MoM - Jadeja

[Vijy]

Just now, Trichromatic said:

 

If he can continue this run for another 3 years then he can.

I don't think he will

[Muloghonto]

11 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Aubrey Faulkner from the prehistoric (pre World War One!) era.

 

I don't think Jaddu's batting avg will cross 40, but I think he will end his career as a more accomplished batter than Imran, who was a fine batter in Tests but more of a lower/middle order consolidator.

 

Five more who came close to the coveted >40 batting avg and <30 bowling avg (with the additional requirement of >2 wkts per match) record are:

 

Sir Garry Sobers: had a weak start with the ball, otherwise he would have qualified.

Imran Khan: closest to Jaddu on current stats

Keith Miller: also very close to Jaddu on current stats (didn't bowl as much as he could, because of injuries. An underachiever with the bat, from what I've read)

Tony Greig: Nasty fellow in some ways, but one cannot debate his AR skill.

Shakib al Hasan: closest to Jaddu among modern day ARs

I knew you'd remember the Saffer dude's name. Though i was under the impression that Faulkner was from the 50s era, no ? ( haven't checked crocinfo on him)

 

Jaddu has a very good shot at ending up averaging 40+ with the bat. All he has to do, is maintain his last 3 years' 50+ batting average for another 20 dismissals and he will be there. 

Imran was a 'career allrounder' rather than a real time allrounder- he went from a bowler who can tuk tuk a bit to a chanderpaul type batsman who barely bowled. This is why Indians of that era rated Kapil as a better allrounder, because Kapil's contribution with bat and ball were more simultaneous and consistent than 'bowler who could bat a bit to batter who could bowl a bit' Imran.

 

[Muloghonto]

IF Jaddu ends up averaging 40+ with the bat, less than 20 with the ball and keeps his 4 wicekt/match haul rate, he may just go down as the most 'complete' allrounder ever. 

Sobers and Kallis were in the 'all-time great batsman who's a 5th bowler' territory - they couldnt be expected to carry the attack like Jadeja can. ofcourse Jaddu will never be an ATG batsman like those two, but i feel he's a better batsman than they were bowlers by a bigger margin than him being a better bowler than them being batsmen.

 

[coffee_rules]

28 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Aubrey Faulkner from the prehistoric (pre World War One!) era.

 

I don't think Jaddu's batting avg will cross 40, but I think he will end his career as a more accomplished batter than Imran, who was a fine batter in Tests but more of a lower/middle order consolidator.

 

Five more who came close to the coveted >40 batting avg and <30 bowling avg (with the additional requirement of >2 wkts per match) record are:

 

Sir Garry Sobers: had a weak start with the ball, otherwise he would have qualified.

Imran Khan: closest to Jaddu on current stats

Keith Miller: also very close to Jaddu on current stats (didn't bowl as much as he could, because of injuries. An underachiever with the bat, from what I've read)

Tony Greig: Nasty fellow in some ways, but one cannot debate his AR skill.

Shakib al Hasan: closest to Jaddu among modern day ARs

How about Jacques Kallis? Late bloomer in both batting and bowling?  I was impressed with IK’s batting late career, but stats and visual accounts reveal he was more of a safe tuk tuk player stat paadng (pun) rather than making any impact in a performance like Kapil Dev. Averages are a hogwash for stat rats to jizz upon. 

Edited February 18 by coffee_rules

[Vijy]

54 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

How about Jacques Kallis? Late bloomer in both batting and bowling?  I was impressed with IK’s batting late career, but stats and visual accounts reveal he was more of a safe tuk tuk player stat paadng (pun) rather than making any impact in a performance like Kapil Dev. Averages are a hogwash for stat rats to jizz upon. 

Excluded him because he never took on enough bowling burden; hence my criteria of >2 wkts per match. He was an excellent bowler, but if he had to take on more bowling burden, his batting would have taken a bit of a hit. Sir Garry had a much higher bowling load and still sustained high batting excellence.

 

indeed, Kallis was a more of a safety-first player, and that's why he may be Sir Garry's statistical equal, but in no way matches the latter's impact with both bat and ball

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

IF Jaddu ends up averaging 40+ with the bat, less than 20 with the ball and keeps his 4 wicekt/match haul rate, he may just go down as the most 'complete' allrounder ever. 

Sobers and Kallis were in the 'all-time great batsman who's a 5th bowler' territory - they couldnt be expected to carry the attack like Jadeja can. ofcourse Jaddu will never be an ATG batsman like those two, but i feel he's a better batsman than they were bowlers by a bigger margin than him being a better bowler than them being batsmen.

 

Regd the bolded part, I would agree re: Kallis. As for Sobers, there are two points to note: (1) he didn't bowl much at the beginning (there were some politics, I believe there), and (2) had to bowl on some flatter tracks and/or very strong batting lineups.

 

Hence, I would still put Sobers comfortably above Jadeja in terms of the most complete AR. Even in the current era, Shakib is a lower bowler than Jadeja but a somewhat better batter.

Edited February 18 by Vijy

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Regd the bolded part, I would agree re: Kallis. As for Sobers, there are two points to note: (1) he didn't bowl much at the beginning (there were some politics, I believe there), and (2) had to bowl on some flatter tracks and/or very strong batting lineups.

 

Hence, I would still put Sobers comfortably above Jadeja in terms of the most complete AR. Even in the current era, Shakib is a lower bowler than Jadeja but a somewhat better batter.

i dont know if its true or not, but i have heard old timer west indians say that Gary when he bowled left arm medium fast, averaged around 26-27 with the ball and when he bowled SLA, he averaged 40+ with the ball. Dont know how much of that is true, but if true, then yes, Sobers would be definitely a higher tier than Kallis ( i already rate him higher as Sobers was the clear-cut #1 batsman of his era and averaged 60 with the bat for most of his career). 

 

[Vijy]

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

i dont know if its true or not, but i have heard old timer west indians say that Gary when he bowled left arm medium fast, averaged around 26-27 with the ball and when he bowled SLA, he averaged 40+ with the ball. Dont know how much of that is true, but if true, then yes, Sobers would be definitely a higher tier than Kallis ( i already rate him higher as Sobers was the clear-cut #1 batsman of his era and averaged 60 with the bat for most of his career). 

 

that does seem plausible. sobers used SLA as a containing option - he became a ravi shastri type of bowler. If I had to guess, his bowling avg as pacer would be 28-29, as SLA would be 38-39, and about the same for wrist spin.

Edited February 18 by Vijy

[R!TTER]

His impact on the game is already beyond any other A/R ever, the best W/L ratio among his contemporaries ever!

Qualifications four wickets in an inns greater than or equal to 10  and scores of fifty or more greater than or equal to 20

Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
GS Sobers (WI)	1954-1974	93	8032	365*	57.78	26	235	6/73	34.03	6	109	0	23.74
JH Kallis (ICC/SA)	1995-2013	166	13289	224	55.37	45	292	6/54	32.65	5	200	0	22.71
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1992	88	3807	136	37.69	6	362	8/58	22.81	23	28	0	14.88
KR Miller (AUS)	1946-1956	55	2958	147	36.97	7	170	7/60	22.97	7	38	0	13.99
RA Jadeja (IND)	2012-2024	70	3005	175*	37.09	4	287	7/42	24.14	13	41	0	12.94
AW Greig (ENG)	1972-1977	58	3599	148	40.43	8	141	8/86	32.20	6	87	0	8.23
Shakib Al Hasan (BAN)	2007-2023	66	4454	217	39.07	5	233	7/36	31.06	19	26	0	8.00
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1992	102	5200	208	33.54	14	383	8/34	28.40	27	120	0	5.14
BA Stokes (ENG)	2013-2024	100	6307	258	36.24	13	197	6/22	32.07	4	106	0	4.17
CL Cairns (NZ)	1989-2004	62	3320	158	33.53	5	218	7/27	29.40	13	14	0	4.13
N Kapil Dev (IND)	1978-1994	131	5248	163	31.05	8	434	9/83	29.64	23	64	0	1.40
A Flintoff (ENG/ICC)	1998-2009	79	3845	167	31.77	5	226	5/58	32.78	3	52	0	-1.01
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	1997-2014	113	4531	140	30.00	6	362	7/87	34.36	20	58	0	-4.36
RJ Shastri (IND)	1981-1992	80	3830	206	35.79	11	151	5/75	40.96	2	36	0	-5.16
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2023	68	3094	155*	28.12	5	204	6/53	37.31	5	40	0	-9.18

Over 60% win rate, admittedly most of those wins are at home but he's not responsible for selections -

Match result won match

Qualifications four wickets in an inns greater than or equal to 5  and scores of fifty or more greater than or equal to 10

Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
GS Sobers (WI)	1956-1974	31	3097	365*	77.42	12	104	6/73	24.04	3	58	0	53.37
JH Kallis (SA)	1996-2013	82	6379	224	62.53	22	182	6/54	24.51	4	122	0	38.02
AW Greig (ENG)	1972-1977	17	1064	139	53.20	3	59	8/86	20.84	4	27	0	32.35
ST Jayasuriya (SL)	1993-2007	40	2801	253	48.29	7	54	5/34	24.38	2	32	0	23.90
KR Miller (AUS)	1946-1956	31	1779	147	43.39	4	113	7/60	19.60	7	23	0	23.78
IT Botham (ENG)	1977-1991	33	1951	149*	43.35	8	172	8/34	20.09	15	47	0	23.25
RA Jadeja (IND)	2013-2024	43	1886	175*	41.91	3	204	7/42	19.70	11	23	0	22.21
BA Stokes (ENG)	2015-2024	45	2962	176	42.92	6	91	6/22	25.39	2	71	0	17.53
DL Vettori (NZ)	1997-2014	34	1355	127	33.87	1	129	6/28	21.96	6	21	0	11.91
R Ashwin (IND)	2011-2024	57	1829	124	29.50	4	348	7/59	19.05	28	19	0	10.44
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2023	30	1278	155*	30.42	1	116	6/53	23.60	4	15	0	6.82

[cricspirit]

Sir Gary was a class in his own. Kallis was a good AR but not same skill or class as Sir Gary. Sobers had Keith Miller from his era.

 

Botham was probably complete AR. Kapil, Imran and Richard Hadlee from that group in that order. 

 

I have seen Flintoff, Chris Cairns during their days were good AR too. Pollock was decent bowling AR and so was Vettori.

 

We have Stokes, Jadeja, Ashwin, Shakib now.

 

I think Jadeja Retires as TOP10 of all time in tests. He is fit at 35 and there is no sign of decline. Rather batting has improved a lot. I think 20 more tests will give him somewhere between 3500-4000 runs and around 350 Wickets. I would say second best in India after Kapil. 

 

Batting average over 35, bowling average under 24 while taking 4 wickets per test is a rare.  That with his fielding exploits makes him very valuable and India are going to miss him when he is gone. 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, cricspirit said:

Sir Gary was a class in his own. Kallis was a good AR but not same skill or class as Sir Gary. Sobers had Keith Miller from his era.

 

Botham was probably complete AR. Kapil, Imran and Richard Hadlee from that group in that order. 

 

I have seen Flintoff, Chris Cairns during their days were good AR too. Pollock was decent bowling AR and so was Vettori.

 

We have Stokes, Jadeja, Ashwin, Shakib now.

 

I think Jadeja Retires as TOP10 of all time in tests. He is fit at 35 and there is no sign of decline. Rather batting has improved a lot. I think 20 more tests will give him somewhere between 3500-4000 runs and around 350 Wickets. I would say second best in India after Kapil. 

 

Batting average over 35, bowling average under 24 while taking 4 wickets per test is a rare.  That with his fielding exploits makes him very valuable and India are going to miss him when he is gone. 

 

 

 

The main difference between Botham and Kapil, is their peformance against the strongest teams of their time : West Indies & Australia. 
Kapil averages 25+ with the ball vs Austalia and 24+ against West Indies, while taking 80-90 wickets against them each, while averaging 26+ with the bat vs Autralia and 30+ with the bat vs West Indies, including scoring 4 of his 8 centuries vs them and 1000+ runs vs the west indies ( also 600+ runs vs Australia).

Botham meanwhile has a respectable 29+ average vs the Aussies with the bat ( scored 4 centuries vs them) but has a very 'Shane Warney-Macolm Marshall-esque' 21+ average with the bat vs west indies, with 0 centuries.  He also averages 27+ with the ball vs Australia and an abysmal 35+ with the ball vs west indies. 

 

This, despite Botham having significantly better support - of conditions and players- than kapil , as he had some genuine excellent bowlers like Willis and Underwood to keep him company. 

 

 

Its kind of why if you analyse the stats, Tendulkar and Lara are a cut above Kallis and Ponting as batsmen, because the latter two just didnt do enough against the top rated teams of their era, while the former two did.

 

[cricspirit]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

The main difference between Botham and Kapil, is their peformance against the strongest teams of their time : West Indies & Australia. 
Kapil averages 25+ with the ball vs Austalia and 24+ against West Indies, while taking 80-90 wickets against them each, while averaging 26+ with the bat vs Autralia and 30+ with the bat vs West Indies, including scoring 4 of his 8 centuries vs them and 1000+ runs vs the west indies ( also 600+ runs vs Australia).

Botham meanwhile has a respectable 29+ average vs the Aussies with the bat ( scored 4 centuries vs them) but has a very 'Shane Warney-Macolm Marshall-esque' 21+ average with the bat vs west indies, with 0 centuries.  He also averages 27+ with the ball vs Australia and an abysmal 35+ with the ball vs west indies. 

 

This, despite Botham having significantly better support - of conditions and players- than kapil , as he had some genuine excellent bowlers like Willis and Underwood to keep him company. 

 

 

Its kind of why if you analyse the stats, Tendulkar and Lara are a cut above Kallis and Ponting as batsmen, because the latter two just didnt do enough against the top rated teams of their era, while the former two did.

 

 

That is your personal analysis and opinion in between Botham and Kapil. I do respect Kapil a lot and think he underachieved in batting, but Will take Botham above him for tests. I watched the later part of Kapil dev and always expected more as a kid than what I got. 

 

Similarly I have seen entire career of Sachin, Lara, Kallis and Ponting. and yes Sachin was cut above all and Lara had the style to match. But do not think less of Ponting or Kallis even if Sachin/Lara were better. Who scored what against what team in what condition can all be sliced many ways.  Sachin, Lara, Ponting and Kallis in that order for me because Kallis was least exciting to watch.  

[Muloghonto]

14 minutes ago, cricspirit said:

 

That is your personal analysis and opinion in between Botham and Kapil. I do respect Kapil a lot and think he underachieved in batting, but Will take Botham above him for tests. I watched the later part of Kapil dev and always expected more as a kid than what I got. 

 

Similarly I have seen entire career of Sachin, Lara, Kallis and Ponting. and yes Sachin was cut above all and Lara had the style to match. But do not think less of Ponting or Kallis even if Sachin/Lara were better. Who scored what against what team in what condition can all be sliced many ways.  Sachin, Lara, Ponting and Kallis in that order for me because Kallis was least exciting to watch.  

I am not saying botham was crap. I simply think he is not as good as Kapil, because when it comes to the top quality players, performance against the top teams is what seperates a Lara or Kapil from a Ponting or Botham.

 

[cricspirit]

18 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I am not saying botham was crap. I simply think he is not as good as Kapil, because when it comes to the top quality players, performance against the top teams is what seperates a Lara or Kapil from a Ponting or Botham.

 

 

I have not seen the stats of those players in question to confirm or deny the stats but -

You think its not important to perform against lower ranked teams and those performances do not matter / need no talent ? Lower rank team means opposition did not have a good bowler or batter ? Lower ranked team means their playing conditions were great and took less effort/talent to perform ?

 

Lets flip it and think how come the performance of these greater players goes down against lesser teams/lesser quality players. What happens to their ability or motivation ? goes missing ?

 

Every performance for your team matters. Some people perform very good against specific teams which can happen to be top teams. lets say VVS Laxman against Australia. 

 

In all Botham, Kapil, Ponting, Lara were all great players. who places whom above or lower is subjective to many interpretations including personal preference. In here for example, I do not agree on Botham/Kapil but I agree on Lara greater than Ponting. I even put Dravid above Ponting.

Edited February 18 by cricspirit

[putrevus]

Botham for first 50 tests was the best allrounder. There was nobody who was better allrounder in history than Botham , he was legitimately great match winner with both ball and bat.

 

Scoring 11 test 100s and average of 38 along with 250 plus wickets at bowling avg of 23 with 18 or 19 5fers. 

He also was exceptional slip fielder.

 

Is there anyone who comes close to him?

 

[Majestic]

7 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

I knew you'd remember the Saffer dude's name. Though i was under the impression that Faulkner was from the 50s era, no ? ( haven't checked crocinfo on him)

 

Jaddu has a very good shot at ending up averaging 40+ with the bat. All he has to do, is maintain his last 3 years' 50+ batting average for another 20 dismissals and he will be there. 

Imran was a 'career allrounder' rather than a real time allrounder- he went from a bowler who can tuk tuk a bit to a chanderpaul type batsman who barely bowled. This is why Indians of that era rated Kapil as a better allrounder, because Kapil's contribution with bat and ball were more simultaneous and consistent than 'bowler who could bat a bit to batter who could bowl a bit' Imran.

 

 

You have to be really extraordinary to turn from an ATG fast bowlers who averages 20-21 for first 70 tests to become a proper batter averaging 37 in next 18 tests.

 

He has a bat avg +6 higher than Kapil and a bowl Avg -6 lower than Kapil too. The difference is massive. 

[Majestic]

I would consider these names as top 5 test all rounders in international cricket in last 60 years:-

 

Sobers

Imran

Kallis

Botham

Kapil

 

Has Jadeja done enough to replace Botham or Kapil from this list?

Edited February 19 by Majestic

[cricspirit]

2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

I would consider these names as top 5 test all rounders in international cricket in last 60 years:-

 

Sobers

Imran

Kallis

Botham

Kapil

 

Has Jadeja done enough to replace Botham or Kapil from this list?

 

 

Why is Kallis better than Botham and Kapil ? He was a batter who could bowl well but his bowling dint matter to SA team fortunes. Just because he has a bunch of wickets he is an allrounder above Botham and Kapil ? Kallis has less than 2 wickets per test having played 160 plus matches. He just collected wickets by being the 4th/5th bowler. His skill is way too tilted towards batting. He never played as an all rounder all through his playing days.

 

[Majestic]

1 minute ago, cricspirit said:

 

 

Why is Kallis better than Botham and Kapil ? He was a batter who could bowl well but his bowling dint matter to SA team fortunes. Just because he has a bunch of wickets he is an allrounder above Botham and Kapil ? Kallis has less than 2 wickets per test having played 160 plus matches. He just collected wickets by being the 4th/5th bowler. His skill is way too tilted towards batting. He never played as an all rounder all through his playing days.

 

My view on batting all rounder is that because their bowling is a weaker suit, it will further weaken with time and age. Most bowling all rounders anyways don't have a career of 150 tests or more but batting all rounders can have such career if their batting is still good enough to merit a place in the team. 

 

Kallis after 70 tests had 150 wickets at avg of 29. He picked 273 wickets in ODIs too and has a 5-fer in 2000 CT semis. It is just a case of his team not requiring much bowling from Kallis. He was good enough to qualify as all rounder, hence makes it to the list. Otherwise, by your logic, no batting all rounder or max 1-2 would even make your top 10 list.

[rollingstoned]

Glad that the 1st innings Sarfaraz run out will only be relegated to a forgettable footnote now.