Good old familiar LOI scorecard!

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, Lord said:

I agree with OP. Top 3 go missing too many times and from there its always tough. Giving examples of Aus of 2000s dont fit. We arent that good.

How are they missing too many games? 

[raki05]

If chapri Pandya has not exposed enough in 7 years he will keep getting exposed gng forward as well. He is the most experience guy after top 3 along with Jadeja. People who watch cricket live and doesn't read stats to judge players already know what Pandya and Jadega(loi) brings to the table. They are the 2 most superuseless players played loi on the name of AR for so long. If Pandya is so called ar why don't he bowl even 5 overs in every match. Very soon these oldies would go out than this so called fake AR can't hide in the guise of top order failure. Maxwell and many other team has lower order batter who bowl enough overs and win matches time and again for their teams.

[raki05]

7 minutes ago, putrevus said:

How are they missing too many games? 

Still the game we win even at their lowest when they perform or no hopes. 

[Lord]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

How are they missing too many games? 

 

CT 2017 final, WC 2019 semi,WC 2021 two games, recent series v WI

 

Thats just from top of my head where they failed. I'm sure there are more.

 

Its the easiest batting position where everyone lines up to bat still they keep playing without success

[putrevus]

9 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

CT 2017 final, WC 2019 semi,WC 2021 two games, recent series v WI

 

Thats just from top of my head where they failed. I'm sure there are more.

 

Its the easiest batting position where everyone lines up to bat still they keep playing without success

Yes everyone knows  they flopped in big matches but they took the team to those big matches.Let these bozos do something in regular matches first. How long do we have to wait for these bozos to perform even in regular matches.

Edited July 15, 2022 by putrevus

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

 

CT 2017 final, WC 2019 semi,WC 2021 two games, recent series v WI

 

Thats just from top of my head where they failed. I'm sure there are more.

 

Its the easiest batting position where everyone lines up to bat still they keep playing without success

If it is easiest position and these bozos like Pandya and Jadeja  want to play as openers let them do in IPL and other matches first and show the selectors they are capable of playing as openers.

 

One more thing we are not asking these guys to win any world cups.  We are not even asking them to win bilateral matches consistently. Performing once in while after 8 odd years is not too  much to ask.

Edited July 15, 2022 by putrevus

[coffee_rules]

21 minutes ago, zen said:

 

ARs batting at #6-8 are in to provide balance to the side, while those batting in the top order (#1-3) are usually specialist batsmen. AR's contribute in multi areas, while specialist have to focus on one discipline. If specialist bat like ARs and that too in the top order, the preferred batting slot for most batsmen in LOIs, it may be time to bring in those who can bat like specialist batsmen: 

 

Below are the stats in ODIs at #6-7:

Primary team India  Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies  Batting position between 6 and 7  Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 250  and matches played greater than or equal to 20  Ordered by batting average (descending)   Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0   M Azharuddin 1985-1999 25 20 10 597 108* 59.70 639 93.42 1 1 0   MS Dhoni 2005-2019 179 149 49 4637 139* 46.37 5527 83.89 2 33 4   KM Jadhav 2014-2020 46 34 14 859 120 42.95 777 110.55 1 2 1   HH Pandya 2016-2022 44 28 4 867 92* 36.12 779 111.29 0 6 3   A Jadeja 1992-2000 55 48 10 1303 119 34.28 1732 75.23 1 6 2   YK Pathan 2008-2012 40 28 9 627 123* 33.00 532 117.85 2 3 3   SK Raina 2005-2018 78 68 14 1740 106 32.22 1903 91.43 1 8 7   Yuvraj Singh 2000-2011 61 51 8 1363 98* 31.69 1725 79.01 0 10 2   RA Jadeja 2009-2022 114 83 29 1645 87 30.46 1935 85.01 0 8 6   RJ Shastri 1982-1992 66 55 11 1279 73* 29.06 1662 76.95 0 7 2   RG Sharma 2007-2012 20 18 7 266 58 24.18 347 76.65 0 1 1   RR Singh 1989-2001 86 76 16 1436 75 23.93 1987 72.26 0 6 3   N Kapil Dev 1978-1994 162 142 29 2700 87 23.89 2977 90.69 0 10 11   M Kaif 2002-2006 60 49 10 914 87* 23.43 1219 74.97 0 5 3   IK Pathan 2004-2012 30 24 6 384 47* 21.33 554 69.31 0 0 2   NR Mongia 1994-2000 68 49 17 664 69 20.75 941 70.56 0 1 0   PK Amre 1991-1994 29 23 3 384 55 19.20 609 63.05 0 1 1   AK Sharma 1988-1993 20 18 3 279 52* 18.60 309 90.29 0 2 2

 

SDP, since you are focused on him, is among the best, while bringing in pace bowling, which India struggles to produce, and excellent fielding to the mix. He has a better 50+/innings ratio than Raina and Yuvi in the lower middle order (#6-7). Yuvi hit a 50+ score in 1 out of 6 innings and Raina in 1 out of 8 innings, while SDP in only 28 innings so far goes at 1 in 5 innings and expected to get better! For reference, Dhoni hit 1 50+ score in 4 innings, Jadhav roughly 1 in 11, and Azhar 1 in 13. 

 

Only a handful of players have averaged 40+ in the lower middle order and that too helped by a relatively large # of not outs. Even those who bat in top order (#1-3) have not done well in the lower middle order (#6-7), for e.g. Tuk Tuk only averages 24.

 

 

 

Since cricket has evolved, those you listed  are not going to be batting at #6-7 unless they can bowl. Jadhav had a good run as he may have played during his purple patch but he is not an option now. Even IPL teams don't play him. 

 

 

I understand that KL-Rohit-etc may be your favorite players but they are specialist batsmen assigned to do a role. Can't hide by blaming #6-7.  If they want to bat like #6-8 (and ARs), while batting in the top of the order, better to bring in other batsmen ... Among the key reasons that the thread focuses on those slotted in the premier batting positions (#1-3). 

 

In keeping the OP in mind, my argument was in the matches where India has chased and won. Pandya has one 50 in 6 years. Everyone fares well when setting a score playing first. India cannot chase well when top 3 fails. Period. Or even set a score batting first when top 3 fail. MO value can be assessed only when chips are down. 

[coffee_rules]

19 minutes ago, raki05 said:

If chapri Pandya has not exposed enough in 7 years he will keep getting exposed gng forward as well. He is the most experience guy after top 3 along with Jadeja. People who watch cricket live and doesn't read stats to judge players already know what Pandya and Jadega(loi) brings to the table. They are the 2 most superuseless players played loi on the name of AR for so long. If Pandya is so called ar why don't he bowl even 5 overs in every match. Very soon these oldies would go out than this so called fake AR can't hide in the guise of top order failure. Maxwell and many other team has lower order batter who bowl enough overs and win matches time and again for their teams.

With IPL win, he is considered captaincy material. Even now, after IPL win, we can see him yelling expletives at all players and also at fielders who are not paying attention. He yelled at a player who was at the boundary line drinking water when he was setting the field before the start of the over.  Perfect role for him to be in the 11 as a non-performer (eg set by Tony)

[zen]

20 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

In keeping the OP in mind, my argument was in the matches where India has chased and won. Pandya has one 50 in 6 years. Everyone fares well when setting a score playing first. India cannot chase well when top 3 fails. Period. Or even set a score batting first when top 3 fail. MO value can be assessed only when chips are down. 

 

While it may have the scorecard of the recent match, OP does not focus on chasing only. It covers scenarios like the recent matches in the T20 WC against Pak & NZ where Ind batted first.

 

The MO has some cool performances. For e.g. SDP only recently delivered the best performance for Ind in T20s by scoring a 50 and picking up 4 wkts. The series against SA, where DK, SDP, etc. played crucial knocks. And versus Ireland too ... SKY recently scored a 100 too in the 3rd T20s (Ind rested SDP in that game). 

 

In the last ODI discussed in the OP, where no player from both sides scored a 50, Ind's #5-8 scored 100 runs with most getting out in trying to go for a win (keep up with RR) and not play for an individual 50 or a not out. 

 

Sorry buddy, the specialist batsmen in top order cannot hide. They have already failed in 2 out of last 3 games, which is rinse and repeat of their performances in many key games: 

 

 

BATTING		R	B	4s	6s	SR
Rohit Sharma (c)	lbw b Topley	0	10	0	0	0.00
Shikhar Dhawan	c †Buttler b Topley	9	26	1	0	34.61
Virat Kohli	c †Buttler b Willey	16	25	3	0	64.00
Rishabh Pant †	c sub (PD Salt) b Carse	0	5	0	0	0.00

 

 

 

INDIA INNINGS (Target: 216 runs from 20 overs)

BATTING		R	B	M	4s	6s	SR
Rohit Sharma (c)	c Salt b Topley	11	12	26	2	0	91.66
Rishabh Pant †	c †Buttler b Topley	1	5	7	0	0	20.00
Virat Kohli	c Roy b Willey	11	6	8	1	1	183.33

 

 

PS Add to that the  poor performances against a left-arm pacer. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by zen

[putrevus]

7 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

With IPL win, he is considered captaincy material. Even now, after IPL win, we can see him yelling expletives at all players and also at fielders who are not paying attention. He yelled at a player who was at the boundary line drinking water when he was setting the field before the start of the over.  Perfect role for him to be in the 11 as a non-performer (eg set by Tony)

Nothing wrong in Pandya yelling at Kohli ,Rohit or any other player who is not paying attention. 

[coffee_rules]

12 minutes ago, zen said:

 

While it may have the scorecard of the recent match, OP does not focus on chasing only. It covers scenarios like the recent matches in the T20 WC against Pak & NZ where Ind batted first.

 

The MO has some cool performances. For e.g. SDP only recently delivered the best performance for Ind in T20s by scoring a 50 and picking up 4 wkts. The series against SA, where he played crucial knocks. And versus Ireland ... SKY recently scored a 100 too in the 3rd T20s (Ind rested SDP in that game). 

 

In the last ODI discussed in the OP, where no player from both sides scored a 50, Ind's #5-8 scored 100 runs with most getting out in trying to go for a win (keep up with RR) and not play for an individual 50 or a not out. 

 

Sorry buddy, the specialist batsmen in top order cannot hide. They have failed in 2 out of last 3 games, which is rinse and repeat of their performances in many key games: 

 

 

BATTING		R	B	4s	6s	SR
Rohit Sharma (c)	lbw b Topley	0	10	0	0	0.00
Shikhar Dhawan	c †Buttler b Topley	9	26	1	0	34.61
Virat Kohli	c †Buttler b Willey	16	25	3	0	64.00
Rishabh Pant †	c sub (PD Salt) b Carse	0	5	0	0	0.00

 

 

 

INDIA INNINGS (Target: 216 runs from 20 overs)

BATTING		R	B	M	4s	6s	SR
Rohit Sharma (c)	c Salt b Topley	11	12	26	2	0	91.66
Rishabh Pant †	c †Buttler b Topley	1	5	7	0	0	20.00
Virat Kohli	c Roy b Willey	11	6	8	1	1	183.33

 

 

PS Add to that the  poor performances against a left-arm pacer. 

I have not questioned Pandya in T20s since his resurrection in IPL. You bring up T20s to this discussion. I question his value in ODIs just like Jadeja’s . Keep the topic to ODIs when chips are down. 

[coffee_rules]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Nothing wrong in Pandya yelling at Kohli ,Rohit or any other player who is not paying attention. 

Nothing wrong, but just noticing his rise in stature and it can be exploited

[zen]

17 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I have not questioned Pandya in T20s since his resurrection in IPL. You bring up T20s to this discussion. I question his value in ODIs just like Jadeja’s . Keep the topic to ODIs when chips are down. 

 

The topic focuses on LOIs which includes both ODIs & T20s ... The scorecard in the OP was posted after Ind's top order repeated its performance of the 3rd T20 in the 2nd ODI, w/ a left-arm pacer calling the shots. 

 

PS in ODIs too, I showed that SDP scores 1 50+ score in 5 innings (and getting better), which is only next to Dhoni's, who has played in tons of games. If you are judging #6-7 from how those in #1-3 bat, Tendulkar falls short too. 
 

If you are taking the resurrection in the recent IPL as the starting point, SDP has only batted once in ODIs so far!

Edited July 15, 2022 by zen

[Lord]

57 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Yes everyone knows  they flopped in big matches but they took the team to those big matches.Let these bozos do something in regular matches first. How long do we have to wait for these bozos to perform even in regular matches.

 

They do perform.Don't forget they contribute in all 3 facets. And usually have good game in atleast one. Like Pandya yesterday.Both of them did relatively well in 2019 semi  too after the start,specially Jadeja. 

 

They arent going to make 100s or take 5fers simple because they arent specialist. Their biggest job is to balance the side.

[zen]

32 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

They arent going to make 100s or take 5fers simple because they arent specialist. Their biggest job is to balance the side.

 

The top 3-4 have the best opportunity to score 100s ... Among those who have played at least 20 matches against major teams at #6-7, Ind has only 8 100s in roughly 963 ODI innings, which is 0.0084% ... Unlike the top #1-3, guys lower down do not even get to bat in all the games. Despite such challenges, we still have guys scoring a couple of 90s in Aus, 70 odd in CT final, 70 odd in 2019 WC SF, ... 

[Vijy]

3 hours ago, Adamant said:

Well The top 3 have actually scored against the likes of Amir, Shaheen, Starc in World cup, Asia cup, wt20. 

 

You only remember the failures, that's your problem and not their inability. 

 

yes, when they win trophies, I will remember them. not some sh**ty bilaterals. that's my choice.

[Vijy]

5 hours ago, putrevus said:

You must kidding, or you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you think those top three have scored  more than 80 odi tons on just flat wickets.

yes, the vast majority of those tons were on flat wickets. pulling up a handful of counterexamples is easy, but most were on flat wickets and typically in bilaterals.

 

I have not seen this trio score 100s in KOs of world tournaments on tough pitches (with 1-2 exceptions)

Edited July 15, 2022 by Vijy

[putrevus]

Just now, Vijy said:

yes, the vast majority of those tons were on flat wickets. pulling up a handful of counterexamples is easy, but most were on flat wickets and typically in bilaterals.

 

I have not seen this trio score 100s in KOs on tough pitches with 1-2 exceptions.

Show me one odi 100 by any Indian batsman on tough wicket in knock out matches in last  30  years? 

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

 

CT 2017 final, WC 2019 semi,WC 2021 two games, recent series v WI

 

Thats just from top of my head where they failed. I'm sure there are more.

 

Its the easiest batting position where everyone lines up to bat still they keep playing without success

if there is a KO in a world tournament, this trio will go missing. as simple as that.

 

middle order will then have to bail them out, which they also fail at admittedly.

 

A mediocre team that is content with, and revels in, this mediocrity.

[Lord]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

if there is a KO in a world tournament, this trio will go missing. as simple as that.

 

middle order will then have to bail them out, which they also fail at admittedly.

 

A mediocre team that is content with, and revels in, this mediocrity.

and specially if its a left arm seamer swinging it. This problem has not been rectified in 5 years