Rank them as all rounders in Tests

[zen]

The difference b/w top ARs like Sobers, Imran, & Hadlee and second tier ARs like Kapil and Afridi (in LOIs) is that the top tier ones give consistent X factor performances in a variety of conditions, while the second tier ones give sporadic X factor performances (relying on law of averages) in relatively limited conditions. 
 

Btw, Afridi has 395 ODI wickets, more than any Indian bowler atm. If he played for India, many naively, would rate him as the best Indian ODI bowler based on number of wickets. And of course things like 7/12 would be mentioned to show how he battled single handedly. And of course scored the fastest ODI 100, lifted Pak T20 cricket by winning the 2009 T20WC, and so on!

[vvvslaxman]

This is why I say Ganguly the ODI bowler > Pandya the ODI bowler lol Almost every statnis equal and a much better ER. IlThis bozo could manage only 72 wickets in 7 year career..missed 56 ODIs lol Kapil never missed even one Test due to fitness. 131nof them over a period of 13 years. He also played ODIs in between as an all rounder. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by vvvslaxman

[zen]

Fact: Kapil is not rated higher than Sobers, Imran, etc.,  based on the more matches Kapil played, remaining injury free, not missing matches, or doing more ads like Palmolive da jawab nahin. 
 

[vvvslaxman]

Not rared by as many as pandya Fans which is basically 1 lol

[Zero_Unit]

On 6/19/2023 at 3:22 PM, Majestic said:

Shakib was good enough with bat or bowl. However, I don't think he had the winning attitude or improved much with time.

 

He was just happy having played half of the times in Bangladesh vs minnow teams and being rated as the best cricketer for BD.

Do you blame the guy? BD is a one man team. Without Shakib, they are a fish out of water. 

It would be really interesting to see how Jadeja would have turned out had he played for BD because he would get more opportunities to bat up the order. But regardless, Shakib is a great allrounder - I rate him better than Jadeja. 

[zen]

Btw,  a study of various ARs over their best 45:

 

 

 

Kapil

 

Too bad, they should have factored in:

 

• No support (when Kapil got out bowled in many matches) 
• Injury free (when he had a knee injury iirc and may be perceived as going through motions on the field) 
• The volume of wickets (Unfortunately, ppl looked at averages) 
• Matches played (quality > quantity) 
• Ads (Maybe the Palmolive ad is only shown in India) 
• Village fables and myths (These ppl looked at facts)
• ...

Edited June 21, 2023 by zen

[Adamant]

5 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Overall career average of 22 in ODIs and 31 in tests with high SR make him Indian version of Afridi. Even Afridi was better than main batsmen in some matches. Even Shardul has been better than main batsman in some matches, even Ashwin. Doesn't mean they can play as pure batsmen.

Lemme answer you with some facts here. 

 

Sachin averaged 44 in ODIs at 89 str rate, does that make him less than Babar Azam who averages 60 at 90 or David Miller who averages 43 at 109?

 

Did you forget to account for era difference? 

 

A 23 odi averages of Dev is comparable to atleast 30+ average in this era. Is it not? I thought it was Basic cricket knowledge. 

 

So basically he is a 30+ averaging bat with 27 average as a fast bowler who was a great fielder and won a world cup as captain for India? 

 

Afridi, My foot, left foot. 

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Zero_Unit said:

Do you blame the guy? BD is a one man team. Without Shakib, they are a fish out of water. 

It would be really interesting to see how Jadeja would have turned out had he played for BD because he would get more opportunities to bat up the order. But regardless, Shakib is a great allrounder - I rate him better than Jadeja. 

He did skipped yours which go against him. As for Jadeja and Shakib, I think they are on par with each other but both behind the 80s golden quartet.

[vvvslaxman]

36 minutes ago, Majestic said:

He did skipped yours which go against him. As for Jadeja and Shakib, I think they are on par with each other but both behind the 80s golden quartet.

Yes load sharing   and roles and responsibilities  were uniform for them. May be for Shakib his role is the same everywhere.  Jaddu  played a back up role mostly overseas.   Nothing wrong with that. Not his fault.india wanted a 4 pacer combo. Stokes , cam Green even they don't share the load.

[vvvslaxman]

If a fast bowler plays as 3rd change 4th change bowler who bowls as a last resort then he is just a semi all-rounder. 

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Btw,  a study of various ARs over their best 45:

 

 

 

Kapil

 

Too bad, they should have factored in:

 

• No support (when Kapil got out bowled in many matches) 
• Injury free (when he had a knee injury iirc and may be perceived as going through motions on the field) 
• The volume of wickets (Unfortunately, ppl looked at averages) 
• Matches played (quality > quantity) 
• Ads (Maybe the Palmolive ad is only shown in India) 
• Village fables and myths (These ppl looked at facts)
• ...

Funny part is, you are contradicting your ownself with these stats. Jacques Kallis is rated higher than Imran. However, nobody in their right mind would do that. Like I say, stats is like a bikini. What it reveals is suggestive, but what it conceals is essential!

 

Anybody, who is arguing without actually seeing the performances is no more than a keyboard warrior. Do have a look at Imran's stat over a period of time, and in the latter half, when he actually improved his stats, please check the averages he had in Pakistan as against overseas. 

 

Only a Richard Hadlee or for that matter, Chris Cairns can be considered true performers because they performed almost without any support. Similar to Kapil. 

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Funny part is, you are contradicting your ownself with these stats. Jacques Kallis is rated higher than Imran. However, nobody in their right mind would do that. Like I say, stats is like a bikini. What it reveals is suggestive, but what it conceals is essential!

 

Anybody, who is arguing without actually seeing the performances is no more than a keyboard warrior. Do have a look at Imran's stat over a period of time, and in the latter half, when he actually improved his stats, please check the averages he had in Pakistan as against overseas. 

 

Only a Richard Hadlee or for that matter, Chris Cairns can be considered true performers because they performed almost without any support. Similar to Kapil. 

An empty trash can would come up with better analysis lol

[zen]

2 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Funny part is, you are contradicting your ownself with these stats. Jacques Kallis is rated higher than Imran. However, nobody in their right mind would do that. Like I say, stats is like a bikini. What it reveals is suggestive, but what it conceals is essential!

 

There is no contradiction (maybe you misread something or made assumptions): Sobers = best batting AR, Hadlee = best bowling AR, Imran = best balanced AR. 

 

Kallis's bowling avg in that chart is 33 (32.5). He is a batting AR and not a balanced AR. 

 

 

Quote

Anybody, who is arguing without actually seeing the performances is no more than a keyboard warrior. Do have a look at Imran's stat over a period of time, and in the latter half, when he actually improved his stats, please check the averages he had in Pakistan as against overseas. 

 

Unnecessary point. Most folks have not seen Barnes or Bradman or Sobers. 

 

I have seen various aspects of Imran's stats … There is another thread on ARs by the same OP where I have posted a few #s iirc (you can search for it or request the OP to provide you with a link).

 

PS Taking about Home v Away # posted on this thread  - here

 

 

 

Quote

Only a Richard Hadlee or for that matter, Chris Cairns can be considered true performers because they performed almost without any support. Similar to Kapil. 

 

Kapil is a second tier AR. No amount of candy floss (including watched them play as if it means anything or see beyond #s or whatever ) can change that 

 

(Btw,  I have watched Kapil, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, etc. too). 

Edited June 21, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

There is always a last rankholder in every class. We have one here lol

[zen]

 

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

There is always a last rankholder in every class. We have one here lol

 

Btw, do you actually laugh when you write lol or cry ... who are you addressing (let’s see the names of those you are trying to hide among)

 

Petulant multiple trolling attempts (but expected from a guy who hasn't grown up yet "lol")

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

Triggered. Lol

[zen]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Triggered. Lol

 

"lol"

 

 

[Majestic]

My rating on 10 would be :

 

Sobers - 10/10

Imran - 9.75/10

Kallis - 9.5/10

 

Botham - 9/10

Miller - 9/10

Kapil - 8.5/10( 0.5 deducted due to batting, not bowling- he should have hit 15 100s)

 

Cairns - 8/10

Greig - 8/10

Jadeja - 8/10

Stokes - 8/10

 

Shakib - 7.5/10( barely played 10 out of 65 matches in Aus, SA, Eng, Ind, NZ and Pak/UAE)

Flintoff - 7.5/10

[Majestic]

Coming to Kapil's bowling again, there is another point which people often fails to consider is that when you play a lot of tests and even if you have impact, your average may get a hit due to simply playing lot of games.

 

As example, in 2020s, Joe Root averages 56 with bat while Williamson averages 72. But anyone who has followed the game closely in last 3 years can tell that Joe Root has been by far the best batsman of this decade. If he played 10 test lesser, his average would have been 10 higher arguably.

 

Cricket is not a linear game so if you are in purple patch and hit 5 hundreds in 7 tests in a given year, this doesn't necessarily mean that if you had played 14 tests that year, you would have hit 10 hundreds. Hence, Kapil's first 5 years where he played 62 tests and picked 248 wkts at 27 with no support is arguably an ATG level first half. He diminished in second half and hence ends up as an Indian great as a bowler.

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Coming to Kapil's bowling again, there is another point which people often fails to consider is that when you play a lot of tests and even if you have impact, your average may get a hit due to simply playing lot of games.

 

As example, in 2020s, Joe Root averages 56 with bat while Williamson averages 72. But anyone who has followed the game closely in last 3 years can tell that Joe Root has been by far the best batsman of this decade. If he played 10 test lesser, his average would have been 10 higher arguably.

 

Cricket is not a linear game so if you are in purple patch and hit 5 hundreds in 7 tests in a given year, this doesn't necessarily mean that if you had played 14 tests that year, you would have hit 10 hundreds. Hence, Kapil's first 5 years where he played 62 tests and picked 248 wkts at 27 with no support is arguably an ATG level first half. He diminished in second half and hence ends up as an Indian great as a bowler.

 

His performance against ATG Windies side is enough to maintain his legacy. We don't even talk about his captaincy to win 1983 world cup. India beat West Indies in 3 out of 4 matches during that phase something nobody could dream of.  Then that MCG heroic where he used pain killer to overcome his pain to bowl Australia out for 83 when they were chasing a meagre 143.  From what i heard every news paper in the country had that news on the full front page. Because that was a massive achievement by India. India had no identity without him. He inspired a generation of players. 40 years gone. We still have not foudn remotely half as good as Kapil dev. Closest was Irfan.

Edited June 22, 2023 by vvvslaxman