How overrated are the two W's

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Objectively if we look, than a Babar Azam and an Imam Ul Haq averages much higher than Yousuf Yohanna or Inzamam or Saeed Anwar...will you consider the former better than the latter ?

 

I already considered that Akram lost a lot of his form and fitness due to diabetes..but with current bat size, flatter grounds, smaller boundaries, balanced balls, cameras across the stadium it isn't as easy for the bowlers as it sounds. Also, Boult averages 27 and 25 in Tests & ODI's respectively...I kept Wasim in 23-25 territory which is almost similar to what he averages currently.

 

For Waqar, he lost his pace at the age of 25 (on paper) itself...bowlers like Cummins, Bumrah recovered themselves even from multiple stress fractures and still remain competitive.

 

Lillee didn't toured India and had performed poorly in Pakistan, considering that he can't be considered equivalent to Steyn, Ambrose, Marshall.

Babar Azam overall sure is better than Youhana any day. Yohanna is one season wonder.People tend to forget Pakistan did not get to play on home pitches for a long time.

 

Javed, Zaheer, Inzi and you can put Azam, Younis, or Youhana in the same category.

 

Saeed Anwar is very overrated. who is Imam? he is nobody.

 

Akram is better than Steyn or Marshal overall with whiteball.. Marshall is one of the best test bowlers. Steyn got to play in SA with great bowling conditions. I would take Akram over Steyn anyday in any format.

 

Ambrose, Mcgrath, Akram would be my top three bowlers including whiteball.Akram would still be first name on the team in any format as he is left hand bowler.

 

Joel Garner would be my other selection in all time playing XI in any format.He would bowl uphill all day and will hold one end up.

 

 

[sensible-indian]

47 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Objectively if we look, than a Babar Azam and an Imam Ul Haq averages much higher than Yousuf Yohanna or Inzamam or Saeed Anwar...will you consider the former better than the latter ?

 

I already considered that Akram lost a lot of his form and fitness due to diabetes..but with current bat size, flatter grounds, smaller boundaries, balanced balls, cameras across the stadium it isn't as easy for the bowlers as it sounds. Also, Boult averages 27 and 25 in Tests & ODI's respectively...I kept Wasim in 23-25 territory which is almost similar to what he averages currently.

 

For Waqar, he lost his pace at the age of 25 (on paper) itself...bowlers like Cummins, Bumrah recovered themselves even from multiple stress fractures and still remain competitive.

 

Lillee didn't toured India and had performed poorly in Pakistan, considering that he can't be considered equivalent to Steyn, Ambrose, Marshall.

3 matches on some horrible patta.

[Adamant]

37 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Babar Azam overall sure is better than Youhana any day. Yohanna is one season wonder.People tend to forget Pakistan did not get to play on home pitches for a long time.

 

Javed, Zaheer, Inzi and you can put Azam, Younis, or Youhana in the same category.

 

Saeed Anwar is very overrated. who is Imam? he is nobody.

 

Akram is better than Steyn or Marshal overall with whiteball.. Marshall is one of the best test bowlers. Steyn got to play in SA with great bowling conditions. I would take Akram over Steyn anyday in any format.

 

Ambrose, Mcgrath, Akram would be my top three bowlers including whiteball.Akram would still be first name on the team in any format as he is left hand bowler.

 

Joel Garner would be my other selection in all time playing XI in any format.He would bowl uphill all day and will hold one end up.

 

 

One season wonder can’t average 50+ .

 

 

We all need to treat great players like them with a bit of respect.

 

First Wasim, Waqar now Yousuf.

 

Yousuf is easily amongst the top 50 batsman of all time and that is a big achievement.

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, Adamant said:

One season wonder can’t average 50+ .

 

 

We all need to treat great players like them with a bit of respect.

 

First Wasim, Waqar now Yousuf.

 

Yousuf is easily amongst the top 50 batsman of all time and that is a big achievement.

No he is not, I always respect talent but he is not better than Babar.

[Gollum]

46 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Babar Azam overall sure is better than Youhana any day. Yohanna is one season wonder.People tend to forget Pakistan did not get to play on home pitches for a long time.

Yohana had a boxing day 100 against McWarne, spicy MCG track. Dominated Eng in Eng, won his side an Asia Cup. Scored big against arch rivals India. What has Babar done in comparison? Just a soft runs specialist atm. 

46 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Javed, Zaheer, Inzi and you can put Azam, Younis, or Youhana in the same category.

No you can't. 

46 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Saeed Anwar is very overrated. who is Imam? he is nobody.

Anwar was rated correctly, great in ODIs, good in tests. 

46 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Akram is better than Steyn or Marshal overall with whiteball.. Marshall is one of the best test bowlers. Steyn got to play in SA with great bowling conditions. I would take Akram over Steyn anyday in any format.

RSA during Steyn's time didn't have doctored wickets like they have these days. Steyn also proved his worth on flat Aussies tracks of 2010s, in SC, won his side couple of tests in Ind. 

Edited February 5 by Gollum

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

If we are objective. ,Wasim would have eaten modern batsmen out for fun.Boult built himself a great career.Wasim is 1000 times better than Boult.

Wasim better no doubt but you are underselling Boult here. 300+ test wickets, one of the best white ball bowlers of modern era, raises his game in big games, ICC events etc, stellar WC record, good record against top batsmen of his era. WTC champion, x2 WC finalist, T20 WC finalist in UAE, has helped NZ punch above its weight. Modern great. 

[putrevus]

12 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Yohana had a boxing day 100 against McWarne, spicy MCG track. Dominated Eng in Eng, won his side an Asia Cup. Scored big against arch rivals India. What has Babar done in comparison? Just a soft runs specialist atm. 

No you can't. 

Anwar was rated correctly, great in ODIs, good in tests. 

RSA during Steyn's time didn't have doctored wickets like they have these days. Steyn also proved his worth on flat Aussies tracks of 2010s, in SC, won his side couple of tests in Ind. 

So scoring one 100 against Mcwarne makes him great. Kim Hughes scored one of the all time best 100 against full pace attack of WI on much more spicy MCG wicket where he scored 100 plus in a total of 197.Does it make Kim Hughes a great batsman.

 

I rate Babar more than Youhana. He made merry on flat home tracks which Babar did not get till recently.

 

No Anwar not great in odis either, he had some big 100s. Anwar is overrated in both formats.

 

Akram being better than Steyn does not mean Steyn is bad bowler. Akram to me is the first name in any format.

 

He is more skilled than either Mcgrath or Ambrose and he could bowl at high pace if needed could swing old and new ball.

Edited February 5 by putrevus

[RajBan]

Let's not get lost into fandom. Specially people who have started watching cricket post 2000 may not have right context on how great a bowler Wasim was. He was miles ahead of the 2nd best coming out of subcontinent that includes Imran. Along with that he was pretty handy with bat and he was one of the top all rounders ever to play Test cricket. 

 

I am not even getting into the quality of opposition, lack of aptitude in today's batsmen, lack of technical analysis that helps the bowlers to Target each batsmen seperately. Wasim was in a true league of his own even when considering the age of ball tampering.

 

Waqar not that much. His run ended as soon as ball tampering came under scrutineer. He had a great Yorker and express pace early on but so did Akhter whom I rate ahead of Waqar.

 

Bumrah is great though in his own right but his longevity will determine whether he can atleast qualify for comparisons with Wasim , leave alone he being better.

[Gollum]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

So scoring one 100 against Mcwarne makes him great. Kim Hughes scored one of the all time best 100 against full pace attack of WI on much more spicy MCG wicket where he score 100 plus in a total of 197.Does it make Kim Hughes a great batsman.

 

I rate Babar more than Youhana. He made merry on flat home tracks which Babar did not get till recently.

List Babar's achievements till date. And no, 100s against Nepal, Uganda, Fiji, NZ D, Aus E, Eng F don't count. Then we can discuss. 

[Gollum]

Waqar was the greatest beneficiary of ball tampering. Just like how Ajmal was the greatest beneficiary of ICC's political correctness over chucking......even Murali, Bhajji weren't as blatant as Ajmal and Hafeez. 

Edited February 5 by Gollum

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

List Babar's achievements till date. And no, 100s against Nepal, Uganda, Fiji, NZ D, Aus E, Eng F don't count. Then we can discuss. 

I don't need to list anything. I have seen both, Babar is far better than Youhana.scoring in one odd innings does not make him better IMO.

Edited February 5 by putrevus

[Gollum]

Waqar was also a mental midget, as his WC record indicates. And his struggles against Aus, Ind.....sure he bullied weak Eng, NZ to submission in his prime but many of those games saw mysterious batting collapses with the old ball. 

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I don't need to list anything. I have seen both, Babar is far better than Youhana.scoring in one odd innings does not make him better IMO.

Saying Babar is better than Yohana is like saying Rahane is better than Gavaskar. Bolne mein kya jaata hai?

Edited February 5 by Gollum

[putrevus]

Just now, Gollum said:

Saying Babar is better than Yohana is like saying Rahane is better than Gavaskar. 

Just like Steve Smith became better odi player than Kohli for making 100 in semifinals .

 

Babar is higher class than Youhana.

[straighttalk]

5 hours ago, deathmonger said:

WCs mean nothing.

 

Sreesanth has a WC. Waqar hasn't.

 

Bumrah was magnificent this WC as well as the final. Indian batsmen crapped the final.

 

Iske baad kachra nahi rahega.

 

Bumrah, Pant etc are due to India's economic rise. Sports is directly linked to a country's economy.

We are **** in other sports and can win nothing in odi cricket in your high economic growth scenario . there are far poorer countries who  are winning soccer world cups.. so economy helps but doesnt make sporting culture.. it enhances and makes talent better

[Muloghonto]

My rating of subcontinental pace bowlers are : Wasim, Bumrah, <Daylight>, Imran, Kapil, Akhtar,Waqar. 

Waqar was always erratic and relied on great pace and magic balls to rescue his numbers. He had a tendency to bowl absolute garbage for a whole day, then produce 2-3 magic balls ( whether its ball tampering or broken clock being right at least twice a day thing- thats besides the point, i wish to discuss results only) to rescue his numbers. 
People who watched cricket in the 80s will remember another bowler who was the ultimate master of ' bowl trash all day, then bowl 3 good balls and get 3 wickets'  - Ian Botham. 

Once Waqar lost his pace, he was a very ordinary swing bowler. Wasim on the other hand, was far less lucky - with Pakistani butterfinger catchers and routinely beating the bat kinda bowler, who troubled the best of them due to his extremely quick arm action.

 

[sensible-indian]

Waqar's career can be split into 2 parts.

 

Pre injury 1995.

Post injury 1995.

 

Here are his numbers pre injury.

 

Tests

 

Matches - 33

Wickets  - 190

Average - 19.15

SR - 36

Wickets per game - 5.75

 

Average in England - 25

Average in NZ - 18

Average in WI - 20 (WI was solid at that time)

Average in SL - 16.5

Average in Pak - 16.9

 

ODIs

 

Matches - 101

Wickets  - 172

Average - 21.57

SR - 29

 

Tournament averages - 22.74

 

In 5+ team tournament, he played 2.

 

Austral Asia Cup - 17 wickets in 4 games at an average of 7 (no minnows he played against tho tourney had UAE).

Nehru Cup - 4 wickets in 5 games at an average of 39.

 

Tournament Finals

 

 

Average of 58 in 8 games.

 

Except in Austral Asia Cup which Pak won, he never performed in any finals.

 

Summary:

 

1. Prime Waqar was a fab bowler pre injury. Too bad he missed out on 1992 WC.

 

2. Even in his prime, he didn't perform in knockout tourneys and important games as much as he should have. So not wrong to call him a choker.

 

Interesting.

 

Another Pak player whose career can be split into 3 phases (horrible, great and horrible) is Mustaq Ahmed.

 

Edited February 5 by sensible-indian

[sensible-indian]

The sad part about ball tampering is that we would never know what a bowlers' numbers would be without it.

 

I think Prime Waqar would have still done well in modern tests (not in Pak pattas tho).

 

Wouldn't have averaged 19 for sure but I expect him to have done some serious damage with his pace and reverse (wherever it was available).

 

 

[putrevus]

Prime Waqar was a force 33 tests and 190 wickets . Is Bumrah not a choker in important matches.Steyn was not a choker?

 

Why is choking held against Waqar only.

 

Not everyone will win world cup or do well in important matches, it should not take away the greatness of any player.

[Muloghonto]

40 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Waqar's career can be split into 2 parts.

 

Pre injury 1995.

Post injury 1995.

 

Here are his numbers pre injury.

 

Tests

 

Matches - 33

Wickets  - 190

Average - 19.15

SR - 36

Wickets per game - 5.75

 

Average in England - 25

Average in NZ - 18

Average in WI - 20 (WI was solid at that time)

Average in SL - 16.5

Average in Pak - 16.9

 

ODIs

 

Matches - 101

Wickets  - 172

Average - 21.57

SR - 29

 

Tournament averages - 22.74

 

In 5+ team tournament, he played 2.

 

Austral Asia Cup - 17 wickets in 4 games at an average of 7 (no minnows he played against tho tourney had UAE).

Nehru Cup - 4 wickets in 5 games at an average of 39.

 

Tournament Finals

 

 

Average of 58 in 8 games.

 

Except in Austral Asia Cup which Pak won, he never performed in any finals.

 

Summary:

 

1. Prime Waqar was a fab bowler pre injury. Too bad he missed out on 1992 WC.

 

2. Even in his prime, he didn't perform in knockout tourneys and important games as much as he should have. So not wrong to call him a choker.

 

Interesting.

 

Another Pak player whose career can be split into 3 phases (horrible, great and horrible) is Mustaq Ahmed.

 

 

Put it this way- i do not believe that 'prime waqar' would have those numbers, if not for a 'prime wasim'  at the other end. He simply didnt have the control to go it alone in test cricket like bumrah or imran did. A prime waqar took a lot of wickets, but also got carted around a lot. he was never an economical bowler and that is why even in his prime waqar averaged 34 vs Australia and 25 vs England - not exactly great numbers. He also didnt face South Africa or India in his prime, who were the two strong batting lineups back then. 
West Indies batting in the 90s was very fragile, especially in the early 90s, before the emergence of Chanderpaul. Their opening was a declining but still good Haynes, their middle order was pretty much just Lara, with a much more diminished Richardson and perinneal under-achiever hooper as their best guys.