A few rants about team selection, Shubman Gill etc

[BacktoCricaddict]

Team selection:

There is a school of thought going around that youngsters like Jaiswal, Sarfaraz etc would've done no better than the oldies over the past few years, and hence it was imperative that we played the oldies. While it may be true that a youngster may have averaged only as much as a senior, they have room to learn and grow.  They are ascending. Their peak is a few years away, whereas the oldies are past their peak and on a descending path with very little to no chance that they can turn it around. So their low average can only get lower.  So, the argument that "youngsters would've shat their pants and done no better" doesn't hold up. It's time for Rohit, Pujara etc to hang it up. 

 

Shubman Gill:

It is way too harsh to just use the WTC Final to say "he is arrogant ... only cares about stardom ... success got to his head etc. etc."  It was just 2 innings. Remember, except for Rahane, the entire top order stunk it up. Just 2 weeks prior, Gill was playing white ball cricket in totally different conditions.  He was not put in a position to succeed here.  No practice matches, no time to adjust, just go play the moving ball as an opener. 

 

He has proven that he has the temperament. He has also proven that he is willing to adapt and improve - just 2 years ago, his IPL performance was unispiring. Today, he is batting like a dream. We should show confidence in these promising youngsters and not question their dedication and character until they fail to correct their mistakes long-term (a la Prithvi Shaw).

 

/rant

[waga]

has he proven his temperament? 

He has proven his talent and ability to play shots but he's never done much on anything that isn't flat except for a few scratchy innings where a lot of catches didn't go to hand. 

I think the point is the ego probably isn't justified based off being a junior batter averaging 32 

[Vijy]

56 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Team selection:

There is a school of thought going around that youngsters like Jaiswal, Sarfaraz etc would've done no better than the oldies over the past few years, and hence it was imperative that we played the oldies. While it may be true that a youngster may have averaged only as much as a senior, they have room to learn and grow.  They are ascending. Their peak is a few years away, whereas the oldies are past their peak and on a descending path with very little to no chance that they can turn it around. So their low average can only get lower.  So, the argument that "youngsters would've shat their pants and done no better" doesn't hold up. It's time for Rohit, Pujara etc to hang it up. 

 

Shubman Gill:

It is way too harsh to just use the WTC Final to say "he is arrogant ... only cares about stardom ... success got to his head etc. etc."  It was just 2 innings. Remember, except for Rahane, the entire top order stunk it up. Just 2 weeks prior, Gill was playing white ball cricket in totally different conditions.  He was not put in a position to succeed here.  No practice matches, no time to adjust, just go play the moving ball as an opener. 

 

He has proven that he has the temperament. He has also proven that he is willing to adapt and improve - just 2 years ago, his IPL performance was unispiring. Today, he is batting like a dream. We should show confidence in these promising youngsters and not question their dedication and character until they fail to correct their mistakes long-term (a la Prithvi Shaw).

 

/rant

it's not about 2 innings though. Gill the Flashy has done little of note (even lesser than kohli after same no. of tests) once we remove his debut in Oz. yes, he was in and out of squad, but he did get to play a few tests consecutively. the 2 100s he has are quite useless (let us not forget that the over-the-hill kohli scored more than him in ahmedabad patta).

 

agree with you re: playing youngsters. I think they deserve at least 10 tests to prove themselves (or not, as the case may be). likewise, I am not advocating for gill being dropped right now, but if he displays this loose flashiness for 5-10 more tests in MO, then he should be dropped.

[Vijy]

35 minutes ago, waga said:

has he proven his temperament? 

He has proven his talent and ability to play shots but he's never done much on anything that isn't flat except for a few scratchy innings where a lot of catches didn't go to hand. 

I think the point is the ego probably isn't justified based off being a junior batter averaging 32 

he has proven that he is a flashy flat track basher, which is quite useful in LOIs

[BacktoCricaddict]

58 minutes ago, waga said:

has he proven his temperament? 

He has proven his talent and ability to play shots but he's never done much on anything that isn't flat except for a few scratchy innings where a lot of catches didn't go to hand. 

I think the point is the ego probably isn't justified based off being a junior batter averaging 32 

I don't know ... maybe I am still stuck in Brisbane 2021. Unforgettable innings that shaped the most memorable Indian win, ever. And he's had a couple following that one, too, no?

 

When an inexperienced player is not given enough time to settle, practice and adapt after playing T20s for 2 months, I don't think it is fair to expect him to carry the team.

[wanted_desi]

Gill is not test opener, he will be good asset at #4. 

[Jamadagni]

People are doubting Gill? The best talent in world cricket right now, and the best India has produced since Sachin in terms of natural talent. He is basically rich man's Kohli. 

[Frustrated]

Gill's score in the last 6 test innings in SENA: 28, 8, 17, 4, 13, 18.       (Avg : 14) 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Frustrated

[Chakdephatte]

4 hours ago, Frustrated said:

Gill's score in the last 6 test innings in SENA: 28, 8, 17, 4, 13, 18.       (Avg : 14) 

 

England. Not just SENA.

Our batsmen are always more suited to Australia type conditions than here. That applies to him and Pant.

[nevada]

7 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

I don't know ... maybe I am still stuck in Brisbane 2021. Unforgettable innings that shaped the most memorable Indian win, ever. And he's had a couple following that one, too, no?

 

When an inexperienced player is not given enough time to settle, practice and adapt after playing T20s for 2 months, I don't think it is fair to expect him to carry the team.

Gill is a fairweather friend. Needs to play a few big innings on challenging tracks to gain credibility as a reliable all condition player. I was so looking forward to him making an impact in the WTC final. But he again played unconvincingly. But I would still back him instead of giving more rope to a declined oldie. 

[Sandz]

9 hours ago, Vijy said:

it's not about 2 innings though. Gill the Flashy has done little of note (even lesser than kohli after same no. of tests) once we remove his debut in Oz. yes, he was in and out of squad, but he did get to play a few tests consecutively. the 2 100s he has are quite useless (let us not forget that the over-the-hill kohli scored more than him in ahmedabad patta).

 

agree with you re: playing youngsters. I think they deserve at least 10 tests to prove themselves (or not, as the case may be). likewise, I am not advocating for gill being dropped right now, but if he displays this loose flashiness for 5-10 more tests in MO, then he should be dropped.

Why would you remove his debut series? That’s selective bias, with that 91 in 4th innings he did more that Sachin or Kohli did in their entire career where they set up a 4th innings win in SENA. 
 

See if you think Gill won’t succeed in Test cricket then am afraid none of the youngsters will either, all will end up being T20 hacks and we can kiss goodbye to Indian test cricket.

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

England. Not just SENA.

Our batsmen are always more suited to Australia type conditions than here. That applies to him and Pant.

 

Yes. This SENA filter is one of the misleading factor.  Australia has truer wickets. Kookaburra doesn't seam around, drier conditions don't allow the ball to swing much either. Mostly it comes gun barrell straight. You just have to negotiate bounce which Gill is good at. Having said that Pant has  managed to adjust in few places. I know he plays older ball. But ball swings for 40-50 overs in England. Gill is being too flashy to be successful there. That is one thing i was hoping Dravid to fix. Seems like Vikram Rathore is doing the batting coaching

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, nevada said:

Gill is a fairweather friend. Needs to play a few big innings on challenging tracks to gain credibility as a reliable all condition player. I was so looking forward to him making an impact in the WTC final. But he again played unconvincingly. But I would still back him instead of giving more rope to a declined oldie. 

 

His knocks at Bangladesh was making him look like a tailender. On turning wickets he had no idea how to  use the crease. He was blindly running towards the bowller. It is not just the dismissal. His whole stay at the crease was very unconvincing. Only reason that didn't get discussed because Kohli looked even worse so was Pujara/ So was KL Rahul.

[Vijy]

3 hours ago, Sandz said:

Why would you remove his debut series? That’s selective bias, with that 91 in 4th innings he did more that Sachin or Kohli did in their entire career where they set up a 4th innings win in SENA. 
 

See if you think Gill won’t succeed in Test cricket then am afraid none of the youngsters will either, all will end up being T20 hacks and we can kiss goodbye to Indian test cricket.

I am not removing it from the sample altogether; it is a figure of speech, not meant to be taken literally. I meant that he hasn't done anything of note beyond that debut series. and that series was a while ago.

 

And yes, I think we can say goodbye to test cricket. and also to LOIs in WC tourneys. we will still be bilateral kings though.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Vijy

[Vijy]

13 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

I don't know ... maybe I am still stuck in Brisbane 2021. Unforgettable innings that shaped the most memorable Indian win, ever. And he's had a couple following that one, too, no?

 

When an inexperienced player is not given enough time to settle, practice and adapt after playing T20s for 2 months, I don't think it is fair to expect him to carry the team.

he definitely can't carry the team. on current evidence, he is not at the level where gavaskar, dravid, kohli, etc. were after playing a similar number of tests. and yes, SRT had a bad start, but that was due to his extreme youth.

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

His knocks at Bangladesh was making him look like a tailender. On turning wickets he had no idea how to  use the crease. He was blindly running towards the bowller. It is not just the dismissal. His whole stay at the crease was very unconvincing. Only reason that didn't get discussed because Kohli looked even worse so was Pujara/ So was KL Rahul.

correct. this flat track basher can't play spin.

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Yes. This SENA filter is one of the misleading factor.  Australia has truer wickets. Kookaburra doesn't seam around, drier conditions don't allow the ball to swing much either. Mostly it comes gun barrell straight. You just have to negotiate bounce which Gill is good at. Having said that Pant has  managed to adjust in few places. I know he plays older ball. But ball swings for 40-50 overs in England. Gill is being too flashy to be successful there. That is one thing i was hoping Dravid to fix. Seems like Vikram Rathore is doing the batting coaching

that explains a lot.

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

correct. this flat track basher can't play spin.

 

Sarfraz/Eswaran could have been given a chance. I have watched Eswaran in one first class. I think Irani Trophy. He has wide range of sweeps against spinners including reverse. He executes with precision. But i can't vouch for his game against pace since our domestic bowlers are upto standards. Jaiswal also played well.

Edited June 19, 2023 by vvvslaxman

[zen]

A "youngster" is less likely to debut in a final (and that too in a game outside of India). Youngsters would ideally need to play a few series before being drafted into an imp game. There is a fashion of shouting "youngsters" and when those "youngsters" play, a different set of "youngsters" are rooted for. 

 

 

 

 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, zen said:

A "youngster" is less likely to debut in a final (and that too in a game outside of India). Youngsters would ideally need to play a few series before being drafted into an imp game. There is a fashion of shouting "youngsters" and when those "youngsters" play, a different set of "youngsters" are rooted for. 

 

 

 

 

better these youngsters in place of old washed-up players. unless you would like to see rohit play for another 5 years. as a rohit "fan", you may like the idea... or not