India’s biggest mess up?

[Nikhil_cric]

14 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

We are repeating the same mistake with SKY, which we did with Deepak Hooda.

SKY is a top4 (at max 5) batter, so does Hooda. We tried to use them as our no 6/7 in ODI WC/T20 WC...both failed in their respective roles.

 

Considering Hardik's iffy fitness, it's time now to select a proper no6 & no 7 batter for ODI & T20. Rinku Singh, Abhinav Manohar, Jitesh Sharma, Raj Bawa type batters who have played all their life at lower middle order and knows how to rotate strike with the tail. 

That spot in ODIs has to go to Riyan Parag .   He is the only one who is explosive enough and can bowl Glenn Maxwell level off spin 

[Majestic]

India will play Axar Patel at 7 in 2027 World Cup. Mark my words. They just don't learn, they want to just follow the principle which resulted in failure.

[Vijy]

On 11/23/2023 at 7:33 AM, Nikhil_cric said:

That spot in ODIs has to go to Riyan Parag .   He is the only one who is explosive enough and can bowl Glenn Maxwell level off spin 

he can bowl better than max in ODIs, going by List A exposure.

[tweaker]

On 11/23/2023 at 9:52 PM, Majestic said:

India will play Axar Patel at 7 in 2027 World Cup. Mark my words. They just don't learn, they want to just follow the principle which resulted in failure.

Riyan Parag should have been in the squad for the Australia T20 series.

Jadeja and Patel are always selected for the no 7 batsman spinner role,The selectors should have considered Parag after his recent performances in domestic tournaments 

[nitinbwj]

Kisi ko bhi khila lo instead of these Prasidh's, Arsedeep's, Axar's, Avesh. 

[Majestic]

11 hours ago, tweaker said:

Riyan Parag should have been in the squad for the Australia T20 series.

Jadeja and Patel are always selected for the no 7 batsman spinner role,The selectors should have considered Parag after his recent performances in domestic tournaments 

 

13 hours ago, Vijy said:

he can bowl better than max in ODIs, going by List A exposure.

Indian TM has this habit of thinking Pandya as 6th bowler when he is very much capable of being used as 5th bowler and bat at 5 or 6 especially in T20s. They think of him as a batting A/R but in T20s, he is basically equal with bat and bowl both. Hence, they need to maximise the bowling efforts from Pandya in the upcoming WT20. 

[Muloghonto]

India's achilees heel - and its been there for some time now- is having one or two genuine ODI batsmen who can play the role of the 5th bowler. We had that in Tendy, in Ganguly, in Yuvraj. But since Yuvraj retired, we've not had a single one who could score 70-80 runs and have figures like 10-0-50-1. Which means, we effectively put out a test lineup of 5 batters + 1 keeper + 5 bowlers. Which means, if the top order fails or doesn't get going, its tuk tuk batting in a must win match, like the finals. 

Aussies dont have the same quality of batsmen or bowlers for ODIs as India does, but what Aussies have, are this class of batters who can bowl down 5-7 overs each in the team, thus giving them more batting depth. 

 

[IndianRenegade]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

India's achilees heel - and its been there for some time now- is having one or two genuine ODI batsmen who can play the role of the 5th bowler. We had that in Tendy, in Ganguly, in Yuvraj. But since Yuvraj retired, we've not had a single one who could score 70-80 runs and have figures like 10-0-50-1. Which means, we effectively put out a test lineup of 5 batters + 1 keeper + 5 bowlers. Which means, if the top order fails or doesn't get going, its tuk tuk batting in a must win match, like the finals. 

Aussies dont have the same quality of batsmen or bowlers for ODIs as India does, but what Aussies have, are this class of batters who can bowl down 5-7 overs each in the team, thus giving them more batting depth. 

 

Correct. But what has Indian done to solve it? Not even in a nothing series like the Ind - Aus T20 series are they trying out Tilak & Jaiswal.

 

It looks like by hook or crook they want gujju quota picks  Axar & Jaddu. Because the only thing that makes them relevant is that they can bowl.

[Muloghonto]

36 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

Correct. But what has Indian done to solve it? Not even in a nothing series like the Ind - Aus T20 series are they trying out Tilak & Jaiswal.

 

It looks like by hook or crook they want gujju quota picks  Axar & Jaddu. Because the only thing that makes them relevant is that they can bowl.

Well jaddu is also a monster fielder, so he is worth his spot imo. Axar is just jaddu from wish.com 

 

[Trichromatic]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

India's achilees heel - and its been there for some time now- is having one or two genuine ODI batsmen who can play the role of the 5th bowler. We had that in Tendy, in Ganguly, in Yuvraj. But since Yuvraj retired, we've not had a single one who could score 70-80 runs and have figures like 10-0-50-1. Which means, we effectively put out a test lineup of 5 batters + 1 keeper + 5 bowlers. Which means, if the top order fails or doesn't get going, its tuk tuk batting in a must win match, like the finals. 

Aussies dont have the same quality of batsmen or bowlers for ODIs as India does, but what Aussies have, are this class of batters who can bowl down 5-7 overs each in the team, thus giving them more batting depth. 

 

 

In this case India went with 4 batters, 1 keeper, 5 bowlers and 1 pontential ODI batter whom they hoped to perform.

[Chaos]

4 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

In this case India went with 4 batters, 1 keeper, 5 bowlers and 1 pontential ODI batter whom they hoped to perform.

its more like two attacking openers, three stabilizers (kohli,iyer,rahul), non existent odi player in sky and boom rest of the batsman can look like 1 0 0 1 0. Pathetic.

[TellTheTruth]

I think in 2011 people don't remember how lucky India where with the 5th bowling option. Pre 2010 the fifth bowler was a massive headache for india. they tried splittling up the 10 overs between sehwag tendulkar, yuvi ect and it prevented india from winning games consistently. they tried to solve it with pathan but it made the batting depth suffer, it was so bad that even  Ramesh Powar played some games in the top 7 to try and solve the 5th bowler problem. It wasn't until 2009-2010 that yuvi became a dependable bowler capable of consistently bowling 10 overs, which allowed  india to pick an extra batsman in raina who helped win 2 knockout games. But if India had a half decent all rounder pre 2008 Yuvis bowling would have never developed and india would have not picked either raina or yuvi and india probably would not have won the world cup. Their was no real tactical genius behind it, Indias disadvantage of producing all rounders ended up benefiting them. It was freakish good luck.

 

On the other hand Pandya has been a disappointment so far as an allrounder. He cant bowl in the opening overs, can't bowl at the death and cant even be trusted to bowl his full quota of overs regularly Forcing india to waste another spot on an all rounder. His batting is decent in white ball cricket but not good enough alone to keep players like rinku or jaiswal out of the squad. theirs a good chance india in the upcoming t20 world cup will play Pandya and Jadeja/axar in the top 7 while Rinku and jaiswal might sit out. this shows how the 5th bowler spot is such a massive nagging issue for india historically thats never been solved.

[Muloghonto]

47 minutes ago, TellTheTruth said:

I think in 2011 people don't remember how lucky India where with the 5th bowling option. Pre 2010 the fifth bowler was a massive headache for india. they tried splittling up the 10 overs between sehwag tendulkar, yuvi ect and it prevented india from winning games consistently. they tried to solve it with pathan but it made the batting depth suffer, it was so bad that even  Ramesh Powar played some games in the top 7 to try and solve the 5th bowler problem. It wasn't until 2009-2010 that yuvi became a dependable bowler capable of consistently bowling 10 overs, which allowed  india to pick an extra batsman in raina who helped win 2 knockout games. But if India had a half decent all rounder pre 2008 Yuvis bowling would have never developed and india would have not picked either raina or yuvi and india probably would not have won the world cup. Their was no real tactical genius behind it, Indias disadvantage of producing all rounders ended up benefiting them. It was freakish good luck.

 

On the other hand Pandya has been a disappointment so far as an allrounder. He cant bowl in the opening overs, can't bowl at the death and cant even be trusted to bowl his full quota of overs regularly Forcing india to waste another spot on an all rounder. His batting is decent in white ball cricket but not good enough alone to keep players like rinku or jaiswal out of the squad. theirs a good chance india in the upcoming t20 world cup will play Pandya and Jadeja/axar in the top 7 while Rinku and jaiswal might sit out. this shows how the 5th bowler spot is such a massive nagging issue for india historically thats never been solved.

 

I think Yuvy would've made it anyways into the team, because Yuvi was good enough to be in the team on the basis of his batting alone and he was a very very good fielder, with excellent catching inside the circle. 

Pandya is not an allrounder really. He is this day and age's Roger Binny/Robin Singh - good for 20 runs and can sneak in 4-5 overs/bowl his quota without too much trouble if the other bowlers have already reduced the side to 50/5. 

Pandya is what you'd call an allrounder in the T20 format, where bowling 4 ok overs at slightly worse than 6 economy and bashing 20-25 runs in 10 balls is a valuable contribution.

 

ODI is the toughest format for team composition - its very unforgiving if you cannot find at least two bona fide batsmen who can throw down 4-5 overs regularly without costing an arm and a leg. This has been the pattern for ODI teams since the mid 90s. Notice that Sri Lanka beat Australia in 96 with the exact same composition issues ( where Aus only had Mark Waugh as 5th bowler- stevie stopped bowling by then- and SL had DeSilva & Jayasurya, India had Yuvraj-Sehwag-Tendulkar-Gangubai to fill the gaps, this Oz team has 3 part time bowlers, etc etc.

 

India doesn't need a Kapil Dev or a Jacques Kallis to win world cups, India needs to prioritise having top level ODI batsmen who can do the job of a decent 5th bowler. 

And IMO, India lacks this option, because Indians dont play enough first class cricket for their top players. Its in FC games where you usually have the need for at least SOME batsmen to step up and roll their arms over for a few overs and get the nous & confidence to become the 5th bowler.