Adamant Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 I rate Siraj as a better bowler than Shami in all formats of the game and I think his peak is also gonna be way higher. So I rate this attack better, as it has two of the top 5 fast bowlers in odi cricket. Prolly the best spinner in odi ATM and a much improved Hardik Pandya(no comparison to his bowling in 2019) Also, Shardul is a wildcard pick, he has the knack of picking up wickets and is clutch , I trust him. Link to comment
sensible-indian Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 16 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said: There are 3 spinners in the squad. No other Top 6 side has 3 spinners who are primarily spinners. They have 1 wrist spinner and then 1 spin allrounder who can hit. The remaining spin they get from part time spinners who are primarily batsmen. It's no accident that England have brought 6 seam options. Despite the fact that the World Cup is in India, none of these teams have picked the 3rd spinner in the squad. And India have played the Axar, Jadeja, Kuldeep combo both in Australia series and in Asia Cup. Its not like India has Yuvi or Sehwag who can bowl good part time. Moreover, each team comes with its own strengths and weaknesses. By aping SENA, we lost a WTC finals needlessly. Juat cos they dont do it doesnt mean we shouldnt cos the resources at disposal are vastly different. putrevus and Lord 1 1 Link to comment
sensible-indian Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 If needed india can always go with a 4+1 combination. Bumrah Siraj Shami / Shardul Pandya Kuldeep So we do hold that option. Link to comment
Lord Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, sensible-indian said: If needed india can always go with a 4+1 combination. Bumrah Siraj Shami / Shardul Pandya Kuldeep So we do hold that option. We need 6 bowling options Link to comment
Lord Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 5 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said: They wouldn't have had we played the extra pacer. Or had reviewed Roy's caught behind off Pandya. England feasted on the 2 wrist spinners. We played 3 genuine pacers plus Pandya. Link to comment
sensible-indian Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, Lord said: We need 6 bowling options Yeah. Then middle order looks shaky as hell. 10/2 and the match is done. We need some part timers at the top to chip in. What are our options? Link to comment
Lord Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 Just now, sensible-indian said: Yeah. Then middle order looks shaky as hell. 10/2 and the match is done. We need some part timers at the top to chip in. What are our options? If Iyer isn't there, ask Kohli to bat at 4 and include Jaiswal (will give some overs too) If Iyer is there, straight up ask him to roll his arm over for 3-4 overs if needed. He was very bad when he bowled in SA Link to comment
Nikhil_cric Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 20 minutes ago, sensible-indian said: Its not like India has Yuvi or Sehwag who can bowl good part time. Moreover, each team comes with its own strengths and weaknesses. By aping SENA, we lost a WTC finals needlessly. Juat cos they dont do it doesnt mean we shouldnt cos the resources at disposal are vastly different. We didn't ape SENA in anything. What did we ape?We would have lost the recent WTC final anyway because their bowling attack in particular was quicker, more accurate and more varied. Let's not even get started on the batting. The fact that we haven't developed a part time spinner is our own fault. But that doesn't mean you end up playing a guy who can neither take enough wickets or hit a long ball at a crucial place like XI Suhaan 1 Link to comment
Nash Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 It depends on how's their form. On paper, they are excellent. if kuldeep is found out against Semi finals, Jadeja might fill in. Rememeber that Jaddu is excellent in indian conditions. Ashwin/sunder all depends on the the batsman. A good quality one can play them well and also smack some sixes. Link to comment
Nikhil_cric Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 14 minutes ago, Lord said: We played 3 genuine pacers plus Pandya. No we didn't. We played Bumrah + Shami + Pandya + Chahal + Kuldeep. And KulCha got absolutely destroyed . Mind you, we were hyping KulCha as the greatest spin bowling duo in our ODI history , which they probably were. If they couldn't do it with the kind of bowling form they were in, there's no hope for a finger spinner especially one who can't deepen that batting lineup. Instead we have a lineup now with an even inferior spinner who can't hit at 7 instead of getting another batsman into that middle order and getting 4 overs of part time spin. Link to comment
Lord Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 16 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said: No we didn't. We played Bumrah + Shami + Pandya + Chahal + Kuldeep. And KulCha got absolutely destroyed . Mind you, we were hyping KulCha as the greatest spin bowling duo in our ODI history , which they probably were. If they couldn't do it with the kind of bowling form they were in, there's no hope for a finger spinner especially one who can't deepen that batting lineup. Instead we have a lineup now with an even inferior spinner who can't hit at 7 instead of getting another batsman into that middle order and getting 4 overs of part time spin. yeah thought Bhuvi also played. My bad. Though it was a patta and England conditions meant there was something for pacers but not for spinners. Complete different story here. The biggest issue is not top oder not giving even 5 overs combined. Their laziness is making us do all these jugaad. Link to comment
R!TTER Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, Nash said: Rememeber that Jaddu is excellent in indian conditions. In tests, not LO where he has a poor record - WT20 2016 comes to mind. 11 minutes ago, Nash said: if kuldeep is found out Found out where? If he's good enough he'll do well, if not he fails! SL hid Malinga against Oz in 2007 WC & they still demolished them in the finals. Wanna see other Indian bowlers' records in KO games? You'd also be shocked to see Zaheer's record before the 2011 WC at home! View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1990 Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut) or ICC Men's T20 World Cup or World Cup Tournament type 5+ team tournaments Match type tournament finals or tournament cons. finals or tournament semi-finals or tournament quarter-finals Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 5 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 15 of 15 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff IK Pathan 2007-2007 2 3 3* - 0 5 3/16 12.00 0 0 0 - I Sharma 2013-2013 2 - - - - 5 3/33 13.80 0 1 0 - UT Yadav 2013-2015 4 0 0 0.00 0 9 4/31 15.88 0 0 0 -15.88 BKV Prasad 1996-2000 5 6 6* - 0 10 3/27 21.90 0 3 0 - SR Tendulkar 1996-2011 15 657 141 50.53 1 15 4/38 26.66 0 6 0 23.87 Z Khan 2000-2011 11 26 13* 8.66 0 17 3/14 28.64 0 5 0 -19.98 B Kumar 2013-2022 8 2 1* 2.00 0 8 3/43 31.62 0 1 0 -29.62 Harbhajan Singh 2002-2011 10 23 12 7.66 0 12 3/27 31.83 0 1 0 -24.16 A Nehra 2002-2016 5 10 8* 10.00 0 5 2/11 33.20 0 0 0 -23.19 Yuvraj Singh 2000-2017 17 458 84 38.16 0 8 2/44 33.62 0 8 0 4.54 R Ashwin 2011-2022 11 10 5 3.33 0 12 3/22 34.08 0 6 0 -30.74 A Kumble 1996-2002 9 24 12 12.00 0 10 3/48 41.40 0 6 0 -29.39 J Srinath 1996-2003 7 30 12* 15.00 0 8 3/34 42.50 0 1 0 -27.49 RA Jadeja 2013-2019 10 164 77 54.66 0 7 2/24 53.00 0 5 0 1.66 AB Agarkar 1998-2002 7 28 15* 14.00 0 5 2/59 56.60 0 2 0 -42.59 Link to comment
Lord Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, R!TTER said: In tests, not LO where he has a poor record - WT20 2016 comes to mind. There he did well in league stages in all games. SF was heavily dew affected where Ash and Pandu bowled no balls. Ash bowled only 2 overs because of that. 4 minutes ago, R!TTER said: Found out where? If he's good enough he'll do well, if not he fails! SL hid Malinga against Oz in 2007 WC & they still demolished them in the finals. Wanna see other Indian bowlers' records in KO games? You'd also be shocked to see Zaheer's record before the 2011 WC at home! View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1990 Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut) or ICC Men's T20 World Cup or World Cup Tournament type 5+ team tournaments Match type tournament finals or tournament cons. finals or tournament semi-finals or tournament quarter-finals Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 5 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 15 of 15 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff IK Pathan 2007-2007 2 3 3* - 0 5 3/16 12.00 0 0 0 - I Sharma 2013-2013 2 - - - - 5 3/33 13.80 0 1 0 - UT Yadav 2013-2015 4 0 0 0.00 0 9 4/31 15.88 0 0 0 -15.88 BKV Prasad 1996-2000 5 6 6* - 0 10 3/27 21.90 0 3 0 - SR Tendulkar 1996-2011 15 657 141 50.53 1 15 4/38 26.66 0 6 0 23.87 Z Khan 2000-2011 11 26 13* 8.66 0 17 3/14 28.64 0 5 0 -19.98 B Kumar 2013-2022 8 2 1* 2.00 0 8 3/43 31.62 0 1 0 -29.62 Harbhajan Singh 2002-2011 10 23 12 7.66 0 12 3/27 31.83 0 1 0 -24.16 A Nehra 2002-2016 5 10 8* 10.00 0 5 2/11 33.20 0 0 0 -23.19 Yuvraj Singh 2000-2017 17 458 84 38.16 0 8 2/44 33.62 0 8 0 4.54 R Ashwin 2011-2022 11 10 5 3.33 0 12 3/22 34.08 0 6 0 -30.74 A Kumble 1996-2002 9 24 12 12.00 0 10 3/48 41.40 0 6 0 -29.39 J Srinath 1996-2003 7 30 12* 15.00 0 8 3/34 42.50 0 1 0 -27.49 RA Jadeja 2013-2019 10 164 77 54.66 0 7 2/24 53.00 0 5 0 1.66 AB Agarkar 1998-2002 7 28 15* 14.00 0 5 2/59 56.60 0 2 0 -42.59 Agree hiding doesnt add to mystery in the age of extensive video analysis Link to comment
R!TTER Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 12 minutes ago, Lord said: There he did well in league stages in all games. SF was heavily dew affected where Ash and Pandu bowled no balls. Even taking that into account his record is generally poor, after CT 2013 he flopped in 2015 KO games especially vs Oz, then CT 2017 vs Pak though did well vs NZ in 2019 - he's not that much consistent in LO & his record depends a lot on the type of pitches served. Kuldeep will take pitches out of the equation. Lord 1 Link to comment
R!TTER Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 It's even worse than I thought - View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2014 Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut) or ICC Men's T20 World Cup or World Cup Tournament type 5+ team tournaments Match type tournament finals or tournament cons. finals or tournament semi-finals or tournament quarter-finals Qualifications innings bowled in greater than or equal to 4 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 6 of 6 First Previous Next Last http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff B Kumar 2014-2022 6 1 1* 1.00 0 7 3/43 30.85 0 0 0 -29.85 MM Sharma 2014-2015 4 0 0 0.00 0 4 2/75 40.75 0 0 0 -40.74 JJ Bumrah 2016-2019 4 1 1 1.00 0 4 2/39 47.00 0 1 0 -45.99 R Ashwin 2014-2022 8 9 5 4.50 0 5 3/22 58.80 0 3 0 -54.29 RA Jadeja 2014-2019 8 131 77 43.66 0 4 2/42 78.50 0 5 0 -34.83 HH Pandya 2016-2022 5 171 76 57.00 0 2 1/53 109.50 0 0 0 -52.49 Minus the WT20 - View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2014 Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut) or World Cup Tournament type 5+ team tournaments Match type tournament finals or tournament cons. finals or tournament semi-finals or tournament quarter-finals Qualifications innings bowled in greater than or equal to 2 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 9 of 9 First Previous Next Last http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff UT Yadav 2015-2015 2 0 0 0.00 0 8 4/31 12.87 0 0 0 -12.87 KM Jadhav 2017-2017 2 9 9 9.00 0 3 2/22 16.33 0 1 0 -7.33 B Kumar 2017-2019 3 1 1* 1.00 0 6 3/43 23.33 0 0 0 -22.33 MM Sharma 2015-2015 2 0 0 0.00 0 3 2/75 37.00 0 0 0 -36.99 JJ Bumrah 2017-2019 3 1 1 1.00 0 3 2/39 48.66 0 1 0 -47.66 Mohammed Shami 2015-2015 2 1 1* - 0 2 2/37 52.50 0 2 0 - RA Jadeja 2015-2019 5 131 77 43.66 0 4 2/42 61.75 0 4 0 -18.08 HH Pandya 2017-2019 3 108 76 54.00 0 2 1/53 71.00 0 0 0 -16.99 R Ashwin 2015-2017 4 9 5 4.50 0 1 1/42 196.00 0 2 0 -191.49 Link to comment
Lord Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 12 minutes ago, R!TTER said: Even taking that into account his record is generally poor, after CT 2013 he flopped in 2015 KO games especially vs Oz, then CT 2017 vs Pak though did well vs NZ in 2019 - he's not that much consistent in LO & his record depends a lot on the type of pitches served. Kuldeep will take pitches out of the equation. Obviously finger spinners tend to depend on pitch more than wristies.Though SF 2019 was not friendly.Even CT 2013 wasn't that spin friendly. If there is no dew, I think he'll be fine bowling wise in WC. Link to comment
R!TTER Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 (edited) The point is his LO bowling has gone down in this period, although he's become much better in tests. Same goes for Ashwin to an even larger extent. This is the trend which you also see worldwide & probably why Kuldeep could do better than both, the test mentality is almost 180 these days compared to LO & so are the spin bowler's returns. Edited September 19, 2023 by R!TTER Link to comment
putrevus Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 England very lucky to win in 2019.They lost 3 matches and yet won the cup. Samething happened in 2022 t20 world cup.Winning toss was the most important thing for them.It just shows to win world cup you need some luck and England had their share in last two trophy wins. There is no need for India to ape England in anything.England's firepower will be severely tested on wickets with some help for bowlers. Form is funny thing too. Link to comment
putrevus Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 18 minutes ago, R!TTER said: It's even worse than I thought - View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2014 Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut) or ICC Men's T20 World Cup or World Cup Tournament type 5+ team tournaments Match type tournament finals or tournament cons. finals or tournament semi-finals or tournament quarter-finals Qualifications innings bowled in greater than or equal to 4 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 6 of 6 First Previous Next Last http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff B Kumar 2014-2022 6 1 1* 1.00 0 7 3/43 30.85 0 0 0 -29.85 MM Sharma 2014-2015 4 0 0 0.00 0 4 2/75 40.75 0 0 0 -40.74 JJ Bumrah 2016-2019 4 1 1 1.00 0 4 2/39 47.00 0 1 0 -45.99 R Ashwin 2014-2022 8 9 5 4.50 0 5 3/22 58.80 0 3 0 -54.29 RA Jadeja 2014-2019 8 131 77 43.66 0 4 2/42 78.50 0 5 0 -34.83 HH Pandya 2016-2022 5 171 76 57.00 0 2 1/53 109.50 0 0 0 -52.49 Minus the WT20 - View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2014 Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut) or World Cup Tournament type 5+ team tournaments Match type tournament finals or tournament cons. finals or tournament semi-finals or tournament quarter-finals Qualifications innings bowled in greater than or equal to 2 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 9 of 9 First Previous Next Last http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff UT Yadav 2015-2015 2 0 0 0.00 0 8 4/31 12.87 0 0 0 -12.87 KM Jadhav 2017-2017 2 9 9 9.00 0 3 2/22 16.33 0 1 0 -7.33 B Kumar 2017-2019 3 1 1* 1.00 0 6 3/43 23.33 0 0 0 -22.33 MM Sharma 2015-2015 2 0 0 0.00 0 3 2/75 37.00 0 0 0 -36.99 JJ Bumrah 2017-2019 3 1 1 1.00 0 3 2/39 48.66 0 1 0 -47.66 Mohammed Shami 2015-2015 2 1 1* - 0 2 2/37 52.50 0 2 0 - RA Jadeja 2015-2019 5 131 77 43.66 0 4 2/42 61.75 0 4 0 -18.08 HH Pandya 2017-2019 3 108 76 54.00 0 2 1/53 71.00 0 0 0 -16.99 R Ashwin 2015-2017 4 9 5 4.50 0 1 1/42 196.00 0 2 0 -191.49 So Bumrah whose avg is 48 and Pandya whose average is 71 are fine?? Fast bowlers who were supposed to be leading India in knock in 2019 semis .Bhuvi got cheap wickets at end could not do anything with new ball and Bumrah after his inital wicket could not take any wicket. Lord 1 Link to comment
Lord Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 12 minutes ago, R!TTER said: The point is his LO bowling has gone down in this period, although he's become much better in tests. Same goes for Ashwin to an even larger extent. This is the trend which you also see worldwide & probably why Kuldeep could do better than both, the test mentality is almost 180 these days compared to LO & so are the spin bowler's returns. Yes Ideally a leg spinning AR is the one we need. But we don't have any so have to make do with our resources. . No one's doubting Kuldeep is our best spinner. Link to comment
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