A few rants about team selection, Shubman Gill etc

[BacktoCricaddict]

11 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he definitely can't carry the team. on current evidence, he is not at the level where gavaskar, dravid, kohli, etc. were after playing a similar number of tests. and yes, SRT had a bad start, but that was due to his extreme youth.

Gavaskar was in a different zone.

 

But after 16 tests:

Kohli had 1032 runs at 41 with 4 100s, batting mainly in the M.O.  None of those matches were in England.

Gill has 921 runs at 32 with 2 100s, mainly as an opener. 3 of those matches were in England.  Plus that match-win-setupping-knock in Brisbane earns extra credit.

 

IMO, they are comparable. Given time, role-clarity and mentorship, he will be excellent, IMO. 

 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Gavaskar was in a different zone.

 

But after 16 tests:

Kohli had 1032 runs at 41 with 4 100s, batting mainly in the M.O.  None of those matches were in England.

Gill has 921 runs at 32 with 2 100s, mainly as an opener. 3 of those matches were in England.  Plus that match-win-setupping-knock in Brisbane earns extra credit.

 

IMO, they are comparable. Given time, role-clarity and mentorship, he will be excellent, IMO. 

 

dude, the diff is 9 runs. and it's not like Gill never opened -- he did so often in Ranjis, if you followed them. And 2 good knocks in Oz are not enough. his 2 100s were on really poor tracks; more so than Kohli's 4 100s that I do remember. they are not comparable at this stage in the career.

 

first, Flashy needs to move into MO. second, if he fails for 5-10 tests, he should be booted. I don't think we are saying too much different things regarding these two points.

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

better these youngsters in place of old washed-up players. unless you would like to see rohit play for another 5 years. as a rohit "fan", you may like the idea... or not

 

Not random youngsters based on "Ranji" stats  ... Properly evaluated youngsters based on temperament, technique, and talent. 

 

Otherwise, the team is playing musical chairs, hardly building a team, as after a few tests, a new player gets a shot, and so on. And if so after a few years, the team would be more or less at the same point where it started. 

 

 

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Not random youngsters based on "Ranji" stats  ... Properly evaluated youngsters based on temperament, technique, and talent. 

 

Otherwise, the team is playing musical chairs, hardly building a team, as after a few tests, a new player gets a shot, and so on. And if so after a few years, the team would be more or less at the same point where it started. 

 

 

not just ranji stats. people like jasiwal have done well in most opportunities (irani, Ind A, etc); maybe even easwaran (who is not a youngster). sarfaraz is the only Ranji bully, which is why he can be a SC specialist.

[zen]

Just now, Vijy said:

not just ranji stats. people like jasiwal have done well in most opportunities (irani, Ind A, etc); maybe even easwaran (who is not a youngster). sarfaraz is the only Ranji bully, which is why he can be a SC specialist.

 

Jaiswal can work in subcon, not too sure in SEN esp. early on in his career ... In Aus, may be (not seen his game against short bowling. I have seen ppl mention Head's weakness esp. with the bowling directed to his body, so if these guys have similar weaknesses, they could lose confidence). 

[BacktoCricaddict]

9 minutes ago, Vijy said:

dude, the diff is 9 runs. and it's not like Gill never opened -- he did so often in Ranjis, if you followed them. And 2 good knocks in Oz are not enough. his 2 100s were on really poor tracks; more so than Kohli's 4 100s that I do remember. they are not comparable at this stage in the career.

 

first, Flashy needs to move into MO. second, if he fails for 5-10 tests, he should be booted. I don't think we are saying too much different things regarding these two points.

I knew you would point that out and wish I could get the N.O. stats, but couldn't. Typically, M.O. bats have higher averages than openers (with exceptions like Gavaskar).

 

My point was that he is more exposed to the moving ball (6 out of 32 innings) have been against the moving ball in England, so that could skew things.

 

Plus Gabba ... :-)

[Vijy]

4 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

I knew you would point that out and wish I could get the N.O. stats, but couldn't. Typically, M.O. bats have higher averages than openers (with exceptions like Gavaskar).

 

My point was that he is more exposed to the moving ball (6 out of 32 innings) have been against the moving ball in England, so that could skew things.

 

Plus Gabba ... :-)

to counter the Eng knocks, he played on an absolute road for his 2 100s. overall, I think he deserves a run in the MO. but I don't feel we should hype him as the next big batting talent from Ind

 

If anything, glass man Sundar impressed me more in his outings than gill, but the sample size is admittedly too low

[nevada]

34 minutes ago, Vijy said:

correct. this flat track basher can't play spin.

Can't play swing or the incoming ball either. Whether he works on fixing these issues or tries to paper over the cracks with flat track feasting remains to be seen. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

29 minutes ago, Vijy said:

to counter the Eng knocks, he played on an absolute road for his 2 100s. overall, I think he deserves a run in the MO. but I don't feel we should hype him as the next big batting talent from Ind

 

If anything, glass man Sundar impressed me more in his outings than gill, but the sample size is admittedly too low

Agreed regarding Sundar.  Very impressive. Just hope he can get himself out of the injury rut. He can be a true asset to the test team. I had even been pitching him as an opener candidate :-).

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Agreed regarding Sundar.  Very impressive. Just hope he can get himself out of the injury rut. He can be a true asset to the test team. I had even been pitching him as an opener candidate :-).

 

Yea. But he will be treated as an all rounder always. So he will have to fight for a spot with bowlers rather than batsmen. Shreyas Iyer out. pant out. KL Rahul out. So there are a lot of openings. He probably had a shot. But Axar has done well with bat as well. India has too many spinning all rounders. But pace all rounders are none. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Yea. But he will be treated as an all rounder always. So he will have to fight for a spot with bowlers rather than batsmen. Shreyas Iyer out. pant out. KL Rahul out. So there are a lot of openings. He probably had a shot. But Axar has done well with bat as well. India has too many spinning all rounders. But pace all rounders are none. 

Disservice, really, that players are typecast early on and only considered for certain slots.  I am sure it will be the same thing with Jaiswal - he won't crack the XI until Rohit leaves, even if a MO slot opens up.  And to think that Rohit himself started off in the MO, as did India's 2nd best test opener of all time.

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Disservice, really, that players are typecast early on and only considered for certain slots.  I am sure it will be the same thing with Jaiswal - he won't crack the XI until Rohit leaves, even if a MO slot opens up.  And to think that Rohit himself started off in the MO, as did India's 2nd best test opener of all time.

 

If a bowler performs poorly he loses his spot much faster compared to batsmen. Ishant after a couple of series he was gone. But our batsmen still get to play even after failures series after series.

[Sandz]

38 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Disservice, really, that players are typecast early on and only considered for certain slots.  I am sure it will be the same thing with Jaiswal - he won't crack the XI until Rohit leaves, even if a MO slot opens up.  And to think that Rohit himself started off in the MO, as did India's 2nd best test opener of all time.

Once Pujara is dropped, Gill can move to MO and Jaiswal can open, so a slot is going to open up soon, he will debut Vs WI me thinks.

[sandeep]

12 hours ago, Jamadagni said:

He is basically rich man's Kohli. 

+1

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Agreed regarding Sundar.  Very impressive. Just hope he can get himself out of the injury rut. He can be a true asset to the test team. I had even been pitching him as an opener candidate :-).

It will be a bit too much for him right away. would rather first see him at no. 5, since he can arrest collapses, and then maybe move him upward

[Adamant]

13 hours ago, Jamadagni said:

He is basically rich man's Kohli. 

That's a hyperbole. 

 

[Vijy]

3 hours ago, Adamant said:

That's a hyperbole. 

 

it is IMO. you know I am a severe critic of brat (especially post 2020), and yet I pointed out quite a few times in this thread that, at the same stage of career in terms of number of tests, kohli was ahead than flashy gill; at least, one can argue they were roughly on par

 

gill could still improve since these are early days, but I am not happy with the beginnings.

[vvvslaxman]

8 minutes ago, Vijy said:

it is IMO. you know I am a severe critic of brat (especially post 2020), and yet I pointed out quite a few times in this thread that, at the same stage of career in terms of number of tests, kohli was ahead than flashy gill; at least, one can argue they were roughly on par

 

gill could still improve since these are early days, but I am not happy with the beginnings.

 

Brat developed a secure game that was sustainable until his reflexes started waning.  Gill has to find such a game. His issues are more fixable than what Prithvi has. But he has to improve his game on spinning tracks. 

[Vijy]

4 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Brat developed a secure game that was sustainable until his reflexes started waning.  Gill has to find such a game. His issues are more fixable than what Prithvi has. But he has to improve his game on spinning tracks. 

also vs swing and seam in overcast conditions.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

also vs swing and seam in overcast conditions.

 

Part of the reason is adaptability issue. Be it is a bowler or batsman  it is not easy for everyone to switch between format seamlessly.  Some find it hard. Some find it easy. Kohli for a period could do that. But that style of innings building doesn't work anymore. He will be an all format player for sure. So he has to find a way to play. For example in the firs tinnings he well left the ball that came back in. In a T20 he would have played and probably would not have got out.  He never had to leave a ball in T20 or ODI. So he has no idea which ball to leave which ball to play. Kohli did pretty much exactly the same in his first tour.

 

43.4 whoah! after nearly an hour of snoozeworthy cricket, Plunkett has brought this crowd alive, he has two in two, Kohli is gone for a golden duck, he was looking to shoulder arms to a short of length ball that angled in, that nips in a long way and crashes into the top of off, wow, Test cricket 118/3

 

13.4 he's out leaving the ball again! Kohli looks dreadfully disappointed. He was on the back foot, shuffling and the ball has stayed on with the angle in at him. Dharmasena takes a long look and finally raises the finger. Ball tracker says it would have been on-field call, just about kissing off stump 26/3

 

But fixed in the 2nd tour. For Gill this is 3rd tour in cluding WTC final. Plus he did play county cricket. So he should be familiar with these kind of deliveries. If there is one  example i can bring up is Murali Vijay on the same tour. He faced more t han 1000 balls.  Faced 996 balls from the quicks.  Left 403 balls without any incident. He was impeccable. Kohli did try to replicate that.