder + useful bowler. pollock > cairns as well

Edited June 18, 2023 by Vijy

[Majestic]

28 minutes ago, Vijy said:

not really. shakib > jaddu > stokes; all 3 are as good as kapil, some may even be better.

 

and flintoff did little of note in tests barring a couple of big series. mcmillan, for example, was much better. had a batting avg of nearly 40 and an excellent fielder + useful bowler. pollock > cairns as well

I don't rate Shakib. He has done nothing in Aus, SA and England. Quality of opposition matters. His stats are skewed because he has played minnows a lot more than Stokes or Jadeja does.

 

Kapil better than all three for me 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Majestic

[Vijy]

7 minutes ago, Majestic said:

I don't rate Shakib. He has done nothing in Aus, SA and England. Quality of opposition matters. His stats are skewed because he has played minnows a lot more than Stokes or Jadeja does.

 

Kapil better than all three for me 

what do you think kapil did in Eng? He also didn't play SA. Bowled well in Aus, but batted poorly.

 

Shakib played very few tests in Eng and SA, but did well in both places (esp latter) with the ball. In NZ, he was excellent with the bat.

 

Just rose tinted glasses for Kapil. even more so for freddie "useless" flintoff

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

what do you think kapil did in Eng? He also didn't play SA. Bowled well in Aus, but batted poorly.

 

Shakib played very few tests in Eng and SA, but did well in both places (esp latter) with the ball. In NZ, he was excellent with the bat.

 

Just rose tinted glasses for Kapil. even more so for freddie "useless" flintoff

Consider the opposition in Kapil's case. Windies were the greatest test team of all-time and he averaged 23 with bowl against them and was good with bat as well. South Africa were banned in 80s so obviously he won't play against them.

 

In Shakib's era, the top 4 teams are Aus, Ind, SA and Eng and his performance hasn't been impactful by any measures in any of those countries. He has picked 5-fers for 100+ runs in couple of those countries so individual wise he has done well and hence I rate him as BD great and at Stokes and Jadeja level. But there is more he needs to do in terms of sheer impact and he has lacked that.

 

Given the strength of opposition Shakib faced for 75% of his matches, looking at their international stats purely for them is like comparing Shakib's international stats with Jadeja and Stokes first class stats.

 

There is no rose tinted glass here for Kapil. He was the spearhead of Indian attack and a genuine impact A/R( slightly below Botham due to Botham's superior batting) but better than Stokes or Jadeja( who again went missing in the two WTC Final).

[Adamant]

2 hours ago, Vijy said:

not really. shakib > jaddu > stokes; all 3 are as good as kapil, some may even be better.

 

and flintoff did little of note in tests barring a couple of big series. mcmillan, for example, was much better. had a batting avg of nearly 40 and an excellent fielder + useful bowler. pollock > cairns as well

None of them are as good as Kapil. 

 

Kapil was a frontline spearhead bowler, if the others are given the same duty they would spectacularly fail. 

 

Batting wise, Shakib and Stokes are better but Jadeja is definitely a notch below. 

[Vijy]

4 hours ago, Adamant said:

None of them are as good as Kapil. 

 

Kapil was a frontline spearhead bowler, if the others are given the same duty they would spectacularly fail. 

 

Batting wise, Shakib and Stokes are better but Jadeja is definitely a notch below. 

as you wrote, stokes is better bat than kapil. of this trio, he is closest to kapil and I can agree he is lower.

 

but, shakib is the spearhead (lead bowler) for ban. just because he is a spinner doesn't negate that fact.

 

jadeja is one of the spearheads at home and support overseas. kapil was more of a support bowler in some conditions too.

[zen]

8 hours ago, Vijy said:

not really. shakib > jaddu > stokes; all 3 are as good as kapil, some may even be better.

 

 

Kapil will hardly be picked in an 11 as

 

a) there are better options for 3rd-4th seamer - Marshall, Ambrose,  & Hadlee/Imran/Procter/McGrath/Lillee/Steyn/Donald/…,… 

b) As the 5th bowler, a team would ideally prefer someone who can bat better

 

 

[Lord]

1 wicket and 44 runs across 2 innings

 

but was being hyped as some ATG performance

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, Lord said:

1 wicket and 44 runs across 2 innings

 

but was being hyped as some ATG performance

 

He relies on others to do the job. He is pushing them to the limit. So far they are taking the workload. Under root they were anyway losing left/right/center. With new approach they win a few more matches than otherwise. That is a plus. Having said that running his resources to ground, spoiling the career stats of elite player like Root in the name bazball is eventually going to hurt him and his resources.  Bubble will burst at some point. If he can't bear the even minimum load how can he expect others to bear the brunt of the load. It is physically demanding for them to keep on bowling.

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

He relies on others to do the job. He is pushing them to the limit. So far they are taking the workload. Under root they were anyway losing left/right/center. With new approach they win a few more matches than otherwise. That is a plus. Having said that running his resources to ground, spoiling the career stats of elite player like Root in the name bazball is eventually going to hurt him and his resources.  Bubble will burst at some point. If he can't bear the even minimum load how can he expect others to bear the brunt of the load. It is physically demanding for them to keep on bowling.

not contributing with bat too.

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, Lord said:

not contributing with bat too.

 

Yes. Even assuming he is doing that MSD thing of non perforing captain role, he has to be considerate with his players.

[cric_fan]

On 6/18/2023 at 3:13 AM, Majestic said:

Stokes, Shakib and Jadeja are at same level. 

 

A level below Kapil Dev.

 

Hierarchy is :

 

Sobers/Imran/Kallis

 

K Miller/Botham/Kapil

 

Cairns/ T Greig / Flintoff / Stokes /Jadeja/ Shakib

 

 

Flintoff was a one series wonder (2005). Highly overrated.

[Majestic]

4 hours ago, cric_fan said:

Flintoff was a one series wonder (2005). Highly overrated.

Yes and we have some posters saying batsman would rather face Kapil than Flintoff.

[Majestic]

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

He relies on others to do the job. He is pushing them to the limit. So far they are taking the workload. Under root they were anyway losing left/right/center. With new approach they win a few more matches than otherwise. That is a plus. Having said that running his resources to ground, spoiling the career stats of elite player like Root in the name bazball is eventually going to hurt him and his resources.  Bubble will burst at some point. If he can't bear the even minimum load how can he expect others to bear the brunt of the load. It is physically demanding for them to keep on bowling.

Root is basically England's 5th bowler currently. Stokes uses himself as 6th bowler.

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, Majestic said:

Root is basically England's 5th bowler currently. Stokes uses himself as 6th bowler.

 

They need variety. Two offies are not good. They might as well go with Livingstone and let him bowl leg spin

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

They need variety. Two offies are not good. They might as well go with Livingstone and let him bowl leg spin

That was mostly due to Aussies having lot of lefties. Their problem was that Moeen was not good enough as frontline spinner. There was decent assistance for spinners but Moeen gave hit me deliveries very often. 

 

Ashwin and Lyon would have done well in this test.