Kohli - Greatest player in white-ball cricket!!!

[Dil Dil India]

49 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

White ball cricket is not a monolith. Any discussion that does not separate ODIs from T20s, especially in modern cricket, is not worth having.

 

That said, VK is the ODI GOAT.

 

That's a poor take, Modern ODIs are essentially extended T20s. When you combine it you are essentially asking who's the best white ball player since 2004 (or whichever year T20 was first played). That's a fair question.

[Ultimate_Game]

Kohli was a beast in mid 2010s but he isn't the same anymore. And even then he was more of a bi-lateral or group stage bully. He doesn't have those clutch match-defining innings in knockouts, especially in ODIs. He had his chances in 2015 and especially 2019 but failed. That 2019 WC game was right up his ally. All he had to do was play out the first spell from Boult and Henry and the match was there for the taking! But just like WC 2015 SF or CT2017 he couldn't get past the tough stage.

 

In WC2023 he played second fiddle to Shreyas Iyer in SF. Kohli's knock was the slowest in that SF and if not for Iyer, we would've ended up with a total of 330 odd and beaten by kiwis. In the final Kohli had the chance to be the difference maker but got out for a 50. Overall, he has under-achieved massively in ODI WCs. Don't think he should play the next one as he's a shadow of his former self and 2027 would be too far for him.

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 hour ago, Dil Dil India said:

 

That's a poor take, Modern ODIs are essentially extended T20s. When you combine it you are essentially asking who's the best white ball player since 2004 (or whichever year T20 was first played). That's a fair question.

I still beg to differ here. Modern ODIs may be extensions of ancient T20s.

 

But modern T20s have evolved past being mini-ODIs. The skill-sets required, while similar, are not identical. Some guys - like SKY - who can tee off from Ball 1 are better suited to modern T20s. Others - like VK and Pant - who need a bit to time to dig in before they tee off are not suited to T20s. There are some people who transcend formats, but they are the exception. Moreover modern T20s need more multi-skilled players, whereas in ODIs, you rely more on specialists.

 

 

 

[Number]

 

3 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Kohli was a beast in mid 2010s but he isn't the same anymore. And even then he was more of a bi-lateral or group stage bully. He doesn't have those clutch match-defining innings in knockouts, especially in ODIs. He had his chances in 2015 and especially 2019 but failed. That 2019 WC game was right up his ally. All he had to do was play out the first spell from Boult and Henry and the match was there for the taking! But just like WC 2015 SF or CT2017 he couldn't get past the tough stage.

 

In WC2023 he played second fiddle to Shreyas Iyer in SF. Kohli's knock was the slowest in that SF and if not for Iyer, we would've ended up with a total of 330 odd and beaten by kiwis. In the final Kohli had the chance to be the difference maker but got out for a 50. Overall, he has under-achieved massively in ODI WCs. Don't think he should play the next one as he's a shadow of his former self and 2027 would be too far for him.

 

I agree that Bilateral ODIs count for none, specially since the T20s have come, most big teams don't even play full strength bowling attack in those. Even Imam Ul Haq averages 50+ in ODIs in this era due to this.

 

But can't discount Kohli's group stage or non-knockout performances in the world cups. It shows his ability to handle full strength attacks under high pressure.  

Edited July 5, 2024 by Number

[Ultimate_Game]

1 hour ago, Number said:

 

Bilateral ODIs count for nothing. 

 

I agree that Bilateral ODIs count for none, specially since the T20s have come, most big teams don't even play full strength bowling attack in those. Even Imam Ul Haq averages 50+ in ODIs in this era due to this.

 

But can't discount Kohli's group stage or non-knockout performances in the world cups. It shows his ability to handle full strength attacks under high pressure.  

 

Yeah but you've to have at least one difference making innings. He doesn't in ODIs, and as you rightly mention bi-lateral series don't mean much and top teams don't even send their best teams for bilaterals these days. In white-ball it's all about WCS - ODI and WT20 - and CT to a lesser extent. Outside that you don't even remember who won the series between two sides. He's still a top player in ODIs and white-ball cricket, and was one of the best batsmen while chasing in mid 2010s (from 2013-2018) but lack of any significant performance in a knockout does count against him. One of the best players - yes. The best white-all batsman or GOAT - No.

[Kron]

6 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Yeah but you've to have at least one difference making innings. He doesn't in ODIs, and as you rightly mention bi-lateral series don't mean much and top teams don't even send their best teams for bilaterals these days. In white-ball it's all about WCS - ODI and WT20 - and CT to a lesser extent. Outside that you don't even remember who won the series between two sides. He's still a top player in ODIs and white-ball cricket, and was one of the best batsmen while chasing in mid 2010s (from 2013-2018) but lack of any significant performance in a knockout does count against him. One of the best players - yes. The best white-all batsman or GOAT - No.

What coolietards don't understand his most of his knows in bilaterls were against Clint McKay's, boland, topley, Dawson and the ilk.

 

So...yea

 

He faced starc hazlewood Cummins trio only a few times in bilaterals. Sure he may have done ok but there is no pressure in bilaterals. Great players are created when they perform under pressure. Winners are celebrated. 

 

He hasn't don't quite well enough in odi. 

 

His knock given the circumstances in nz was average

His knock in the final again could have been better. You need to have atleast one bloody good knock in like 4 attempts. Failed in 2017 c.trophy final. 

 

 

[Vk1]

Kohli tuned his career to get exactly this kind of appreciation. Ever wondered how Kohli miraculously explodes after scoring 100? If Kohli only thought about winning his hundred count would be little less and average little down but no.. you play for fans who care more about numbers & stats than winning. [ Sachin too was criticized similarly but his numbers were excellent for the times he played in.. high 80s strikerate & 45+ avg is mind blowingly good for our asansol team ( until Yuvi & msd rose ) in 90s & 2000s. ] 

 

Kohli had the chance to make our batting unit go few notches above.. we might have failed few times in that pursuit but it would have definitely changed the mindset of the team forever and our cricketing ecosystem as a whole ( he did that brilliantly with our fast bowling group in tests ). Unfortunately, one of our greatest players will be remembered as a stat padder inspite of playing in the best possible time in our cricketing history.  

[New guy]

26 minutes ago, Vk1 said:

Kohli tuned his career to get exactly this kind of appreciation. Ever wondered how Kohli miraculously explodes after scoring 100? If Kohli only thought about winning his hundred count would be little less and average little down but no.. you play for fans who care more about numbers & stats than winning. [ Sachin too was criticized similarly but his numbers were excellent for the times he played in.. high 80s strikerate & 45+ avg is mind blowingly good for our asansol team ( until Yuvi & msd rose ) in 90s & 2000s. ] 

 

Kohli had the chance to make our batting unit go few notches above.. we might have failed few times in that pursuit but it would have definitely changed the mindset of the team forever and our cricketing ecosystem as a whole ( he did that brilliantly with our fast bowling group in tests ). Unfortunately, one of our greatest players will be remembered as a stat padder inspite of playing in the best possible time in our cricketing history.  

Yep people forget that Sachin started in late 80s were average score was 210 or less and then set the trend for attacking opening every before the likes of jayasurya, then adopted to 2000s when 300 became the noem  then scored the first ODI 200 in the 2010s when there were scores of 400+. That's amazing adapitlibilty across eras. 

 

Anyone who thinks he couldn't do as well as Kohli if he played in his prime in the kohli era is deluded. He had way more shots and ability that Kohli. 

[zen]

Unfortunately, the greatest player spam has become unavoidable in Indian cricket. 
 

First, got bored as hell with Sachin’s PR. Now it is Kohli’s. In a few years, it will be someone else’s. 
 

Too stuck on unnecessary labels. 
 

 

 

 

[King6]

1 hour ago, Vk1 said:

Kohli tuned his career to get exactly this kind of appreciation. Ever wondered how Kohli miraculously explodes after scoring 100? If Kohli only thought about winning his hundred count would be little less and average little down but no.. you play for fans who care more about numbers & stats than winning. [ Sachin too was criticized similarly but his numbers were excellent for the times he played in.. high 80s strikerate & 45+ avg is mind blowingly good for our asansol team ( until Yuvi & msd rose ) in 90s & 2000s. ] 

 

Kohli had the chance to make our batting unit go few notches above.. we might have failed few times in that pursuit but it would have definitely changed the mindset of the team forever and our cricketing ecosystem as a whole ( he did that brilliantly with our fast bowling group in tests ). Unfortunately, one of our greatest players will be remembered as a stat padder inspite of playing in the best possible time in our cricketing history.  

Kohli is not a opener to dominate bowlers form ball one like sehwaag, gilly.. Even sachin was a opener 

 

 

[King6]

1 hour ago, New guy said:

Yep people forget that Sachin started in late 80s were average score was 210 or less and then set the trend for attacking opening every before the likes of jayasurya, then adopted to 2000s when 300 became the noem  then scored the first ODI 200 in the 2010s when there were scores of 400+. That's amazing adapitlibilty across eras. 

 

Anyone who thinks he couldn't do as well as Kohli if he played in his prime in the kohli era is deluded. He had way more shots and ability that Kohli. 

What about sachin 100th hundred against toygers.. What happened to sachin shots

[King6]

1 hour ago, New guy said:

Yep people forget that Sachin started in late 80s were average score was 210 or less and then set the trend for attacking opening every before the likes of jayasurya, then adopted to 2000s when 300 became the noem  then scored the first ODI 200 in the 2010s when there were scores of 400+. That's amazing adapitlibilty across eras. 

 

Anyone who thinks he couldn't do as well as Kohli if he played in his prime in the kohli era is deluded. He had way more shots and ability that Kohli. 

Sachin away stats in 90s.. Very poor

[New guy]

20 minutes ago, King6 said:

Sachin away stats in 90s.. Very poor

He only started opening towards mid of 1994, those stats are good for no 6, 7 at that time. Also you have not taken many matches on neutral venue away from home where he owned teams like Australia. He averaged 45 as an opener when he started opening in the 90s including away and neutral venues. 

 

 

 

 

[Kron]

Both kohli and sacchu were stat padders tbh. Kohli won everything in LOI and also won maces in tests but he could have won a lot more given how strong our bowling was/is.

 

Sacchu had the excuse of weak bowling attsck though. 

 

He definitely played for stats over winning though in LOI. Even in tests sometimes.

 

 

[King6]

17 minutes ago, New guy said:

He only started opening towards mid of 1994, those stats are good for no 6, 7 at that time. Also you have not taken many matches on neutral venue away from home where he owned teams like Australia. He averaged 45 as an opener when he started opening in the 90s including away and neutral venues. 

 

 

 

 

Oh sachin need to opening place to dominate oppositions?. Then what is the use of all shots... In 2000s away stats vs top 7 teams, ponting > sachin..

[Kron]

4 minutes ago, King6 said:

Oh sachin need to opening place to dominate oppositions?. Then what is the use of all shots... In 2000s away stats vs top 7 teams, ponting > sachin..

Ponting dint have the face mcgrath Warne though. 

[King6]

6 minutes ago, Kron said:

Ponting dint have the face mcgrath Warne though. 

Excluding aus n ind

[Kron]

1 minute ago, King6 said:

Excluding aus n ind

Ya 46 v 49 that's close though. 

 

I am not a srt fan anyway. So Ponting > tenda? 

 

But damn attapatu is underrated huh

Edited July 23, 2024 by Kron

[King6]

5 minutes ago, Kron said:

Ya 46 v 49 that's close though. 

 

I am not a srt fan anyway. So Ponting > tenda? 

 

But damn attapatu is underrated huh

Yes impact wise ponting > sachin in 2000s

[New guy]

43 minutes ago, King6 said:

Oh sachin need to opening place to dominate oppositions?. Then what is the use of all shots... In 2000s away stats vs top 7 teams, ponting > sachin..

You really think that playing at no 6,7 gives players enough balls?

 

Their stats are extremely close and Sachin was top for way way longer. How does that prove ponting was greater than Sachin? Sachins stat is almost a combination of 2-3 greats over different periods, that's how consistent he was.

 

You have compared him to Ponting, but he was compared to Anwar, Inzi, De Silva, Lara, Richards, waugh brothers, jayasurya, and even way older players like Marshall. In the modern era he is compared with kohli, rohit, Hayden, and many more.  He was THE benchmark in 2 and half decades. That's the biggest sign of greatness of a player, ponting was compared to him, Sachin was never compared to ponting. Even today after retiring from ODIs for 13 years he is still the benchmark 

 

Sachin is such a phenomenon that he has played over 10% of all ODIs every played (no, not just India but all ODIs by any country), so if you choose any scoreboard at random, there is over 10% chance that Sachin would have featured in it.

Edited July 23, 2024 by New guy