Ravindra Jadeja vs Kapil Dev in Tests

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

It's the other way around.

 

Kapil is like Sehwag.

Imran is like Dravid.

 

You know who you would pick in Test cricket.

Sehwag is a far better batsman than Dravid in test format. 

 

[Majestic]

7 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

But kapil didnt score his runs against high school kids and then lay a turd like botham against real competition. So botham loses to Kapil as a batsman. 

As i said, you dont get to be better than me if you beat up on bangladesh and do far worse than me vs australia of these days.

 

Botham was a lesser batsman is why he couldnt score against better opposition and far more inconsistent than Kapil.

 

Incorrect.

 

Kapil couldn't even score runs against high school kids. That's the point here.

[Majestic]

8 hours ago, Vijy said:

I do consider Imran better than Kapil in Tests overseas, though not by as much a margin as the numbers say. as for evaluating imran in home conditions, I don't take them seriously for various reasons.

There is no reason to assume that Imran is not better than Kapil in Tests whether home or overseas. 

 

Imran is one of the best ever all rounders the game has seen and is also arguably one of the greatest captains to come from Asia. In an all time test XI, he will bat at 8 and Sobers at 6. Rest will follow these two.

[Majestic]

7 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Sehwag is a far better batsman than Dravid in test format. 

 

That's understandable. Please find below all your gems:-

 

Kapil and Imran> Botham as batsman

Jadeja > Stokes as batsman

Sehwag > Dravid in tests

Edited February 25 by Majestic

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Incorrect.

 

Kapil couldn't even score runs against high school kids. That's the point here.

Incorrect.

Kapil was less motivated to stats-pad against high school kids than Botham. Botham however, was simply not as good as kapil to score runs against the best bowling unit of his time. its just that simple. 

You dont get criticised for not having a high average against bangladesh. But you dont get to be a better batsman than me if you cant score runs against australia but stats pad against bangladesh

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

That's understandable. Please find below all your gems:-

 

Kapil and Imran> Botham as batsman

Jadeja > Stokes as batsman

Sehwag > Dravid in tests

All of the above are true. 

It should be Kapil & Imran >>>>> Botham as batsman. One greater than sign isnt sufficient to show how **** botham was against quality opposition.

 

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, Majestic said:

There is no reason to assume that Imran is not better than Kapil in Tests whether home or overseas. 

 

Imran is one of the best ever all rounders the game has seen and is also arguably one of the greatest captains to come from Asia. In an all time test XI, he will bat at 8 and Sobers at 6. Rest will follow these two.

Imran doesn't make it to an alltime XI. 

None of the allrounders of the 80s do, because its pretty much a locked-in position for Sobers and none of the 4 all allrounders from the 80s are good enough to merit one of the 4 bowling slots.

 

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

There is no reason to assume that Imran is not better than Kapil in Tests whether home or overseas. 

 

Imran is one of the best ever all rounders the game has seen and is also arguably one of the greatest captains to come from Asia. In an all time test XI, he will bat at 8 and Sobers at 6. Rest will follow these two.

No chance of Imran making it as a bowling AR. Hadlee has a better chance since the role of bowling AR is to bowl, and Hadlee is better than Imran.

 

All-time XIs do not need deep batting. selecting best 4 bowlers + batting AR is enough, as @Muloghonto has implied. And if someone thinks Imran is in the best 4 bowlers of all time, they are taking some seriously potent psychedelics

Edited February 25 by Vijy

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, Vijy said:

No chance of Imran making it as a bowling AR. Hadlee has a better chance since the role of bowling AR is to bowl, and Hadlee is better than Imran.

 

All-time XIs do not need deep batting. selecting best 4 bowlers + batting AR is enough, as @Muloghonto has implied. And if someone thinks Imran is in the best 4 bowlers of all time, they are taking some seriously potent psychedelics

personally, if there are 3 pacers + Sobers + spinner as the bowling attack, the three pacers I'd pick are: Marshall, Ambrose and Akram. You get everything- swing, pace,bounce, left arm angle, movement, etc. and if its a square turner, drop Ambrose and play both of Murali-Warne. Done.

 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

personally, if there are 3 pacers + Sobers + spinner as the bowling attack, the three pacers I'd pick are: Marshall, Ambrose and Akram. You get everything- swing, pace,bounce, left arm angle, movement, etc. and if its a square turner, drop Ambrose and play both of Murali-Warne. Done.

 

yes, 4 bowlers (of which Warne can bat) + Sobers is enough. Moreover, at least one of the other top 6 is bound to be capable of some bowling (e.g., SRT).

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

personally, if there are 3 pacers + Sobers + spinner as the bowling attack, the three pacers I'd pick are: Marshall, Ambrose and Akram. You get everything- swing, pace,bounce, left arm angle, movement, etc. and if its a square turner, drop Ambrose and play both of Murali-Warne. Done.

 

I would go only with post-WW2 cricketers for all positions except for 2: SF Barnes and Bradman. I feel like these 2 are special enough talents that they could have performed in any era, had they been born and adapted to play in that era.

[Majestic]

4 hours ago, Vijy said:

No chance of Imran making it as a bowling AR. Hadlee has a better chance since the role of bowling AR is to bowl, and Hadlee is better than Imran.

 

All-time XIs do not need deep batting. selecting best 4 bowlers + batting AR is enough, as @Muloghonto has implied. And if someone thinks Imran is in the best 4 bowlers of all time, they are taking some seriously potent psychedelics

They need deep batting because they will be playing against other all time XI only and hence the small margins will all matter because ultimately we are all making these imaginary teams.

 

There is no reason why Imran can't play at #8 in an all time XI. He is your third pacer who will use the old ball well and look for reverse swing and a very good batsman to have at that position to held one end. Remember, he plays his game on subcontinent pitches where it is hard yards for pacers. Lillee averaged like 100 on those pitches if I remember.

 

As for the last statement, if someone thinks Kapil is a better test all rounder than Imran, they surely are taking psychedelics.

Edited February 25 by Majestic

[Vijy]

3 hours ago, Majestic said:

They need deep batting because they will be playing against other all time XI only and hence the small margins will all matter because ultimately we are all making these imaginary teams.

 

There is no reason why Imran can't play at #8 in an all time XI. He is your third pacer who will use the old ball well and look for reverse swing and a very good batsman to have at that position to held one end. Remember, he plays his game on subcontinent pitches where it is hard yards for pacers. Lillee averaged like 100 on those pitches if I remember.

 

As for the last statement, if someone thinks Kapil is a better test all rounder than Imran, they surely are taking psychedelics.

by the same token, there is no reason to avoid playing hadlee there. one doesn't need a lot of runs from no. 8, especially if warne plays at no. 9. And Hadlee > Imran as a bowler, or do you also think that's untrue?

 

there are plenty of objective reasons why Hadlee is greater than Imran as a bowler, and it has nothing to do with bulk averages. It includes the fact that Hadlee didn't have as much benefit from home umpires (he had some), didn't rely on ball tampering, and played for a much weaker team and attack (only support was chatfield, and there were no spinners). Moreover, he could run through an opposition better than most, hence the ridiculous no. of 5fers that he accumulated.

 

the best fast medium bowler I saw in the 50+ yr of watching cricket. has a case to be selected even as a pure bowler in an all time XI, which Imran certainly does not.

Edited February 25 by Vijy

[Vijy]

irrespective of how the match turns out (4th test), jadeja's timid batting is a sharp contrast to kapil's red-blooded muscular batting

[Majestic]

On 2/25/2024 at 5:32 PM, Vijy said:

by the same token, there is no reason to avoid playing hadlee there. one doesn't need a lot of runs from no. 8, especially if warne plays at no. 9. And Hadlee > Imran as a bowler, or do you also think that's untrue?

 

there are plenty of objective reasons why Hadlee is greater than Imran as a bowler, and it has nothing to do with bulk averages. It includes the fact that Hadlee didn't have as much benefit from home umpires (he had some), didn't rely on ball tampering, and played for a much weaker team and attack (only support was chatfield, and there were no spinners). Moreover, he could run through an opposition better than most, hence the ridiculous no. of 5fers that he accumulated.

 

the best fast medium bowler I saw in the 50+ yr of watching cricket. has a case to be selected even as a pure bowler in an all time XI, which Imran certainly does not.

It's close between the two I would say.

 

Hadlee as great as he was, he did had the benefit of playing half of his games in New Zealand conditions which would benefit medium pacers more than any other venue.

 

In subcontinent conditions, there is always dearth of ATG pace bowlers, India had none who could average under 25 till Bumrah came, Sri Lanka or Bangladesh have none either. Considering that, Imran was the first of pacers from Asia to average 21 around the 300 wickets mark. That tells us it's a much harder job in subcontinent than outside.

 

It is same as how spinners like Lyon are rated as world class inspite of averaging 32 in Australia, Warne rated as GOAT inspite of 25 average. That basically signifies the hardship of conditions for spinners in those countries. Ofcourse, it's not just averages only, there are other factors. But average is one of the factors.

 

Coming to all time test XI, I would have Marshall, McGrath and Warne as #9-11. #8 can be any of Imran or Hadlee.

 

I would consider Ambrose, Steyn and Wasim as other strong contenders too among the pacers from last 40-50 years.

 

Imran does have a slight advantage due to added batting and captaincy. All in all, I would have him as #2 among the all rounders behind Sobers only and ahead of Kallis(#3). They will be followed by the likes of Miller, Botham, Kapil, Faulkner etc. 

[Muloghonto]

On 2/25/2024 at 1:52 AM, Majestic said:

They need deep batting because they will be playing against other all time XI only and hence the small margins will all matter because ultimately we are all making these imaginary teams.

 

There is no reason why Imran can't play at #8 in an all time XI. He is your third pacer who will use the old ball well and look for reverse swing and a very good batsman to have at that position to held one end. Remember, he plays his game on subcontinent pitches where it is hard yards for pacers. Lillee averaged like 100 on those pitches if I remember.

 

As for the last statement, if someone thinks Kapil is a better test all rounder than Imran, they surely are taking psychedelics.

He isnt good enough to be the third pacer in an alltime lineup. Marshall, Holding, McGrath, Garner, Ambrose, Donald, Steyn, Akram are ahead of him. 
Kapil was a better all-rounder than Imran 'in the present'. So was Botham. These two played most of their careers as players who can play as either bowler only or batter only for their teams, Imran wasn't good enough to get into the team as a batter only for the first half of his career and for the second half, wasnt good enough to be in the team as a bowler only.

Over the span of their entire careers, Imran scaled greater heights than kapil as a batsman and a bowler. This is the difference between looking at career stats and playing performances in real time.

 

Also, under no circumstances does Warne get into an alltime XI ahead of Murali. He is miles better in every single aspect - carrying the bowling alone, in spinning or non spinning pitches, control, consistency and variety.

 

McGrath is a legit selection, but i would still take Ambrose,Garner, Steyn & Akram ahead of him. 

 

Edited February 27 by Muloghonto

[vvvslaxman]

On 2/25/2024 at 11:50 PM, Vijy said:

irrespective of how the match turns out (4th test), jadeja's timid batting is a sharp contrast to kapil's red-blooded muscular batting

 

Jadeja is a percentage cricketer.  Kapil was nothing but percentage cricketer. On true wickets oflat he has improved his defense and temperament has enhanced his reputation as a batsman. But in terms of counter punching he is nowhere close to Kapil. He ain't lifting a team from 17 for 5 to 266/8. One of those guys who considered his runs as bonus. One of the most skillful batsmen against all types of attack Both are match winners in their respective  era. One difference Jadeja had a partner in crime for a decade. Kapil had none. He had to rely on Mohinders,  chetan sharmas , Madanlals, Binnys

[Nikhil_cric]

Cricviz consider Jadeja the most impactful cricketer of this millenium. I agree with it.  Kapil wasn't the best allrounder even in his generation.

 

Gotta give the man his props in Test and I can't stand the sight of the guy in white ball cricket 

[mishra]

On 2/25/2024 at 2:50 AM, Majestic said:

Incorrect.

 

Kapil couldn't even score runs against high school kids. That's the point here.

 

On 2/25/2024 at 2:56 AM, Muloghonto said:

Incorrect.

Kapil was less motivated to stats-pad against high school kids than Botham. Botham however, was simply not as good as kapil to score runs against the best bowling unit of his time. its just that simple. 

You dont get criticised for not having a high average against bangladesh. But you dont get to be a better batsman than me if you cant score runs against australia but stats pad against bangladesh

Why was Kapil less motivated or why did he decided to not play against High School kids.

[mishra]

Purely on basis of YoYo test (dont get me wrong its key criteria for selection), I am sure Jaddu will beat Kapil hands down