Ravindra Jadeja vs Kapil Dev in Tests

[Chaos]

Kapil solely on carrying the bowlling on his shoulders. Batting wise kapil was very destructive and didnt stat pud much and under utilized his batting talent. Fielding is was a great during his time. All this is coming from just watchin videos as i was born in late 80s :)

Edited February 20 by Chaos

[sensible-indian]

6 hours ago, Chaos said:

Kapil solely on carrying the bowlling on his shoulders. Batting wise kapil was very destructive and didnt stat pud much and under utilized his batting talent. Fielding is was a great during his time. All this is coming from just watchin videos as i was born in late 80s :)

Not saying Kapil statpadded...

 

But aggressive batting doesnt necessarily mean the runs are impactful.

 

A lot of times, careful and slow batting at a crucial juncture proves to be impactful in test cricket.

 

Only way to find out is to analyze the games deeply and go beyond cricinfo stats.

Edited February 20 by sensible-indian

[Vijy]

5 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Not saying Kapil statpadded...

 

But aggressive batting doesnt necessarily mean the runs are impactful.

 

A lot of times, careful and slow batting at a crucial juncture proves to be impactful in test cricket.

 

Only way to find out is to analyze the games deeply and go beyond cricinfo stats.

kapil could bat time too, though he didn't do it often.

[cricspirit]

Kapil dint do justice to batting potential. I watched him towards end of his career. Often when he walked in, I would keep hope that he will do something but he would go after playing some shots. 

 

He definitely had the potential to bat long but often just played lot of shots and got out. But he could strike the ball. Jadeja is not the same category of batsman. Kapil overall better all-round cricketer but not by much at this point. Jadeja takes over 4 wickets per match and affects crazy run outs. Kapil a brilliant fielder but still less than Jaddu. 

 

End of the day don't care who is higher. It's just fan discussion. Both did well.

[Muloghonto]

Out of all the allrounders of the 80s, Kapil easily had the most batting talent - time to play his strokes that is. He is the only one who would routinely annihilate the west indian fast bowlers - didnt matter if he scored 20 or 120, it would come at nearly run a ball clip and he never looked troubled till he got out - he wasnt a tuk tuk guy or play or miss guy. He was kind of the original Sehwag style batter - one of the cleanest strikers of the ball, with ample time to play his strokes. 
He just never took his batting seriously enough like Immy did. 

 

[Majestic]

29 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Out of all the allrounders of the 80s, Kapil easily had the most batting talent - time to play his strokes that is. He is the only one who would routinely annihilate the west indian fast bowlers - didnt matter if he scored 20 or 120, it would come at nearly run a ball clip and he never looked troubled till he got out - he wasnt a tuk tuk guy or play or miss guy. He was kind of the original Sehwag style batter - one of the cleanest strikers of the ball, with ample time to play his strokes. 
He just never took his batting seriously enough like Immy did. 

 

Test cricket is not just about having the time to play your shots. It is also about completeness as a batter. Ability to play long innings, not throw your wickets and be able to play all types of bowling across various conditions.

 

Kapil falls behind Botham in these points. Imran till 1987 was inferior batter to both. But post '87, he took his batting seriously and averaged 72 in his final 18 tests although that was the time when he started bowling lesser.

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

Test cricket is not just about having the time to play your shots. It is also about completeness as a batter. Ability to play long innings, not throw your wickets and be able to play all types of bowling across various conditions.

 

Kapil falls behind Botham in these points. Imran till 1987 was inferior batter to both. But post '87, he took his batting seriously and averaged 72 in his final 18 tests although that was the time when he started bowling lesser.

Kapil is far superior to botham as a batsman as kapil didnt suck againgst the best like botham did, who was much more of a soft team bully. 

 

[Vijy]

11 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Out of all the allrounders of the 80s, Kapil easily had the most batting talent - time to play his strokes that is. He is the only one who would routinely annihilate the west indian fast bowlers - didnt matter if he scored 20 or 120, it would come at nearly run a ball clip and he never looked troubled till he got out - he wasnt a tuk tuk guy or play or miss guy. He was kind of the original Sehwag style batter - one of the cleanest strikers of the ball, with ample time to play his strokes. 
He just never took his batting seriously enough like Immy did. 

 

he didn't take bowling too seriously as well, particularly in the latter parts of his career or against weaker teams. both he and srinath are, to my mind, unfulfilled talents despite strong int'l records. ditto for SRT.

 

One may then ask which players achieved their potential in Tests. there are certainly a number of them: Sunny (Gavaskar), Dravid, Kumble, even Sehwag & Kohli (excluding their dips in form).

Edited February 21 by Vijy

[putrevus]

12 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Kapil is far superior to botham as a batsman as kapil didnt suck againgst the best like botham did, who was much more of a soft team bully. 

 

While Kapil did well against WI.Botham for first 50 odd tests was a great allrounder.Botham scored 11 100s in his first 50 odd tests.

 

It is the later half of his career he became unfit and just carried on his past reputation.

 

Botham's problem was his lack of fitness .He became bigger than the team and once  Brearley left, there was no one who could control Beefy.Gatting did control for a tour in 1986 when England won Ashes in Australia.He was already fat and unfit slob by then.

 

Edited February 21 by putrevus

[Majestic]

9 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Kapil is far superior to botham as a batsman as kapil didnt suck againgst the best like botham did, who was much more of a soft team bully. 

 

Botham - 14 hundreds in 100 tests

Kapil - 8 hundreds in 130 tests

 

That gives us an idea about who was better performer of the two and a proper batsman rather than just a hitter. Otherwise if we go by your logic, VVS will be better than Kallis, Dravid and Sangakkara.

[Trichromatic]

7 minutes ago, putrevus said:

While Kapil did well against WI.Botham for first 50 odd tests was a great allrounder.Botham scored 11 100s in his first 50 odd tests.

 

It is the later half of his career he became unfit and just carried on his past reputation.

 

Botham's problem was his lack of fitness .He became bigger than the team once  Brearley left, there was no one who could control Beefy.Gatting did control for a tour in 1986 when England won Ashes in Australia.He was already fat and unfit slob by then.

 

 

This sums up Botham's batting.

 

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
SM Gavaskar (IND)	1977-1983	67	112	9	5618	236*	54.54	20	22	6
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1984	64	101	3	3686	208	37.61	13	14	10
AR Border (AUS)	1978-1984	56	97	17	3968	162	49.60	11	23	4
G Boycott (ENG)	1977-1982	45	83	9	3535	191	47.77	10	16	4
GS Chappell (AUS)	1977-1984	39	66	6	3138	235	52.30	10	11	6
KJ Hughes (AUS)	1977-1984	61	106	6	4119	213	41.19	9	22	6
Javed Miandad (PAK)	1977-1984	53	83	13	3864	280*	55.20	9	22	3
GR Viswanath (IND)	1977-1983	53	82	3	3399	222	43.02	9	19	5
DB Vengsarkar (IND)	1977-1983	63	102	9	3818	159	41.05	8	22	9
GN Yallop (AUS)	1978-1984	35	63	2	2574	268	42.19	8	8	3
Zaheer Abbas (PAK)	1978-1984	40	59	7	2969	235*	57.09	8	12	3
M Amarnath (IND)	1977-1983	29	48	4	1922	120	43.68	7	11	8
DI Gower (ENG)	1978-1984	54	94	8	3775	200*	43.89	7	19	6
CH Lloyd (WI)	1978-1983	33	46	4	2268	161*	54.00	7	13	0
IVA Richards (WI)	1978-1983	32	44	2	2279	182*	54.26	7	12	2
GM Wood (AUS)	1978-1983	42	81	5	2554	126	33.60	7	11	8
GP Howarth (NZ)	1978-1984	27	49	4	1759	147	39.08	6	6	5
Mohsin Khan (PAK)	1978-1984	30	48	5	1974	200	45.90	6	5	2
Mudassar Nazar (PAK)	1977-1984	42	64	5	2491	231	42.22	6	11	4
HA Gomes (WI)	1978-1983	31	47	5	1808	126	43.04	5	8	0
DW Randall (ENG)	1977-1984	34	57	5	1841	164	35.40	5	9	8

 

 

and bowling during same time

 

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1984	64	113	15109	7072	283	8/34	13/106	24.98	2.80	53.3	21	4
N Kapil Dev (IND)	1978-1983	62	101	13341	6844	247	9/83	11/146	27.70	3.07	54.0	18	2
RGD Willis (ENG)	1977-1984	58	106	11458	5179	219	8/43	9/92	23.64	2.71	52.3	11	0
DK Lillee (AUS)	1979-1984	38	70	9684	4476	184	7/83	11/138	24.32	2.77	52.6	11	3
Imran Khan (PAK)	1978-1984	36	60	8422	3273	170	8/58	14/116	19.25	2.33	49.5	12	3
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1978-1984	28	51	7810	3091	141	6/26	11/102	21.92	2.37	55.3	13	2
B Yardley (AUS)	1978-1983	33	58	8909	3986	126	7/98	10/185	31.63	2.68	70.7	6	1
MA Holding (WI)	1979-1983	29	54	6566	3011	124	6/62	11/107	24.28	2.75	52.9	7	1
DR Doshi (IND)	1979-1983	33	55	9322	3502	114	6/102	8/103	30.71	2.25	81.7	6	0
J Garner (WI)	1978-1983	27	51	6009	2173	106	6/56	8/121	20.50	2.16	56.6	2	0
JR Thomson (AUS)	1977-1983	30	52	5772	3078	106	6/77	7/80	29.03	3.19	54.4	3	0
RM Hogg (AUS)	1978-1984	30	53	6090	2660	103	6/74	10/66	25.82	2.62	59.1	5	2
Iqbal Qasim (PAK)	1977-1983	32	53	8339	2967	102	7/49	11/118	29.08	2.13	81.7	4	2

[putrevus]

15 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

This sums up Botham's batting.

 

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
SM Gavaskar (IND)	1977-1983	67	112	9	5618	236*	54.54	20	22	6
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1984	64	101	3	3686	208	37.61	13	14	10
AR Border (AUS)	1978-1984	56	97	17	3968	162	49.60	11	23	4
G Boycott (ENG)	1977-1982	45	83	9	3535	191	47.77	10	16	4
GS Chappell (AUS)	1977-1984	39	66	6	3138	235	52.30	10	11	6
KJ Hughes (AUS)	1977-1984	61	106	6	4119	213	41.19	9	22	6
Javed Miandad (PAK)	1977-1984	53	83	13	3864	280*	55.20	9	22	3
GR Viswanath (IND)	1977-1983	53	82	3	3399	222	43.02	9	19	5
DB Vengsarkar (IND)	1977-1983	63	102	9	3818	159	41.05	8	22	9
GN Yallop (AUS)	1978-1984	35	63	2	2574	268	42.19	8	8	3
Zaheer Abbas (PAK)	1978-1984	40	59	7	2969	235*	57.09	8	12	3
M Amarnath (IND)	1977-1983	29	48	4	1922	120	43.68	7	11	8
DI Gower (ENG)	1978-1984	54	94	8	3775	200*	43.89	7	19	6
CH Lloyd (WI)	1978-1983	33	46	4	2268	161*	54.00	7	13	0
IVA Richards (WI)	1978-1983	32	44	2	2279	182*	54.26	7	12	2
GM Wood (AUS)	1978-1983	42	81	5	2554	126	33.60	7	11	8
GP Howarth (NZ)	1978-1984	27	49	4	1759	147	39.08	6	6	5
Mohsin Khan (PAK)	1978-1984	30	48	5	1974	200	45.90	6	5	2
Mudassar Nazar (PAK)	1977-1984	42	64	5	2491	231	42.22	6	11	4
HA Gomes (WI)	1978-1983	31	47	5	1808	126	43.04	5	8	0
DW Randall (ENG)	1977-1984	34	57	5	1841	164	35.40	5	9	8

He was in way England's best bowler and best batsman from his debut till 1982-83. He did take 230 odd wickets in along at avg of 22 during this time.

 

Those are extraordinary stats..He was a party animal who got by his sheer talent but eventually these things catch up.

Edited February 21 by putrevus

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

Botham - 14 hundreds in 100 tests

Kapil - 8 hundreds in 130 tests

 

That gives us an idea about who was better performer of the two and a proper batsman rather than just a hitter. Otherwise if we go by your logic, VVS will be better than Kallis, Dravid and Sangakkara.

No. The whole 'better performance against best team makes you better player' is applicable for players in the same bracket as players. Botham despite his 14 hundreds has similar average to Kapil. Ergo, same class of player and Kapil's significantly superior performance against the best team of his time(possibly the best team ever) tips the scales in his favour.

 

[putrevus]

 Kapil was no way better batsman than Botham. What Kapil had was ability to score runs when top order failed, and he could score runs against any bowling attack on his day.

 

Botham pre 1983 was special , his one man act in Golden Jubilee test in Mumbai scoring 100 when his team was 5/58 and then taking 13 wickets was performance for ages.

 

That is why Kapil had some legendary knocks which any top order batsman would be be producd of, his last test century against Donald when every Indian batsmen including Sachin got out cheaply for last test hundred in SA in 1992.

 

He was easily the best athlete among the fab four.He should have been captain for longer, they made him captain too early and just when he was getting to understand himself and captaincy they removed him from captaincy.

 

 

 

[Majestic]

21 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

No. The whole 'better performance against best team makes you better player' is applicable for players in the same bracket as players. Botham despite his 14 hundreds has similar average to Kapil. Ergo, same class of player and Kapil's significantly superior performance against the best team of his time(possibly the best team ever) tips the scales in his favour.

 

The average difference is 2+ between both and if we look at runs per innings, Botham is 3+ higher than Kapil. If you go by average difference, Imran would be well ahead of both.

 

In real terms, Botham was comfortably better batsman than Kapil and Kapil was slightly better batsman than Imran.

 

Botham too played arguably one of the best knocks in Ashes to win a test from almost a match losing cause.

Edited February 22 by Majestic

[putrevus]

Imran Khan is most overrated allrounder among Kapil and Botham. Hadlee never considered himself as an allrounder.He was bowler who could bat.Imran falls into the same category.

 

He also had luxury of picking and chosing series he wanted to play and had least mileage of all the four all rounders.

 

Unlike other three who got to learn so much from county cricket, Kapil did it all by himself without much help.He was first name on the Indian teams for more than 12-13 years.So he never had time to play county cricket. If he had known about reverse swing, he sure would have ended with far better bowling stats.

[Muloghonto]

4 hours ago, Majestic said:

The average difference is 2+ between both and if we look at runs per innings, Botham is 3+ higher than Kapil. If you go by average difference, Imran would be well ahead of both.

 

In real terms, Botham was comfortably better batsman than Kapil and Kapil was slightly better batsman than Imran.

 

Botham too played arguably one of the best knocks in Ashes to win a test from almost a match losing cause.

No. 

In real terms Botham was a weak team bully and very mediocre against worldclass opposition. True, Botham declined in the mid 80s, but so did Kapil after his knee injury. Unlike Botham, Kapil has had good series vs the west indies. Botham never did. 

 

[Majestic]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

No. 

In real terms Botham was a weak team bully and very mediocre against worldclass opposition. True, Botham declined in the mid 80s, but so did Kapil after his knee injury. Unlike Botham, Kapil has had good series vs the west indies. Botham never did. 

 

Kapil was always a mediocre batsman who occasionally played a special knock. 8 hundreds in 134 tests vs 14 hundreds in 100 games.

 

There is no comparison. It is like comparing Flintoff batting vs Stokes batting.

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Kapil was always a mediocre batsman who occasionally played a special knock. 8 hundreds in 134 tests vs 14 hundreds in 100 games.

 

There is no comparison. It is like comparing Flintoff batting vs Stokes batting.

Doesnt matter if you score 8 100s in `134 tests and i score 14 in 100. If you score a few against the best team and i score zero, if our overall stats are comparable, you will be rated a better batsman than me. 
Thats true for every single sport, where for people with similar overall stats, performance against the best teams become the difference maker. beefy was the equivalent of a dude who cant buy a run vs McWarne but scores triples against Zimbabwe. 

 

[Majestic]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Doesnt matter if you score 8 100s in `134 tests and i score 14 in 100. If you score a few against the best team and i score zero, if our overall stats are comparable, you will be rated a better batsman than me. 
Thats true for every single sport, where for people with similar overall stats, performance against the best teams become the difference maker. beefy was the equivalent of a dude who cant buy a run vs McWarne but scores triples against Zimbabwe. 

 

It matters. Kapil didn't produced any test knock that changed the consequence of the series like Botham's Headingley did. Absolutely turned the game on its head.