Winning the middle overs bowling phase in ODI's - where India lacks!

[Nikhil_cric]

It's been a big bone of contention and many insist on their Washi's/Jadeja's/Ashwin's and Axar's.  

 

But I firmly believe playing a specialist finger spinner is the reason why India lets opposition batsmen get away to big scores. The catching too but that's the more obvious concern.

 

There's a tendency among Indian commentators to focus on PP and death overs but forget that the 30 overs in the middle is bigger than both those phases combined.

 

Also, there is continuous praise for certain cricketers  without even bothering to look at the their numbers in certain phases - speaking of Ashwin and Jadeja in particuar.

 

Now, we have to keep in mind that minnow sides usually crack under the pressure created by bigger opposition and they also play a lot more on dodgy surfaces - BD, SL and AFG in particular.

 

Also, we have to rememeber that 4 outfielders in middle overs started in June 2015 approx.

 

 

So, let's look at which of our bowlers has offered wicket-taking threat in the middle overs especially considering we are looking to bowl oppositions out with a bowling heavy balance and looking to play extra bowlers.

 

Indian bowlers' wickets and strike rates against England/NZ/SA/PAk/Australia since 01 June, 2005 in ODI's

 

http://www.cricmetric.com/playermatrix.py?start=2015-06-01&end=2023-09-23&format=ODI&category=Men&x=bowling_sr&y=bowling_wickets&minballs=0&pmatrixFilters=on&playerteam=India&oppteam=Australia&oppteam=South+Africa&oppteam=England&oppteam=New+Zealand&oppteam=Pakistan&start_over=11&end_over=40

 

 

That list is illuminating. All of the wicket-taking bowlers in the middle overs for over 8 years have been seamers and wrist spinners(Kuldeep, Chahal, Mishra). 

 

The seamers, including the much reviled Bhuvaneshwar and Umesh Yadav, have strike rates less than 45 .  The sole exception is actually Bumrah with a strike rate of 66 in the middle overs.

 

On the other hand, all the spin-allrounders in contention -  Axar, Jadeja, Ashwin all have strike rates north of 62. Ashwin's is close to 80. In fact, te best finger spinner has actually been Kedar Jadhav (45  odd) and he wasn't even a bowler first!

 

So we know what works in terms of winning the middle overs - pace and wrist spin. 

 

If the whole team is set up to blast teams out for sub-par scores, what is the point of constantly having a finger spin allrounder who neither increases batting depth nor wins the match for you in the middle overs? Is there a need for such a support bowler?  Also why have 2 in the squad when playing even 1 should solely be based on whetehr the pitch is taking etra turn or not?

 

Isn't it the obvious choice to bolster the pace bowling reserves by picking Prasidh Krishna and bolster the batting by picking the extra batter?  

 

Discuss.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Nikhil_cric

[putrevus]

Where did Prasidh Krishna show that he can be effective in middle overs. With bat he is number 11 or worse, how do you account for it.

 

Finger spinners might not have had success in 10-40 phase but it is not as simple as you are making it out be , how effective fast bowlers are with new ball plays a vital role in how the finger spinners bowl during middle overs.

 

India fast bowlers rarely take wickets with new ball with Bhuvi who was a constant in white ball cricket being major culprit.

 

 

India kicked out both Ashwin and Jadeja out of the team after CT 2017 but lack of batting from bowlers has dragged both of them back into the team.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by putrevus

[Nikhil_cric]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Where did Prasidh Krishna show that he can be effective in middle overs. With bat he is number 11 or worse, how do you account for it.

 

Finger spinners might not have had success in 10-40 phase but it is not as simple as you are making it out be , how effective fast bowlers are with new ball plays a vital role in how the finger spinners bowl during middle overs.

 

India fast bowlers rarely take wickets with new ball with Bhuvi who was a constant in white ball cricket being major culprit.

 

 

India kicked out both Ashwin and Jadeja out of the team after CT 2017 but lack of batting from bowlers has dragged both of them back into the team.

So no wickets with the new ball affects only finger spinners in the middle overs but has no effect on wrist spinners and pacers?

 

Prasidh Krishna as an option to rotate pacers and not play the Shami/Siraj/Bumrah trio at all times. 

 

The larger point is that pace and wrist spin gets wickets not finger spin.

 

Werent you the one advocating the need to take wickets because India can't chase ?

 

But you still want to defend bowlers who can't take wickets in the middle?

 

Prasidh Krishna's strike rates suggest that he can take wickets in the middle overs though the sample size is limited. You can only prove or disprove that notion if he gets to play in the team in the first place. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Nikhil_cric

[Lone Wolf]

I think PP bowling was genuine concern...  The moment Siraj was introduced our fortunes reversed. 

Bumrah Boobie duo was a massive failure in PP.   Shami was most incisive when he used to bowl in 140's consistently but Boobie's mythical malnourished batting was preferred which costed us 2019 WC semi final. 

We didn't learn & went on to lose WT20 in group stage. 

 

Chahal being preferred over Kuldeep & return of Jadeja post 2018 Asia Cup made situation dire. 

We used to allow huge run chases with our toothless bowling.  Including record run chases like Mohali Hamilton. 

 

I will always maintain Fraudeja is the single  most important reason that our side is always unbalanced.  He offers nothing special...  Especially when PANDYA plays he is not needed at all. 

[Lord]

Ideal option is a leg spin AR. We all mock Afridi Sr. but such player is exactly what we lack here.

 

But we don't have it and need to maximise what we have. One way is have batting till 7 and then play 4 genuine wicket taking bowlers. Old school but suits our resources.

[vvvslaxman]

31 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

I think PP bowling was genuine concern...  The moment Siraj was introduced our fortunes reversed. 

Bumrah Boobie duo was a massive failure in PP.   Shami was most incisive when he used to bowl in 140's consistently but Boobie's mythical malnourished batting was preferred which costed us 2019 WC semi final. 

We didn't learn & went on to lose WT20 in group stage. 

 

Chahal being preferred over Kuldeep & return of Jadeja post 2018 Asia Cup made situation dire. 

We used to allow huge run chases with our toothless bowling.  Including record run chases like Mohali Hamilton. 

 

I will always maintain Fraudeja is the single  most important reason that our side is always unbalanced.  He offers nothing special...  Especially when PANDYA plays he is not needed at all. 

 

If the ball doesn't swing most of these guys are impotent. That is one area Prasidh has an X factor. He can generate bounce of a good length. Pandya does it. But he really has to bang it in.  Arshdeep/Chahar are the other two swing options. Thakur can swing the ball. He did that even in Australia both ways. But problem is he suddenly resorts to this crap short ball tactic.

[singhvivek141]

I didn't look at the stats, but I think I said earlier that our success in this WC will depend a lot on Kuldeep Yadav.

If any team is able to neutralize him, there are higher chances that we might struggle that day. Coz he is the one whose performance will dictate Jadeja and Shardul/Ashwin to have an impact.

 

Kuldeep's form will decide if an opposition is able to recover from 50/3 (10) either to 240/5 (40) or to 180/9 (40).

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

So no wickets with the new ball affects only finger spinners in the middle overs but has no effect on wrist spinners and pacers?

 

Prasidh Krishna as an option to rotate pacers and not play the Shami/Siraj/Bumrah trio at all times. 

 

The larger point is that pace and wrist spin gets wickets not finger spin.

 

Werent you the one advocating the need to take wickets because India can't chase ?

 

But you still want to defend bowlers who can't take wickets in the middle?

 

Prasidh Krishna's strike rates suggest that he can take wickets in the middle overs though the sample size is limited. You can only prove or disprove that notion if he gets to play in the team in the first place. 

Key word is Pace: Prasidh does not have that pace to blow away opposition . Shami or Siraj don't have that pace also .They have to take wickets upfront in first ten overs or it will be long day for them on the field.

 

 

Only Bumrah has the ability to get wicket at any stage of the game.Pandya also depends on how well the new ball bowlers bowl.

 

Even first grader knows if you have wrist spinner they will be more of threat in between 10-40.Do we have any such wrist spinners??

 

If we had another Bumrah like bowler along with another Kuldeep who could bat then we could implement your plan.

 

Do you want Chahal in the team?

 

 

Yes, I want India to take wickets for that to happen I want Bumrah, Siraj or Shami which ever two who are playing to take wickets upfront.

 

Ideally you want to play Bumrah, Shami and Siraj with Pandya as fast bowlers with spinner Kuldeep.

For that to happen you need Pandya to play at number 7. 

 

India does not have number 6.That is why I was hoping Tilak could make the squad.

 

SKY and Tilak will play depending on the pitch and opposition.

 

Dravid's insistance on making Rahul as a keeper and Rohit wanting open has thrown that plan out of the window.

 

Some of ICFers think Sundar is good enough at number 6? I don't think he is good enough there.

Edited September 23, 2023 by putrevus

[Nikhil_cric]

33 minutes ago, Lord said:

Ideal option is a leg spin AR. We all mock Afridi Sr. but such player is exactly what we lack here.

 

But we don't have it and need to maximise what we have. One way is have batting till 7 and then play 4 genuine wicket taking bowlers. Old school but suits our resources.

Leg spin all-rounder is good if you don't already have  wrist spinner. Also, two spinners are always risky on flat tracks as Kulcha showed in the World Cup.

 

On the other hand, a decent pacer will always work in the middle. If you look at the stats, even guys like Umesh and Bhuvaneshwar were much better wicket taking threats through the middle but we never gave them enough chances to bowl there because we were obsessed with bowling only spin through middle overs. 

 

New ball and death bowing ws the only option for our seamers. I think we missed out quite a bit.

[putrevus]

12 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

I didn't look at the stats, but I think I said earlier that our success in this WC will depend a lot on Kuldeep Yadav.

If any team is able to neutralize him, there are higher chances that we might struggle that day. Coz he is the one whose performance will dictate Jadeja and Shardul/Ashwin to have an impact.

 

Kuldeep's form will decide if an opposition is able to recover from 50/3 (10) either to 240/5 (40) or to 180/9 (40).

That is because neither Shami ,Siraj or Pandya are good enough during those middle phases to get wicket on demand.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/new-zealand-in-india-2022-23-1348633/india-vs-new-zealand-1st-odi-1348646/full-scorecard

 

Bracewell and Santner almost won the match for NZ chasing chasing 350. NZ were 6 for 131.

 

Pandya, Sundar and Thakur all were helpless. Dew might have played a role in that match, I don't remember the specifics but even in world cup dew might still play a role.

 

Neither Ashwin nor Jadeja played in that match.Ashwin might have helped as he is better offspinner? I don't remember. why Kuldeep did not finish his overs .

 

Kuldeep and Bumrah to me are the key if India have to win the world cup. Others will ride on their back and do their bit.

[Nikhil_cric]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Key word is Pace: Prasidh does not have that pace to blow away opposition . Shami or Siraj don't have that pace also .They have to take wickets upfront in first ten overs or it will be long day for them on the field.

 

 

Only Bumrah has the ability to get wicket at any stage of the game.Pandya also depends on how well the new ball bowlers bowl.

 

Even first grader knows if you have wrist spinner they will be more of threat in between 10-40.Do we have any such wrist spinners??

 

If we had another Bumrah like bowler along with another Kuldeep who could bat then we could implement your plan.

 

Do you want Chahal in the team?

 

 

Yes, I want India to take wickets for that to happen I want Bumrah, Siraj or Shami which ever two who are playing to take wickets upfront.

 

Ideally you want to play Bumrah, Shami and Siraj with Pandya as fast bowlers with spinner Kuldeep.

For that to happen you need Pandya to play at number 7. 

 

India does not have number 6.That is why I was hoping Tilak could make the squad.

 

SKY and Tilak will play depending on the pitch and opposition.

 

Dravid's insistance on making Rahul as a keeper and Rohit wanting open has thrown that plan out of the window.

 

Some of ICFers think Sundar is good enough at number 6? I don't think he is good enough there.

What pace?  Shami does not have extreme pace. Shardul even less but they have the best strike rates in the middle overs for us. Much better than even Kuldeep. 

 

Shami has a strike of 24 and Shardul around 26 in the middle overs but Jadeja has 66 . 

 

Who said you need 150 + pace in the middle overs. Even Lockie only strikes at 44 odd I think. 

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

That is because neither Shami ,Siraj or Pandya are good enough during those middle phases to get wicket on demand.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/new-zealand-in-india-2022-23-1348633/india-vs-new-zealand-1st-odi-1348646/full-scorecard

 

Bracewell and Santner almost won the match for NZ chasing chasing 350. NZ were 6 for 131.

 

Pandya, Sundar and Thakur all were helpless. Dew might have played a role in that match, I don't remember the specifics but even in world cup dew might still play a role.

 

Neither Ashwin nor Jadeja played in that match.Ashwin might have helped as he is better offspinner? I don't remember. why Kuldeep did not finish his overs .

 

Kuldeep and Bumrah to me are the key if India have to win the world cup. Others will ride on their back and do their bit.

Finn Allen, Glenn Phillips and Tom Latham were all removed in the middle overs by Thakur, Shami and Siraj. 

 

Sundar didn't take a single wicket. 

 

After 30 overs , heavy dew set in. 

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

What pace?  Shami does not have extreme pace. Shardul even less but they have the best strike rates in the middle overs for us. Much better than even Kuldeep. 

 

Shami has a strike of 24 and Shardul around 26 in the middle overs but Jadeja has 66 . 

 

Who said you need 150 + pace in the middle overs. Even Lockie only strikes at 44 odd I think. 

 

 

Shami has SR of 24 since he gets wickets upfront. Thakur has good SR but his economy rate is over 6.2. 

 

Thakur, Shami, Siraj are not going to stop any set batsmen from scoring. There is a reason why Shami stinks in death overs.

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Finn Allen, Glenn Phillips and Tom Latham were all removed in the middle overs by Thakur, Shami and Siraj. 

 

Sundar didn't take a single wicket. 

 

After 30 overs , heavy dew set in. 

So dew won't be there in world cup???

[Nikhil_cric]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Shami has SR of 24 since he gets wickets upfront. Thakur has good SR but his economy rate is over 6.2. 

 

Thakur, Shami, Siraj are not going to stop any set batsmen from scoring. There is a reason why Shami stinks in death overs.

I'm talking about their middle overs(11-40) strike rate and comparing it with that of finger spinners. 

[Nikhil_cric]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

So dew won't be there in world cup???

Washington got hit a lot in that match. 

And what are you even saying? Dew affects finger spinners more than pacers. 

 

The only reason we won that match was because the seamers and Kuldeep had already taken 6 wickets between them before Washi even bowled in that match.

 

 

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I'm talking about their middle overs(11-40) strike rate and comparing it with that of finger spinners. 

I am also talking about the same overs. You cannot get what you don't have  in wrist spinners and fast bowlers to finish those 30 overs.

[Nikhil_cric]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

I am also talking about the same overs. You cannot get what you don't have  in wrist spinners and fast bowlers to finish those 30 overs.

You mean finger spinners with strike rates above 60 in the middle overs are better options than seamers who who all strike at less than 40?

 

Ok

[Lord]

35 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Leg spin all-rounder is good if you don't already have  wrist spinner. Also, two spinners are always risky on flat tracks as Kulcha showed in the World Cup.

 

On the other hand, a decent pacer will always work in the middle. If you look at the stats, even guys like Umesh and Bhuvaneshwar were much better wicket taking threats through the middle but we never gave them enough chances to bowl there because we were obsessed with bowling only spin through middle overs. 

 

New ball and death bowing ws the only option for our seamers. I think we missed out quite a bit.

That weakens our batting though. 

 

Pandya is the designated middle over pacer we have alongwith Shami/Thakur. Not sure why we need more.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Washington got hit a lot in that match. 

And what are you even saying? Dew affects finger spinners more than pacers. 

 

The only reason we won that match was because the seamers and Kuldeep had already taken 6 wickets between them before Washi even bowled in that match.

 

 

You keep talking as if India has surplus of wrist spinners but they are not selected.

 

If India has to win matches, fast bowlers and Kuldeep ticket upfront. 10-30s overs is where Kuldeep will mostly bowl his first spell .

 

Since we will have Bumrah , I am hoping he will help India break those building partnerships at any stage of the game.