Who is India's best pacer of all-time in Tests, ODIs and T20Is?

[Majestic]

5 hours ago, zen said:

 

I think you should "read" the post. 

 

As for Kapil, on many occasions, he has gone through the motions. Even in fielding, he has hardly dived on the field (though that was not common during his time this shows that modern cricketers have more dimensions to work at and therefore more dimensions to get injured). 

 

Bond was an express pace bowler. He functions on additional dimensions where injuries can cut short a career.  Dennis Lillee survived a back injury (many thought he would not come back) to cut down on pace but he did push himself too (so bowling slow has not been equated with going through motions as you have posted above. A bowler can push himself or go through motions irrespective of his bowling speed). 

 

 

 

Kapil is widely rated as one of the best fielders of his time so not sure where this hardly dived thing is coming up from.

 

Bond was a unique case, he was simply a once in a generation fast bowler who also could swing the ball both ways. It is a loss to the game that he ended up with 20 tests only. 

 

Shoaib Akhtar as an example is not rated as highly as Imran, Wasim and Waqar because he was only able to play 45 tests. Same case for Jeff Thomson. Longevity is an important aspect especially for pace bowlers/seamers.

[express bowling]

8 hours ago, Lord said:

Performance obviously means over a substantial sample size.

 

Which ATG has played only 30 Tests?

 

 

I said 40 odd tests ... and Andy Roberts is a good example.  

 

Roberts with 47 tests, Holding with 58 and Garner with 60 tests under their belt are all considered far greater bowlers than Kapil. 

 

No one has ever said that they can't be compared with Kapil because they have played 35% to 45% of what Kapil has played. 

 

Infact, we need to move on from Superstars playing for ever at a moderate level and look for players who perform at a high level for 50 to 60 tests and move away after that.

 

 

[rkt.india]

Yes, Kapil Dev at his peak was Stuart Broad category bowler. Stuart Broad though had much higher peak. 

[singhvivek141]

7 hours ago, Lord said:

No one is avoiding injury. Bowlers as quick as Bond have had far longer careers. Marshall,Steyn,Waqar etc. Bond is nowhere near them simply because he did it for far less. Unfortunate,but thats how it is.

 

Kapil/Vaas/McG etc bowled slower but that was their optimum speed. I don't think they held back intentionally to prolong careers.

Waqar gave up his pace to prolong his career, he was even slower than Srinath in 2003 ODI WC (who was brought back from retirement).

Waqar was fast during 1991-1996...then he gave up and became a medium pacer with occasionally fast medium.

 

McGrath slowed down gradually due to his age, he still was a 132-142 kph bowler in 2003 WC (when he was around 33 years of age)...and then to 127-137 kph bowler in 2007 WC. During 90's he can crank upto 144-145. He was also tall and had an impeccable accuracy like Ambrose.

 

Bond's career was affected with injuries...but he was bowling high 140's even after getting injured frequently (6-19 vs India at the age of 30-31 he was bowling in high 140's consistently). He could have choosen the easier path but he didn't.

[zen]

8 hours ago, Majestic said:

That alone is a greater career than Zaheer Khan, Mohammad Shami and Javagal Srinath with more wickets than latter two and better average considering that there was no support from spinners like Kumble, Harbhajan, Ashwin or Jadeja in case of Kapil Dev.

 

Most fast bowlers fail to maintain their best performance when the sample is huge. That is a very common feature and hence longevity plays an important role when it comes to greatness of a fast bowler.

 

Bumrah has an action which is very injury prone and it is apparent with the fact that at age of 29, he has barely played 30 tests. Kapil played every single test match with no assistance from any other pacer or spinner over a decent period and managed 400+ wickets under 30 average which is alone excellent as a bowler.

 

I am not saying Bumrah can't surpass him but he would need to breach the 250 test wicket mark to achieve that stature.

What you are resorting to is called “cherry picking”.  Tomorrow, someone may ponder that Kapil and Botham were better bowlers than Andy Roberts by cherry-picking on something.
 

When Kapil bowled, one usually felt that India needs better bowlers. While Srinath’s spell against SA in 1996 at A’bad was the first time one felt that India had a pace bowler. 
 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by zen

[zen]

7 hours ago, Majestic said:

Kapil is widely rated as one of the best fielders of his time so not sure where this hardly dived thing is coming up from.

 

Bond was a unique case, he was simply a once in a generation fast bowler who also could swing the ball both ways. It is a loss to the game that he ended up with 20 tests only. 

 

Shoaib Akhtar as an example is not rated as highly as Imran, Wasim and Waqar because he was only able to play 45 tests. Same case for Jeff Thomson. Longevity is an important aspect especially for pace bowlers/seamers.

Kapil hardly pushed himself on the field (or even bowling) like modern cricketers, who are being questioned for their fitness. Even while bowling he went through the motions. Btw, the likes of Azhar were better fielders than Kapil. 
 

Both Bond and Akthar, irrespective of the number of games they have played, are better bowlers than Kapil, who was by and large a one-trick pony with the big outswinger (inswinger to left-handers)!

Edited June 6, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

19 hours ago, putrevus said:

As fast bowler Kapil bowled Aussies out defending 140 for 85 taking 5/18 in Melbourne. 

 

Won 1985 finals in Benson & Hedges World Championship of Cricket with ball taking 3/20 something against Pakistan.

 

Bumrah is better bowler but he is big choker.

 

Bumrah suffered a Thumb injury then a Lower back stress fracture, Abdominal strain, and Back injury. He is not reliable with his injury-prone action. He is never going to play that long. I think his career may have been half over. He is not going to last like Ishant or even Shami. I am prepared to be surprised. But no hope at this point.

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, zen said:

What you are resorting to is called “cherry picking”.  Tomorrow, someone may ponder that Kapil and Botham were better bowlers than Andy Roberts by cherry-picking on something.
 

When Kapil bowled, one usually felt that India needs better bowlers. While Srinath’s spell against SA in 1996 at A’bad was the first time one felt that India had a pace bowler. 
 

 

Cherry picking stats is what you just did like mentioning Srinath 's spell against SA in 1996 or highlighting some random games where Ghavri or someone else is bowling well.

 

Based on my analysis, it doesn't prove that Dev or Botham are better bowlers than Roberts. Roberts was the first great Windies pacer of the quartet, he was the leader of attack. When Roberts played, there were simply not that many tests being played. Just look at the count of test matches played in 1970s and compare it to 1980s and afterwards. The low sample can't go against Andy Roberts.

 

However, since 80s onwards, you simply can't be rated a better bowler than Dev unless you pick 250 wickets at 25-26 or less. That's what he was worth of being a lone warrior of India's bowling for over a decade.

[Majestic]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I said 40 odd tests ... and Andy Roberts is a good example.  

 

Roberts with 47 tests, Holding with 58 and Garner with 60 tests under their belt are all considered far greater bowlers than Kapil. 

 

No one has ever said that they can't be compared with Kapil because they have played 35% to 45% of what Kapil has played. 

 

Infact, we need to move on from Superstars playing for ever at a moderate level and look for players who perform at a high level for 50 to 60 tests and move away after that.

 

 

Roberts played 47 tests because in 70s, there weren't a lot of games played.

 

Kapil picked 247 wickets in 62 tests in first 5 years. If Bumrah can reach that mark at average under 25, he will be the best bowler for India otherwise 150-160 wickets won't be enough. It is not easy to produce bowlers averaging under 25 that you can replace them after every 50 tests.

[Majestic]

7 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Yes, Kapil Dev at his peak was Stuart Broad category bowler. Stuart Broad though had much higher peak. 

Broad has been a flop in Asia and he wasn't your lead bowler like Anderson.

 

Anderson > Kapil > Broad for me.

[vvvslaxman]

it is diabolical to compare bowling across eras without realizing the role they played for their sides and nature of pitches, opposition, umpiring standard. If Bumrah was the only one to carry the bowling in the 80s his career would have been over in 10 tests. It matters. Even in the current era in the second spell a lot of bowlers bowl at a much lower speed. Including KG Rabada, and Joffra Archer. Shami is probably an exception he bowls at the same speed almost the entire day. There was one test when Zaheer Khan bowled 11 overs on the trot in NZ. He was appreciated for his lion-hearted bowling. Kapil Dev did it for 30 overs against West Indies picking 9 for 83.  He had the best numbers against the ATG West Indies side. He is still India's pioneer in fast bowling. Looking at the scoring card and evaluating his contribution is not the brightest way to judge him. He played in a different era, playing a completely different role and a lone role.  Bumrah and other bowlers evolved in bowler friendly era where so many bowlers average in 20s. Ishant sharma who averaged in 30s most of his career suddenly averages 20s in this era.  Heck even Thakur averages only 24.  Jamieson 19. Jansen 22. Bhuvi 18.50 in Tests in the last 7 years !!  

 

I don't think in the last 7 or 8 years bowlers cannot be compared with bowlers from any era.  Broad and Anderson are bowling well even at this age. Better than before. A 40 year old guy who gently trundles his way and have batsmen at his mercy. In the last 7 years Anderson 64 tests 234 wickets 21.49 avge.  Basically he started this streak right about the age when Kapil retired. 

 

Bumrah is still considerd the most impactful we have produced. No doubt about that. But he has to sustain it. 

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, zen said:

Kapil hardly pushed himself on the field (or even bowling) like modern cricketers, who are being questioned for their fitness. Even while bowling he went through the motions. Btw, the likes of Azhar were better fielders than Kapil. 
 

Both Bond and Akthar, irrespective of the number of games they have played, are better bowlers than Kapil, who was by and large a one-trick pony with the big outswinger (inswinger to left-handers)!

Great players stood up against the best of their generation. Kapil Dev stood up against the greatest test team of all-time averaging 23 with the bowl against them, which was better than any of the three all rounders of his era- Imran, Hadlee, Botham.

 

This counts big in his favour as well and he did great in Windies as well. 

[zen]

8 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Cherry picking stats is what you just did like mentioning Srinath 's spell against SA in 1996 or highlighting some random games where Ghavri or someone else is bowling well.

 

Based on my analysis, it doesn't prove that Dev or Botham are better bowlers than Roberts. Roberts was the first great Windies pacer of the quartet, he was the leader of attack. When Roberts played, there were simply not that many tests being played. Just look at the count of test matches played in 1970s and compare it to 1980s and afterwards. The low sample can't go against Andy Roberts.

 

However, since 80s onwards, you simply can't be rated a better bowler than Dev unless you pick 250 wickets at 25-26 or less. That's what he was worth of being a lone warrior of India's bowling for over a decade.

I rate Srinath as a better bowler than Kapil Dev. That was an example of a fast bowler finally arriving versus when Kapil used to bowl, ppl like me feeling that Ind needed better bowlers (if you “read” it is clear).

 

Bond, Akthar, etc. are already better bowlers than Kapil (on which many people in India waste time on trying to prove something he is not as if they owe something to Kapil. Same with likes of Sachin too). 
 

As I said, Kapil was by and large a one trick pony. If a Bhuvneshwar was allowed to continue to play his cricket like Kapil did (just show up on field as if he is doing India a favor)  he would end up with 430 odd wickets too (if not more) in 131 tests. In those 131 tests, he would have a few good tests too.
 

 

[Majestic]

The only fast bowlers/seamers that were better than Kapil Dev in last 50 years in test cricket:

 

Windies - Marshall, Ambrose, Holding, Garner, Roberts, Walsh

 

Australia - Lillee, McGrath, Cummins, Thomson

 

South Africa - Donald, S Pollock, Steyn, Rabada

 

England - Anderson

 

New Zealand - Hadlee, Bond

 

Pakistan - Imran, Wasim, Waqar

 

India/SL - None

 

So, only 20 names are ahead of him in last 50-60 years.

[zen]

9 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Great players stood up against the best of their generation. Kapil Dev stood up against the greatest test team of all-time averaging 23 with the bowl against them, which was better than any of the three all rounders of his era- Imran, Hadlee, Botham.

 

This counts big in his favour as well and he did great in Windies as well. 

 If cherry picking has to be done, Hirwani did well against WI too. So did Amarnath the batsman. 
 

Imran and Hadlee are better bowlers than Kapil, who is a 2nd tier bowler. 
 

In the past, Kapil was hyped by fans because of give and take relationships/attitude like “we will accept that Imran is better, if you accept that Kapil is good too.” And then there would be a barter - “Imran for tests, Kapil for ODIs; bowlers of Pak, batsmen of Ind” and so on. 
 

We are past those times now. Kapil was a king of Indian trundlers, which many laugh at now.
 

 

[Majestic]

8 minutes ago, zen said:

I rate Srinath as a better bowler than Kapil Dev. That was an example of a fast bowler finally arriving versus when Kapil used to bowl, ppl like me feeling that Ind needed better bowlers (if you “read” it is clear).

 

Bond, Akthar, etc. are already better bowlers than Kapil (on which many people in India waste time on trying to prove something he is not as if they owe something to Kapil. Same with likes of Sachin too). 
 

As I said, Kapil was by and large a one trick pony. If a Bhuvneshwar was allowed to continue to play his cricket like Kapil did (just show up on field as if he is doing India a favor)  he would end up with 430 odd wickets too (if not more) in 131 tests. In those 131 tests, he would have a few good tests too.
 

 

Srinath is a faster bowler than Kapil but not better. He averaged 30 in tests even though he played only 60 odd tests with no overseas win in the whole decade of 90s (37 overseas, poor record everywhere overseas except SA). In India, he got enough support from Kumble. 

[Majestic]

12 minutes ago, zen said:

I rate Srinath as a better bowler than Kapil Dev. That was an example of a fast bowler finally arriving versus when Kapil used to bowl, ppl like me feeling that Ind needed better bowlers (if you “read” it is clear).

 

Bond, Akthar, etc. are already better bowlers than Kapil (on which many people in India waste time on trying to prove something he is not as if they owe something to Kapil. Same with likes of Sachin too). 
 

As I said, Kapil was by and large a one trick pony. If a Bhuvneshwar was allowed to continue to play his cricket like Kapil did (just show up on field as if he is doing India a favor)  he would end up with 430 odd wickets too (if not more) in 131 tests. In those 131 tests, he would have a few good tests too.
 

 

By that logic, Pujara is also a timide defensive one trick pony who doesn't have the guts to play any shot and is the king of tuk-tuk land residing with the likes of Akash Chopra, Shiv Sundar Das and other 35-40 strike rate batsman who can barely score anything overseas just like Pujara does with comical average of 20s in SENW conditions.

 

You are not listing a proper explanation on how Kapil managed to pick that many wickets at an average which was still better than Srinath or Zaheer and just accusing him for not being a genuine pace bowler.

[zen]

5 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Srinath is a faster bowler than Kapil but not better. He averaged 30 in tests even though he played only 60 odd tests with no overseas win in the whole decade of 90s (37 overseas, poor record everywhere overseas except SA). In India, he got enough support from Kumble. 

Srinath is a better bowler than Kapil. So are Bumrah, Shami, etc. 

 

I usually advise noobs to stay away from stats. Those stats are available to anyone so the discussion is a little more than that 
 

 

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

By that logic, Pujara is also a timide defensive one trick pony who doesn't have the guts to play any shot and is the king of tuk-tuk land residing with the likes of Akash Chopra, Shiv Sundar Das and other 35-40 strike rate batsman who can barely score anything overseas just like Pujara does with comical average of 20s in SENW conditions.

 

You are not listing a proper explanation on how Kapil managed to pick that many wickets at an average which was still better than Srinath or Zaheer and just accusing him for not being a genuine pace bowler.

Not just Srinath. Ian Bishop, Bruce Ried, Bumrah, etc. irrespective of the stats and games player, are better bowlers. 
 

There is no game where players do not score runs or pick up wickets. No one has said that Kapil is bad or cannot pick up wkts. Just that there are better bowlers! 
 

 

 

 

 

[Majestic]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

 If cherry picking has to be done, Hirwani did well against WI too. So did Amarnath the batsman. 
 

Imran and Hadlee are better bowlers than Kapil, who is a 2nd tier bowler. 
 

In the past, Kapil was hyped by fans because of give and take relationships/attitude like “we will accept that Imran is better, if you accept that Kapil is good too.” And then there would be a barter - “Imran for tests, Kapil for ODIs; bowlers of Pak, batsmen of Ind” and so on. 
 

We are past those times now. Kapil was a king of Indian trundlers, which many laugh at now.
 

 

Kapil Dev 62 tests, 247 wickets- that's not cherry picking. It is as good as a career of a lot of fast bowlers. 

 

What is cherry picking? Mentioning one random series which you did for Srinath and repeating it again for other players.

 

I didn't said that Kapil is better bowler than Imran or Hadlee, I was pointing out his terrific performance vs Windies which was better than those two and Windies were a GOAT test team.

 

Kapil inspite of playing so long maintained an average higher than Srinath. So, basically Kapil was operating at that level for 134 tests while Srinath could only operate for 60 tests at same level. It is stupidity if you claim the latter is better bowler especially considering the latter couldn't even win India one overseas test that whole decade. What kind of express bowler is this that he can't even win one test overseas? Atleast Zak won in England 2007.