Why is Richards Hadlee rated better bowler than Imran Khan?

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, zen said:

No self respecting top bowler would keep playing for as long as Kapil did without many meaningful performances. He bowled within himself to last long for “himself”. 
 

If I am not wrong, guys like Srinath had to be wait for their debut. A bowler called Shekhar was sidelined after a bad game because he was said to bowl faster than Kapil. And when Kapil’s own first test in Pakistan was among the worst debuts. 

Kapil is the king of trundlers!

 

That title belongs to Bhuvi Bhaiya.

 

Kapil did slowed down for 50% of his career. But he kept on performing against the big teams like Australia & WI.

 

Kapil startes from that era where fast bowling was considered waste of space by Indian team. Since he was the first of the list, obviously some amount of pride will go in.

 

Talking of the hanging for too long, that's a problem with entire South East Asian teams..Imran played till age of 40*, Jayasuria played till 39-40, Miandad 38*, Sachin 40 and so on. No one wants others to take up their place.

Even Siraj has to wait for his test debut till he became 26 years old due to multiple injuries to main bowlers., while he was picking up wickets in Ranji from 3-4 years.

[Rightarmfast]

44 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

That title belongs to Bhuvi Bhaiya.

 

Kapil did slowed down for 50% of his career. But he kept on performing against the big teams like Australia & WI.

 

Kapil startes from that era where fast bowling was considered waste of space by Indian team. Since he was the first of the list, obviously some amount of pride will go in.

 

Talking of the hanging for too long, that's a problem with entire South East Asian teams..Imran played till age of 40*, Jayasuria played till 39-40, Miandad 38*, Sachin 40 and so on. No one wants others to take up their place.

Even Siraj has to wait for his test debut till he became 26 years old due to multiple injuries to main bowlers., while he was picking up wickets in Ranji from 3-4 years.

Cmon Yaar, noone can compare to Kapil when it comes to stretching his career for selfish reasons. Towards the fag end of his career, he was bowling slower than the spinners. 

Imran was still performing with the bat and his experience in shaping up careers of youngsters is worth its weight in gold. I dont consider Imran to be selfish at all. He could be anything, but not selfish. He served his country well. 

[zen]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

Shekhar was heading MRF pace academy. He was indeed sidelined by Kapil, as was Yograj, Yuvraj's father. Apparently because they had genuine pace, and better ceiling than Kapil. 

Those days were no better than whats happening now. Indeed, Kapil was a very selfish cricketer and spoilt careers of quite a few including a peak Javagal Srinath. 

But still I dont think he ever tampered with the ball. And we still have to give credit where its due. To carry a nation alone with bowling and when needed, with fielding and batting is no mean achievement. With better partners, Kapil could have done much better bowling wise. I guess he has himself to blame.

Kapil was a part of the same bowling group as Manoj Prabhakar’s, who used to temper with the ball, and Kapil used to bowl with the same ball. Kapil to me comes across as a person who keeps his hands clean, firing the bullet behind someone’s back. 
 

I see match fixing as a bigger issue than ball tempering. A player is tempering a ball to give his own team an advantage, while a player fixes matches to his team’s disadvantage. I don’t think Imran Khan would engage in match fixing. 
 

As a bowler, he was not as good as Imran and Hadlee. Not talking about stats but by simply watching him bowl. Both Imran and Hadlee are also like 8-9 years older than Kapil. If I am not wrong, Imran & Hadlee are from Gavaskar’s batch. 

 

Hadlee, even when he was close to 40, was able to destroy teams. In 1988, when he toured India, he was around 37-38 years old. 

Kapil had a good peak in early to mid 80s, both as a bowler and all rounder, and for that he should be appreciated! Ian Botham too had a good peak in the late 70s - early 80s.

Edited August 14, 2024 by zen

[zen]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

That title belongs to Bhuvi Bhaiya.

 

Kapil did slowed down for 50% of his career. But he kept on performing against the big teams like Australia & WI.

 

Kapil startes from that era where fast bowling was considered waste of space by Indian team. Since he was the first of the list, obviously some amount of pride will go in.

 

Talking of the hanging for too long, that's a problem with entire South East Asian teams..Imran played till age of 40*, Jayasuria played till 39-40, Miandad 38*, Sachin 40 and so on. No one wants others to take up their place.

Even Siraj has to wait for his test debut till he became 26 years old due to multiple injuries to main bowlers., while he was picking up wickets in Ranji from 3-4 years.

 

Kapil should have retired in 1989 after the Nehru Cup. At worst, post the 1992 World Cup, where his batting was useful. 
 

If he wanted to extend his career for meaningless records, he should have also focused on grooming youngsters, while improving his batting. 

If he had played the 1996 World Cup, he could have becoming a laughing stock. 

 

[zen]

When bantering with Pakistani posters, I don’t mind if we throw bottle caps at them for good harmless fun. They would find something to throw at our cricketers as well. 
 

But deep down, we know many of our cricketers are not holier than thou, being involved with everything from ball tempering to match fixing. 
 

If we are naive enough to believe in our cricketers holiness, better to be naive enough to believe that each of us is as rich as Tom Cruise, who probably nets $1-2M per week irrespective of market conditions.

 

Now I am not even sure why we need to take Pakistanis seriously. Why do we box ourselves into comparisons with Pakistan (not just in cricket)? Even Afghanis don’t take Pakistanis seriously apart from their nuisance value. We have to begin to decouple ourselves from Pakistan, which would like to tag India with it as it has nothing better to do.
 

Whether an Indian cricketer is better or worse, it makes no difference to anyone’s life (talking about sensible folks).
 

As cricket fans, it is better to focus on commenting on the pros and cons of cricketers irrespective of their nationality. We have big hearts!

Edited August 14, 2024 by zen

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Shekhar was heading MRF pace academy. He was indeed sidelined by Kapil, as was Yograj, Yuvraj's father. Apparently because they had genuine pace, and better ceiling than Kapil. 

Those days were no better than whats happening now. Indeed, Kapil was a very selfish cricketer and spoilt careers of quite a few including a peak Javagal Srinath. 

But still I dont think he ever tampered with the ball. And we still have to give credit where its due. To carry a nation alone with bowling and when needed, with fielding and batting is no mean achievement. With better partners, Kapil could have done much better bowling wise. I guess he has himself to blame.

That is nonsense, where did you get this information. how did Kapil Dev sidline Yograj. If they had higher ceiling, he would have picked more 60 FC wickets.Same with TA Shekhar.

 

Nor did he spoil peak Javagal's career.Srinath was the third seamer till Kapil retired and he was playing every away series after his debut.

 

Kapil and Prabhakar were preferred at home as they were allrounders and yes Kapil was looking for that record.India was winning at home and he was a better option than Srinath at home. So I don't see where he was stopping Javagal Srinath. 

 

Did Shami help Bumrah or vice versa? Why did they not do the same with Umesh then.

 

 

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

That title belongs to Bhuvi Bhaiya.

 

Kapil did slowed down for 50% of his career. But he kept on performing against the big teams like Australia & WI.

 

Kapil startes from that era where fast bowling was considered waste of space by Indian team. Since he was the first of the list, obviously some amount of pride will go in.

 

Talking of the hanging for too long, that's a problem with entire South East Asian teams..Imran played till age of 40*, Jayasuria played till 39-40, Miandad 38*, Sachin 40 and so on. No one wants others to take up their place.

Even Siraj has to wait for his test debut till he became 26 years old due to multiple injuries to main bowlers., while he was picking up wickets in Ranji from 3-4 years.

Hanging on too long? I would not blame any player for wanting to play as long as possible. What are selectors and captain doing.

 

These players you mentioned were very great players who took pride in their performances also, did they play too long , yes but I would not say they became a burden on the team.Jimmy played till he was 40.

 

Kapil and Prabhakar were filling in roles of allrounder in home tests.Srinath was not a better fit in home tests, it is always upto the player  to show case his talent and become important member of the team.

 

Kapil was number 8 or number 9 in his debut series and he was even sent as nightwatchman.He became number 6 by batting better than even some of the batsmen in the team.

 

With in 3plus years Kapil became the captain of the team.Show me another player who raised his level in all facets of the game as Kapil.Botham is only one who comes close to him.

 

Siraj was/is never in class of Shami or Bumrah.What great things has Siraj done in international cricket. Doing well in Ranji or A tours is no indication on how well they will do in international cricket.Ishant was a better option than Siraj that is why playing ahead of him.

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Cmon Yaar, noone can compare to Kapil when it comes to stretching his career for selfish reasons. Towards the fag end of his career, he was bowling slower than the spinners. 

Imran was still performing with the bat and his experience in shaping up careers of youngsters is worth its weight in gold. I dont consider Imran to be selfish at all. He could be anything, but not selfish. He served his country well. 

Oh really , if Imran was so great, why did he not shape the careers of Tahir Naqqash, Azeem Hafiz and Saleem Jaffar.

 

It is like Dhoni syndrome every player who does well credit goes to Imran/Dhoni but if the players stink it is not on them.

 

Wasim and Waqar give Imran credit but they were going to be great no matter who was the captain.Did he team reverse swing, he also learnt it from someone else.You think Akram or Younis are not sharing the information with bowlers who came after them.

 

Unlike selfish Imran who picked and choose which series to play, Kapil was playing in every series. Do you think he would not be sharing information he had with other bowlers.

[New guy]

On 8/10/2024 at 2:29 PM, Adamant said:

Imran was a great new ball bowler too, its not all bottlecaps.

 

Hadlee is rated better because of a better balanced record in other strong countries.

 

Imran is easily the better allrounder though and the greatest cricketer Asia has produced by a landslide margin.

Atg bowler

Test class batsman

World cup winning captain

Oxford graduate

Alpha Stud

PM of a nation

 

Aura 1000000.

 

Comparing to him we have a 5 foot 2 vada in pav eater 

Are you saying bottle caps wont harm a new ball? The whole point of using bottle caps was so that you dont need the ball to be old to swing. So how does ball being new matter here? A damaged ball helps in everything, normal swing, seam and reverse. Its not just reverse.

Edited August 14, 2024 by New guy

[New guy]

On 8/10/2024 at 2:39 PM, Adamant said:

Here goes the low iq rant.

 

Do you know bottle caps aren’t effective from ball one and the umpire do notice that if a new ball is shredded in the first few overs itself.

 

Check Imrans wicket tally with the new ball that would be enough proof of his effectiveness, people across world forums rate him as one of the 5 ATg pacers .

Why wouldnt it be effective with a new ball? Its the shape of the ball which matters

 

And the paid home umpire noticed things? Dude they were the ones keeping the caps in their pocket and then handing it to the fielders when needed

[Adamant]

16 hours ago, New guy said:

Are you saying bottle caps wont harm a new ball? The whole point of using bottle caps was so that you dont need the ball to be old to swing. So how does ball being new matter here? A damaged ball helps in everything, normal swing, seam and reverse. Its not just reverse.

So you think Imran, Wasim, Waqar started using bottle cap from ball one and were obtaining reverse swing in the first few overs itself?

 

Do you think the umpires, the opposition and referees were so naive that they didn’t see that a brand new ball is completely mutilated in the first few overs? 
 

You are taking this to a new level here, yes tampering happened but it wasn’t so outrightly obvious lol.

 

Why do you think that the batters who faced these bowlers rated them so highly? Coz if a simpleton with zero cricketing skills like you knew they tampered with the ball then the batsman facing them would definitely know that.

 

Tell me something, would you rate an opponent highly if you knew he cheated from ball one and in every game he played against you? Considering that there is no political pressure on you why would you even rate him?

 

I already know uour answer will have some unrelated and logicless rant but I am hoping for once you tell me something logical and answer my question properly.

@putrevus you can also read this and answer my question 

Edited August 15, 2024 by Adamant

[Adamant]

16 hours ago, New guy said:

Why wouldnt it be effective with a new ball? Its the shape of the ball which matters

 

And the paid home umpire noticed things? Dude they were the ones keeping the caps in their pocket and then handing it to the fielders when needed

Imran has a very good record away from home too, he averages 25.76 away from home and 20 in home conditions, this difference in average is pretty much in the normal range.

 

Dale steyn averages 21 in home conditions and 25 away.

Kapil averages 26.5 at home and 32.86 away. 
 

There are many other examples

[Majestic]

7 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Imran has a very good record away from home too, he averages 25.76 away from home and 20 in home conditions, this difference in average is pretty much in the normal range.

 

Dale steyn averages 21 in home conditions and 25 away.

Kapil averages 26.5 at home and 32.86 away. 
 

There are many other examples

There are comical suggestions by some posters here. Imran averages 26 away from home, so according to them he is a 26 averaging bowler and at same level as Shami, Gillespie etc. His home record counts for nothing.

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, Adamant said:

So you think Imran, Wasim, Waqar started using bottle cap from ball one and were obtaining reverse swing in the first few overs itself?

 

Do you think the umpires, the opposition and referees were so naive that they didn’t see that a brand new ball is completely mutilated in the first few overs? 
 

You are taking this to a new level here, yes tampering happened but it wasn’t so outrightly obvious lol.

 

Why do you think that the batters who faced these bowlers rated them so highly? Coz if a simpleton with zero cricketing skills like you knew they tampered with the ball then the batsman facing them would definitely know that.

 

Tell me something, would you rate an opponent highly if you knew he cheated from ball one and in every game he played against you? Considering that there is no political pressure on you why would you even rate him?

 

I already know uour answer will have some unrelated and logicless rant but I am hoping for once you tell me something logical and answer my question properly.

@putrevus you can also read this and answer my question 

Nobody said they were not good. Except Akram no one is ATG and that is something you are not able to understand.

 

Their greatness is aided by soda caps.

[deathmonger]

9 hours ago, Majestic said:

There are comical suggestions by some posters here. Imran averages 26 away from home, so according to them he is a 26 averaging bowler and at same level as Shami, Gillespie etc. His home record counts for nothing.

If he was as good, why is his away record relatively "bad" compared to the likes of McGrath, Ambrose, Bumrah, Hadlee, Marshall etc aka the true elite.

 

His home record was boosted by home umpires and ball tampering.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, deathmonger said:

If he was as good, why is his away record relatively "bad" compared to the likes of McGrath, Ambrose, Bumrah, Hadlee, Marshall etc aka the true elite.

 

His home record was boosted by home umpires and ball tampering.

Being a fast bowler in subcontinent is really a hard job. If we look at the overseas pacers you mentioned,during Hadlee and Marshall era, Sri Lanka were minnows and India were average team. Hadlee's record is poor in Pakistan. There was hardly any challenge in Asia. Ambrose never played in India. McGrath starred in ATG Australian side.

 

Warne and Lyon are rated higher despite relatively "bad" record ( Warne's career avg same as Imran's away avg) because their home games are in Australia.

 

In a similar manner, Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Kapil and Srinath should be rated higher than their averages.

 

This means Kapil and Srinath can be rated as an approx 27 averaging bowler. 

 

Imran and Wasim are right up there with any top tier ATG bowler. Waqar's record can be questioned because his record is slightly inflated by bashing weaker opponents. However, lot of teams were quality in 90s and he did well.

 

Bumrah played most of his matches outside Asia and barely plays 6 tests on an average per year so doesn't faces a lot of challenge of adapting to the conditions because India has many top bowlers in home conditions. Nevertheless, he is as good as his average which is top tier ATG level, just need longevity.

 

 

[zen]

Let’s use desi logic to settle Imran v Kapil.

 

Kapil’s away average is bad, so not to be counted.

 

Imran’s home average is good, so not to be counted. 
 

Kapil’s home average is 26 and Imran’s away average is 26, so both are on par
 

(Over the years Kapil fanboys have been doing mental gymnastics unsuccessfully to show Kapil as a better bowler than he “actually” is. Kapil has also been portrayed like the poor mother in Hindi films such as Deewar and Amar Akbar Anthony. Only folks who are getting convinced are them. … Better to just accept the reality  )

[Rightarmfast]

Kapil wasnt a better bowler than Imran. But with better bowling partners, the gap would have been lesser and perhaps he would have been counted as a great fast bowler. Kapil didnt have the luxury that Imran had. 

[deathmonger]

2 hours ago, zen said:

Let’s use desi logic to settle Imran v Kapil.

 

Kapil’s away average is bad, so not to be counted.

 

Imran’s home average is good, so not to be counted. 
 

Kapil’s home average is 26 and Imran’s away average is 26, so both are on par
 

(Over the years Kapil fanboys have been doing mental gymnastics unsuccessfully to show Kapil as a better bowler than he “actually” is. Kapil has also been portrayed like the poor mother in Hindi films such as Deewar and Amar Akbar Anthony. Only folks who are getting convinced are them. … Better to just accept the reality  )

Kapil is not on Imran's level.

 

Similarly Wasim, Waqar, Imran are not on the level of the true elite - McGrath, Ambrose, Marshall, Hadlee, Bumrah etc

 

They are basically bowling versions of guys like Inzamam, Miandad, Jayawardene, Mohd Yousuf who have 50 or near 50 batting averages which are heavily skewed due to home conditions/umpiring (in case of Miandad) but are simply not on the level of Tendulkar, Lara, Kallis, Gavaskar, Smith etc.

 

Not saying they are bad but they are not tier 1.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2024 by deathmonger

[zen]

1 hour ago, deathmonger said:

Similarly Wasim, Waqar, Imran are not on the level of the true elite - McGrath, Ambrose, Marshall, Hadlee, Bumrah etc

From your list, If I am picking 4 pace bowlers for my 11:

 

Marshall

Ambrose

Hadlee 

McGrath or Imran (if I want batting depth) or Wasim (if I want a left arm option) 

 

Waqar & Bumrah (at the moment), I would not consider. Will be interesting to see what Waqar’s # were after 35 or so tests.