How overrated are the two W's

[deathmonger]

Now that Bumrah has a shout at being the best Asian fast bowler ever I compared with the two W's.

 

Their stats are a lot of minnow bashing.

 

Bumrah against SENA - strong teams of the era - 22.12

Bumrah against weak teams - SL/WI - 9.13 (and that too only 4 matches)

 

Never played Bang (19/23), missed out on WI 23, doesn't play Pak.

 

Let's compare the two W's.

 

Wasim

 

SEAIW - 26.09

SL NZ Zim Bang - 20.07 (NZ was very weak in the 90s and SL only became good late 90s onwards and reached peak in 00s)

 

Waqar

 

SEAIW - 28.31

SL NZ Zim Bang - 19.70

 

 

 

[deathmonger]

Their hype has been mostly due to the English media fawning after they beat a very weak Eng team in 92.

 

Aussies/Saffers don't give them much bhaav as they could do nothing against them.

[Adamant]

This is what happens when the failure of a class suddenly gets A+ in one subject.

 

Lets not compare Bumrah with Wasim as of now, he took 400+ wkts in tests and 500+ in odis, your stats take a bit of a ride when you do have that longevity.

 

Go pick up 150 wkts in Wasims peak, his record will be as good as Bumrah also unlike Bumrah he won his team a world cup.

 

 

One more thing, ek Bumrah mila hai 80 saal mai so I will advice our fans to stay calm and humble, iske pehle aur iske baad kachra hi tha hamare paas.

[Adamant]

@deathmonger can you also list down the odi stats of Bunrah against big teams and same for Wasim and Waqar?

[deathmonger]

1 minute ago, Adamant said:

This is what happens when the failure of a class suddenly gets A+ in one subject.

 

Lets not compare Bumrah with Wasim as of now, he took 400+ wkts in tests and 500+ in odis, your stats take a bit of a ride when you do have that longevity.

 

Go pick up 150 wkts in Wasims peak, his record will be as good as Bumrah also unlike Bumrah he won his team a world cup.

 

 

One more thing, ek Bumrah mila hai 80 saal mai so I will advice our fans to stay calm and humble, iske pehle aur iske baad kachra hi tha hamare paas.

WCs mean nothing.

 

Sreesanth has a WC. Waqar hasn't.

 

Bumrah was magnificent this WC as well as the final. Indian batsmen crapped the final.

 

Iske baad kachra nahi rahega.

 

Bumrah, Pant etc are due to India's economic rise. Sports is directly linked to a country's economy.

[deathmonger]

3 minutes ago, Adamant said:

@deathmonger can you also list down the odi stats of Bunrah against big teams and same for Wasim and Waqar?

The entire post was about test stats.

 

Wasim/Waqar statpadded against weak teams. That's a fact. Stats show that.

 

There is no 150 wicket stretch against GOOD teams where the two W's have Bumrah's stats. They statpadded against Bang/Zim/SL/NZ a lot.

 

Bumrah has never played Bang or Pak and only 4 matches against SL/WI (where he averages 9).

 

 

Edited February 5 by deathmonger

[putrevus]

Even if we leave whiteball cricket.He is long way from Akram.Akram is still the greatest fast bowler from Asia.If we add whiteball cricket Akram wins by a mile.

 

Bumrah has already lost his pace, he is no longer express, let him reach 250 plus wickets atleast before we compare him with other greats.

 

Waqar before his back injury had  great pace just like Bumrah but Bumrah is more skilled than Waqar.

 

No they are overrated at all. 

 

 

Edited February 5 by putrevus

[Lone Wolf]

I'll take Wasim over Bumrah in ODIs...  In tests Bumrah anyday over Akram.  Just more likely to do damage in most parts of the world. 

 

Waqar is tier below both..  Maybe in T20s he would come close to Boom. 

[jazzprit]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

This is what happens when the failure of a class suddenly gets A+ in one subject.

 

Lets not compare Bumrah with Wasim as of now, he took 400+ wkts in tests and 500+ in odis, your stats take a bit of a ride when you do have that longevity.

 

Go pick up 150 wkts in Wasims peak, his record will be as good as Bumrah also unlike Bumrah he won his team a world cup.

 

 

One more thing, ek Bumrah mila hai 80 saal mai so I will advice our fans to stay calm and humble, iske pehle aur iske baad kachra hi tha hamare paas.

Jazzy better than waqar in tests but not yet on wasims level. Impact wise he has helped india win more tests in sena you could say. Bumrah needs to get to 300 wickets in tests, or atleast 250 and then also have series win in England and win a WC title. Then we can compare.

[jazzprit]

27 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

I'll take Wasim over Bumrah in ODIs...  In tests Bumrah anyday over Akram.  Just more likely to do damage in most parts of the world. 

 

Waqar is tier below both..  Maybe in T20s he would come close to Boom. 

This will hurt many Pakistan fans but shami is on waqars level in tests. I know many will disagree but shami imo is more deadly against good teams. I don't just judge by average. If you simply look at average then great philander will have better stats than wasim akram and Waqar too. 

[goose]

going to play spoilsport, aesthetically speaking waqar's toecrushers were beyond compare.

[sensible-indian]

Just cos Bumrah is great doesn't mean those two are over-rated.

 

Especially Wasim.

 

Wasim was special.

 

Prime Wasim in T20 era would be magical.

[singhvivek141]

Waqar & Wasim (& Imran) were benefitted a lot by the ball tempering as well.

Removing that aside, Wasim was a fantastic bowler. He is equal to what Jimmy Anderson is in current scenario, quite skillful. A level below the likes of Steyn, Ambrose, McGrath (who were absolute GOAT's). If not for Diabetes he could have been even better. Would have easily averaged 23-25 in modern era.

 

Waqar was a lighter version of Shami..somewhere between Shami & Siraj tbh. Will average around 28-30 on current pitches.

Edited February 5 by singhvivek141

[sensible-indian]

Even if one were to discount Waqar's achievements due to bottle cap....

 

He still was a bloody bloody good bowler.

 

Prime Waqar would still be a terror in today's times with his pace and on pitches where the ball reverses.

 

One thing about Waqar was he had this 'can do attitude no matter what happens' which even Wasim and Bumrah lack at times.

 

He would have made the Poms see stars in the first innings of the Vizag test with his toe crushers.

[sensible-indian]

Altho post prime Waqar would have struggled in modern test cricket imho.

[Gollum]

Waqar was overrated but still great. Akram belongs in the topmost class, alongside Marshall, Ambrose, McGrath, Steyn, Donald etc. 

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, Adamant said:

 

One more thing, ek Bumrah mila hai 80 saal mai so I will advice our fans to stay calm and humble, iske pehle aur iske baad kachra hi tha hamare paas.

Fast bowling culture develop hoga to ek kya, 10 Bumrah aa jayenge.

Dhang ke coaches nahi aaenge, to jo kuch hai wo bhi khatam ho jayega

[putrevus]

18 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Waqar & Wasim (& Imran) were benefitted a lot by the ball tempering as well.

Removing that aside, Wasim was a fantastic bowler. He is equal to what Jimmy Anderson is in current scenario, quite skillful. A level below the likes of Steyn, Ambrose, McGrath (who were absolute GOAT's). If not for Diabetes he could have been even better. Would have easily averaged 23-25 in modern era.

 

Waqar was a lighter version of Shami..somewhere between Shami & Siraj tbh. Will average around 28-30 on current pitches.

If we are objective. ,Wasim would have eaten modern batsmen out for fun.Boult built himself a great career.Wasim is 1000 times better than Boult.

 

There is nothing he could not do, he is easily one of top five fast bowlers who has ever played the game. Donald is not even patch on Akram.Steyn was useless in whiteball cricket. Marshall was not that great in whiteball cricket either.

 

He played for team which was awful fielding side with butter fingers. If he played for Australia like Mcgrath who knows how many more wickets he would have ended up.

 

Waqar before his injury was top class bowler.He learnt to bowl with new ball miuch later. I agree I would not put him as top notch bowler after his injury.

 

Can you put Dennis Lillee as great fast bowler after his back injury and reduced pace.

[Gollum]

Don't let current state of Pak (in all spheres, not just cricket) cloud your judgement about their past greatness in cricket. Pak from late 70s till late 90s were always among top 3 teams, often closer to #1 than #3. 

Edited February 5 by Gollum

[singhvivek141]

11 minutes ago, putrevus said:

If we are objective. ,Wasim would have eaten modern batsmen out for fun.Boult built himself a great career.Wasim is 1000 times better than Boult.

 

There is nothing he could not do, he is easily one of top five fast bowlers who has ever played the game. Donald is not even patch on Akram.Steyn was useless in whiteball cricket. Marshall was not that great in whiteball cricket either.

 

He played for team which was awful fielding side with butter fingers. If he played for Australia like Mcgrath who knows how many more wickets he would have ended up.

 

Waqar before his injury was top class bowler.He learnt to bowl with new ball miuch later. I agree I would not put him as top notch bowler after his injury.

 

Can you put Dennis Lillee as great fast bowler after his back injury and reduced pace.

Objectively if we look, than a Babar Azam and an Imam Ul Haq averages much higher than Yousuf Yohanna or Inzamam or Saeed Anwar...will you consider the former better than the latter ?

 

I already considered that Akram lost a lot of his form and fitness due to diabetes..but with current bat size, flatter grounds, smaller boundaries, balanced balls, cameras across the stadium it isn't as easy for the bowlers as it sounds. Also, Boult averages 27 and 25 in Tests & ODI's respectively...I kept Wasim in 23-25 territory which is almost similar to what he averages currently.

 

For Waqar, he lost his pace at the age of 25 (on paper) itself...bowlers like Cummins, Bumrah recovered themselves even from multiple stress fractures and still remain competitive.

 

Lillee didn't toured India and had performed poorly in Pakistan, considering that he can't be considered equivalent to Steyn, Ambrose, Marshall.