Who is the greatest general ever?

[Lone Wolf]

When u go through Western history they point out Caesar & Napoleon. 

As far as geenrals go neither Generals would make the top 10 worlds best generals if you look at it pragmatically and do extensive research but of the two I would favor Ceasar since he lost way less wars then Napoleon just because he was brave and a gambler probably also a miscalculator doesn't make him the better general. He was obviously more war happy compared to Ceasar who was the more calculated guy of the two.

 

Let me give you a top 10 based on extensive research

 

1. Khalid Banu Walid: Defeated both the Romans and Persian empire at the same time with a ragtag arab army and probably one of the people responible for the vast expansion of Islam.

 

2. Subatai: Probably the greatest ever.  Genghis respeceted him a lot. Great general and responsible for the great mongol expansion and the brain behind the operations.

 

3. Baybars: incredible skilled general who never lost a battle during his time and is the man who completely defeated and stopped the crusaders once and for all to such an extent they lost appetite. He also fought in one of the biggest battles in history at the battle of Ain Jalut II. The first time the Mongols were defeated and stop advancing and he played key role in pushing their advances back in several other campaign post Ain-Jalut and he was victorious against them and you can say he was the guy who basically stopped the mongols.

 

4. Tariq ibn Ziyad: Took all of spain, Portugal and southern part of France in only 7 years didn't lose one single battle. He first crossed over from Morocco with only 7000 forces and took almost half of Spain without reforcement and when reforcement came he advanced forward taking Portugal and south france.

 

5. Mehmet II: They call him father of conquests: Took Constantinople and alot of other countries such as Romania, Serbia, Albania, Slovenia, Macedonia, Hungary, Austria, Croatia, Moldova, Bulgaria, Georgia, etc etc and many more.

 

6. El Cid: Was a Spainard reconquista general who caused the Al-Andalus muslims a nightmare by going undefeated against them in numerous battles and probably their worst nightmare. He took back from them vast territories defeating them in multiple battles. He was stoppable and one of the greatest military minds in his era.

 

7. Alexander The great: He ran thru alot of armies Europe to Asia minor until he was stop in modern day Pakistan or Kashmir. He was eventually defeated which puts him 7 on this list but his campaigns were legendary and he conquered good amount of land.

 

8: Sun Tzu: Without this man in the top 10 it is never a top 10. He overcame a large forces while he was writing the famous book called the art of war and he defines top General I would have placed him 1st but unfortunately he didn't have major campaigns outside of China.

 

9: Malik Kafur: This one will surprise you but his a brillant and underrated general in the Islamic world. He was a Marathi who converted to Islam he ran thru India all the way to Tamil Nadu crushing many larger armies in just 3 years Yadavas (1308), the Kakatiyas (1310), the Hoysalas (1311), and the Pandyas (1311) he basically ran over them at one go that is 4 kingdoms and defeated the mongols (1306) to such an extent they lost appetite for another adventure. He was gifted and probably had ridiculously high IQ. They called him 1000 gold coins and valued for his intelligence. He even ruled Delhi Sultanate for a short period. Nor Delhi sultanate, Mughal Empire, or the deccan sultanate ever saw a greater general everyone who came before him or after him were lesser then him.

 

10: Genghis Khan: I know that he later on let Subatai and others go on campaign but the way he beat his rival adopted brother who had a larger army showchased his abilities he was a great general and the way he sacked the northern Chinese kingdoms

 

 

Honorable mentions who didn't make top TimurLane, Ceasar, King David of Israel, Sulaiman the Great, Scipio Africanus, Pompey, Richard the Lionheart, Saladin, and Kublai Khan. 

[bharathh]

Why does a great general only have to win offensive wars? Btw Sun Tzu's existence itself is debated in China. 

 

Btw Gaius Julius Caesar was a great general as was Saladin.

 

Chandragupta Maurya, Ashoka, Raja Raja Chola, Rajendra Chola, Shivaji, Peshwa Bajirao are some great generals who are ignored

 

[Lone Wolf]

25 minutes ago, bharathh said:

Why does a great general only have to win offensive wars? Btw Sun Tzu's existence itself is debated in China. 

 

Btw Gaius Julius Caesar was a great general as was Saladin.

 

Chandragupta Maurya, Ashoka, Raja Raja Chola, Rajendra Chola, Shivaji, Peshwa Bajirao are some great generals who are ignored

 

These are great generals in India.  Ashoka basically inherited everything.  Chandragupta Maurya can claim to be in Top 20 as he basically set up Mauryan empire & defeated Greek General. 

Rest others didn't face any external aggression.  Chola can be another one in Top 20.  Those listed in Top 10 are literally top tier who did it all against the odds. 

 

Sun Tzu existence has been questioned but this manuscript

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinqueshan_Han_Slips

Gives us the idea that he did.   In one conversation king Helu asked Sun Tzu to provide an analysis on the kingdom Jin, which was one of two superpowers among China’s warring states.

This script kinda cleared numerous doubts surrounding this. 

 

In the list I even left out Timur as he lost several battles with Central Asian Tribes.  Before India campaign turned the tide for him. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Lone Wolf

[bharathh]

How did Malik Kafur, Subatai, Tariq Bin Ziyad, Mehmet II, Malik Kafur fight against all odds? They represented the dominant power by a large margin fighting against small kingdoms. 

 

Sun Tzu has only been mentioned in one major battle which he apparently didn't even fight in. How does this make him a top 10 general? 

 

Mehmet II took areas equivalent to half the areas of the Cholas. Why does it make him great and top 10? 

[bharathh]

I would even add Robert Clive (although I despise what he did to our ancestors) as a great general. Hannibal, Gaius Marius, Pompey the Great, Darius I are all great generals.

 

Btw the OP says who is the greatest. How do you measure greatness? Is it fame, area conquered, number of people killed, number of battles won?

[Lone Wolf]

2 minutes ago, bharathh said:

How did Malik Kafur, Subatai, Tariq Bin Ziyad, Mehmet II, Malik Kafur fight against all odds? They represented the dominant power by a large margin fighting against small kingdoms. 

 

Sun Tzu has only been mentioned in one major battle which he apparently didn't even fight in. How does this make him a top 10 general? 

 

Mehmet II took areas equivalent to half the areas of the Cholas. Why does it make him great and top 10? 

Kafur did it all in a very short span...  Unheard of in a country like India.  Then suppressing the forces of Mongols with smaller numbers.  This is great stuff.  Aurangzeb had an overwhelmingly great force & look how he struggled.  His numerous generals struggled. 

 

Again area is not of significance.  Europe was a frontier for Asian forces always has been.  Mehmet II taking over a well fortified & advanced city like Constantinople was a massive moment.  Not to mention advancing further in Macdeonia & Romania. 

[Lone Wolf]

3 minutes ago, bharathh said:

I would even add Robert Clive (although I despise what he did to our ancestors) as a great general. Hannibal, Gaius Marius, Pompey the Great, Darius I are all great generals.

 

Btw the OP says who is the greatest. How do you measure greatness? Is it fame, area conquered, number of people killed, number of battles won?

Agree on Hannibal....  He is called Menace for Roman Army.  Slipped out of my mind. 

[Lone Wolf]

Hannibal was a genius tactically & was Little crazy as well.  Nothing tops to take elephants across the Alps (where many died) just to surprise Rome.  It was a crazy idea. Not saying it was a bad idea. He almost defeated the Romans.

[Lone Wolf]

Also Everybody knows Genghis Khan, his right hand Subutai today is much less known.

He is the one that conquered from China to Persia to Rus to Poland and everything in between. Conquered several dozen nations, fought maybe hundreds of battles, rarely lost one. Used strategies like bio-warfare, siege warfare, psychological warfare and so on.

In terms of land conquered and maybe even battles won, this general probably tops them all.

[bharathh]

It took destroying all of Italy by the Romans to beat Hannibal. 

 

What is your thought on Shivaji, Bajirao Peshwa, Lalitaditya etc.? In fact Lalitaditya fought the Tibetans, Arabs, and local rulers and conquered a huge part of India and beyond as well. 

 

What about Spartacus? 

Edited March 21, 2022 by bharathh

[Lone Wolf]

Just now, bharathh said:

It took destroying all of Italy by the Romans to beat Hannibal. 

 

What is your thought on Shivaji, Bajirao Peshwa, Lalitaditya etc.? In fact Lalitaditya fought the Tibetans, Arabs, and local rulers and conquered a huge part of India and beyond as well. 

I consider Lalitaditya in very high regard.  If Kalhana's record are even 10% accurate.  He is probably one of our greatest conquerors. 

His rivalry with Yashovarman of Kannauj & how both of them came together to beat Arabs is well known.  Although he still managed to defeat Yashovarman later & install a puppet king. 

It is believed the King never lost a battle & was a devout Shiv Bhakt.  Legends say he probably died at Xinjiang in a campaign when he himself killed him as he lost a battle.  Arabs account say even kings of Makran used to pay tribute to him. 

 

Shivaji was great tactically & used his smaller resources well initially.  Mark of a good general. 

[coffee_rules]

Patton 

[Lone Wolf]

20 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

From whatever little i know ,likes of Khalid and Subutai relied on speed and energy more than strategy .In the battle of chains against the Persians, Khalid got his troops ,mostly light infantry, moving quickly around the heavily armoured Persians who then in trying to pursue the Arabs got exhausted when the battle started ,Baji Rao also used similar tactics against the Nizam at Palkhed .

European generals like Julius Ceaser,Napoleon relied more on equipment and training and their troops mostly elite infantry were slower in movement.
 

This battle is the testimony for the Brilliance of Napoleon !!

Though in case of Ceaser it must be noted that during his era Rome was sole superpower in the region. Caesar's adversaries are not that advanced, they are barbarians like Gauls, Germanic tribes etc..etc.

[goose]

general knowledge

[bharathh]

1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

From whatever little i know ,likes of Khalid and Subutai relied on speed and energy more than strategy .In the battle of chains against the Persians, Khalid got his troops ,mostly light infantry, moving quickly around the heavily armoured Persians who then in trying to pursue the Arabs got exhausted when the battle started ,Baji Rao also used similar tactics against the Nizam at Palkhed .

European generals like Julius Ceaser,Napoleon relied more on equipment and training and their troops mostly elite infantry were slower in movement.
 

Caesar's battles of Gaul are considered to be some of the finest examples of good generaling of troops. A lot of his tactics such as circumvellation were used for centuries after him. He of course attributes a lot of his skill to that of his uncles Gaius Marius and Lucius Cornelius Sulla who were some of the Roman Republic's most famous generals ever. Gauis Marius was considered as the 3rd father of the Roman Republic for beating the "Germans" who numbered almost 10x the Roman army. Of course he had also conquered Namibia and quelled the Latin colonies in the Italian war - when every single Latin nation around Rome declared war on it. Marius was the one that professionalized the Roman legion - taking it from a volunteer force into the juggernaut that crushed everyone for centuries after. 

 

Caesar was such an amazing general that at the battle of Carrhae he defeated Pompey's army (another one of the Republic's great generals) in a single engagement in the 3rd and penultinamte of the Civil wars that broke the Roman Republic's back.. Caesar had such an impact on history that every single European king considered themselves a Caesar (Kaiser in Germany, Tsar in Russia, etc. ) 

[bharathh]

1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

Will watch it later.

 

Romans did defeat the Greeks didnt they.There is that story of how the Antikythera machine got lost amongst all the carnage.Maybe that was before Caesar.Then there were the Persians ,wonder what was the record between them.

The Greek states were a weak collective of small states when the Romans rose to power. Fighting with Darius and internecine fights among the states themselves made them an easy target for the Romans later. They were a shadow of themselves when the Romans beat them. 

 

Actually the Romans themselves played second fiddle to Carthage (modern Tunisia/Morocco) until they beat them and burned Carthage to the ground and decimated them (Islamic stylez).

 

When the Romans were at their peak - there were the Parthians to the East (modern Iran) and Carthage to the west. Rome could never conquer the Parthians - but they did manage to dominate the west. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by bharathh

[Clarke]

I've only read a bit about modern era generals & field marshals, Rommel, Von Manstien, Bradley, Patton, Manekshaw, Zhukov etc. No idea who was supremely the best but Zhukov & Manekshaw have some astounding victory or two in their achievement list.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Clarke

[Vijy]

On 3/21/2022 at 12:05 AM, Lone Wolf said:

When u go through Western history they point out Caesar & Napoleon. 

As far as geenrals go neither Generals would make the top 10 worlds best generals if you look at it pragmatically and do extensive research but of the two I would favor Ceasar since he lost way less wars then Napoleon just because he was brave and a gambler probably also a miscalculator doesn't make him the better general. He was obviously more war happy compared to Ceasar who was the more calculated guy of the two.

 

Let me give you a top 10 based on extensive research

 

1. Khalid Banu Walid: Defeated both the Romans and Persian empire at the same time with a ragtag arab army and probably one of the people responible for the vast expansion of Islam.

 

2. Subatai: Probably the greatest ever.  Genghis respeceted him a lot. Great general and responsible for the great mongol expansion and the brain behind the operations.

 

3. Baybars: incredible skilled general who never lost a battle during his time and is the man who completely defeated and stopped the crusaders once and for all to such an extent they lost appetite. He also fought in one of the biggest battles in history at the battle of Ain Jalut II. The first time the Mongols were defeated and stop advancing and he played key role in pushing their advances back in several other campaign post Ain-Jalut and he was victorious against them and you can say he was the guy who basically stopped the mongols.

 

4. Tariq ibn Ziyad: Took all of spain, Portugal and southern part of France in only 7 years didn't lose one single battle. He first crossed over from Morocco with only 7000 forces and took almost half of Spain without reforcement and when reforcement came he advanced forward taking Portugal and south france.

 

5. Mehmet II: They call him father of conquests: Took Constantinople and alot of other countries such as Romania, Serbia, Albania, Slovenia, Macedonia, Hungary, Austria, Croatia, Moldova, Bulgaria, Georgia, etc etc and many more.

 

6. El Cid: Was a Spainard reconquista general who caused the Al-Andalus muslims a nightmare by going undefeated against them in numerous battles and probably their worst nightmare. He took back from them vast territories defeating them in multiple battles. He was stoppable and one of the greatest military minds in his era.

 

7. Alexander The great: He ran thru alot of armies Europe to Asia minor until he was stop in modern day Pakistan or Kashmir. He was eventually defeated which puts him 7 on this list but his campaigns were legendary and he conquered good amount of land.

 

8: Sun Tzu: Without this man in the top 10 it is never a top 10. He overcame a large forces while he was writing the famous book called the art of war and he defines top General I would have placed him 1st but unfortunately he didn't have major campaigns outside of China.

 

9: Malik Kafur: This one will surprise you but his a brillant and underrated general in the Islamic world. He was a Marathi who converted to Islam he ran thru India all the way to Tamil Nadu crushing many larger armies in just 3 years Yadavas (1308), the Kakatiyas (1310), the Hoysalas (1311), and the Pandyas (1311) he basically ran over them at one go that is 4 kingdoms and defeated the mongols (1306) to such an extent they lost appetite for another adventure. He was gifted and probably had ridiculously high IQ. They called him 1000 gold coins and valued for his intelligence. He even ruled Delhi Sultanate for a short period. Nor Delhi sultanate, Mughal Empire, or the deccan sultanate ever saw a greater general everyone who came before him or after him were lesser then him.

 

10: Genghis Khan: I know that he later on let Subatai and others go on campaign but the way he beat his rival adopted brother who had a larger army showchased his abilities he was a great general and the way he sacked the northern Chinese kingdoms

 

 

Honorable mentions who didn't make top TimurLane, Ceasar, King David of Israel, Sulaiman the Great, Scipio Africanus, Pompey, Richard the Lionheart, Saladin, and Kublai Khan. 

LoneWolf, this is an excellent list. I would, however, suggest adding Wellington to the mix. Guy was a friggin beast. He was both amazing when he had superior firepower but also when he had less forces (e.g., his campaigns in the Iberian peninsula) - never lost a battle, just like the great Baybars. Likewise, some of WW2 and WW1 commanders should be here IMO. I do not rate Richard and Sala-ud-din that highly, since neither of them were "perfect" and both made clear strategic and tactical blunders in that crusade. Scipio A was a beast as well, but Alcibiades was even better.

 

One should speak about naval commanders separately. The no. 1 is obvious to my mind. No. 1 goes to yi-sun sin. this guy hammered japs time and again despite horrible court politics from his own country that conspired against him time and again. ExtraCredits History has a fun series on him on Youtube

Edited April 25, 2022 by Vijy

[Lone Wolf]

3 hours ago, Vijy said:

LoneWolf, this is an excellent list. I would, however, suggest adding Wellington to the mix. Guy was a friggin beast. He was both amazing when he had superior firepower but also when he had less forces (e.g., his campaigns in the Iberian peninsula) - never lost a battle, just like the great Baybars. Likewise, some of WW2 and WW1 commanders should be here IMO. I do not rate Richard and Sala-ud-din that highly, since neither of them were "perfect" and both made clear strategic and tactical blunders in that crusade. Scipio A was a beast as well, but Alcibiades was even better.

 

One should speak about naval commanders separately. The no. 1 is obvious to my mind. No. 1 goes to yi-sun sin. this guy hammered japs time and again despite horrible court politics from his own country that conspired against him time and again. ExtraCredits History has a fun series on him on Youtube

I know little about Yi sun sin..  Looks like some dude.  There's a Korean series on him which I think I must find somehow.  The Top 10 I made was quite exclusive & based on odds & time frame.   Some big names I later realized missed out as well. 

In WW1 I'd go with Erich Ludendorff..  His victory over Russians as Tannenberg according to Historians also actually acted a  catalyst in Russian revolution & withdrawal from war in 1917.

 

In WW2 Tie between Patton + Erich Von Manstein

The famous Manstein plan that led to German victory in France in 1940 is well known.  Played a key role in German success in operation barbossa. 

Erich von Manstein advised Hitler against over extending the German forces in the Battle of Stalingrad. Hitler ignored it and paid with the encirclement and surrender of the German sixth army along with Gen Fredreich Paulus.

 

Next up is Patton..   Nazi generals said that he was the best allied commander, and Hitler said Patton was the only allied general he was truly afraid of.

He had the amazing gift of understanding terrain and utilizing it to achieve maximum results. He took more prisoners in a shorter time than any other general.

He took Sicily in 38 days. He Blitzed the Krauts from Brittany to Lorraine and defeated their attack at Mortain.His crowning achievement was his 90 degree turn and resulting flanking attack on German forces during the relief of Bastogne.  He was tactically on par with Napoleon I'd say. 

[HamHindustani]

Admiral General Aladin from Wadiya.....