Pant has all the skills leveling with Tendulkar but match awareness of Arshdeep

[R!TTER]

33 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Anyone asking for Pant to be dropped is a moron of the highest class.

You can keep Pants & shove him up you know where, this Pants Puran is getting way out of hand - for all the talk of blind RGS/fat arse fans out there there's probably at least 10% blind Pants fans here as well 

[rkt.india]

3 hours ago, R!TTER said:

You can keep Pants & shove him up you know where, this Pants Puran is getting way out of hand - for all the talk of blind RGS/fat arse fans out there there's probably at least 10% blind Pants fans here as well 

I am no one's fanboy but you dont drop a guy who played 100 plus deliveries trying to draw the game.

[lemsip]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

I am no one's fanboy but you dont drop a guy who played 100 plus deliveries trying to draw the game.

Yeah.  I have no problems with dropping Pant if someone can seriously show it would improve the batting or the team's chances in the final test.

[vvvslaxman]

4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

How he is a specialist batsman when he is keeping for 100 overs. He kept for 100 overs and then had to come in to bat 45/3. A wk shouldn't be coming to bat so early. He shouldn't be batting any higher than 6 in test.

 

Let us not get in lost in terminology here. His role is still the same as that of a specialist batsman. Basics remain the same for all batsmen when it comes to common sense.

[New guy]

On 1/1/2025 at 6:58 PM, vvvslaxman said:

 

Let us not get in lost in terminology here. His role is still the same as that of a specialist batsman. Basics remain the same for all batsmen when it comes to common sense.

A keeper is NOT a specialist batsman. There is no keeper in history who averages 50 after being keeper consistently, not even sanga or Gilchrist did

 

It's not humanely possible to be a normal batsman after keeping entire innings

Edited January 3, 2025 by New guy

[Vijy]

7 minutes ago, New guy said:

A keeper is NOT a specialist batsman. There is no keeper in history who averages 50 after being keeper consistently, not even sanga or Gilchrist did

 

It's not humanely possible to be a normal batsman after keeping entire innings

I agree with your general point, but I want to add that one regular keeper-batter did do the impossible: Andy Flower. the most underrated batter among all the keepers in history. true one-man army.

[New guy]

Pants style of play has made him successful for 5+ years now. This is his first off series and everyone jumped on him like vultures.

 

He is now clearly confused and doesn't know how to play 

 

I hope everyone involved, captain, coach, fans, media are happy and priud to do this to our test star.

 

This is no different that the same defensive mentality which asks fast bowlers to bowl slow and line and length after going for runs for couple of matches and ruining them.

 

The same people criticizing him were also abusing him in the Gabba match last series, asking him to play for draw, people can check the commentary of that match. Now they are glad they proved him "wrong", how dare he!

 

We are a cowardly phattu nation who are full of scaredy cats who want everyone else to be exactly like them. The play for draw mentality of the 90s is completely back now.

 

There is a reason we never ever succeed and stay in top for long consistently like australia because we are too scared. 

 

We won last series there because our youth under rahane played to win, if we had the same phattu draw mentality we would have been thrashed last Australia series too. The draws we had, we had batsmen like pant attacking the bowlers and putting them off before playing for a draw, we never played for a draw from ball 1. Yet we never learn our lesson.

 

We are happy to be a cowardly nation in the hope of escaping with draws and will always attack and destroy those who ever want to change this mentality and take risks.

 

We are a nation full of people who want a safe, middle class income and retire with their sons and daughters being doctors and engineers. Bask in mediocrity without risks. And that mentality will never change, it's just passed from generation to generation.

Edited January 3, 2025 by New guy

[New guy]

9 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I agree with your general point, but I want to add that one regular keeper-batter did do the impossible: Andy Flower. the most underrated batter among all the keepers in history. true one-man army.

Yes he is an exception but he also spoke about his work load. He played only 63 tests in total, pant has played 42 already at 27 years of age 

 

Add T20, leagues etc and you can see the workload on him is so much mrke than flowers

Edited January 3, 2025 by New guy

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, New guy said:

Yes he is an exception but he also spoke about his work load. He played only 63 tests in total, pant has played 42 already at 27 years of age 

he played only 63 tests because Zim didn't get many tests. he also played a fair no. of ODIs (200+ of them). Flower had an avg of 55 when batting at no. 5 and no. 6, which dropped quite significantly when he batted higher up.

 

In general, I do not approve of keepers batting any higher than no. 6 (barring rare exceptions), no matter how talented they are with the bat. it is just too much strain, especially in the modern era.

 

Pant should arguably bat at no. 6. with 2 ARs below him, there will be some batting to follow.

[New guy]

21 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he played only 63 tests because Zim didn't get many tests. he also played a fair no. of ODIs (200+ of them). Flower had an avg of 55 when batting at no. 5 and no. 6, which dropped quite significantly when he batted higher up.

 

In general, I do not approve of keepers batting any higher than no. 6 (barring rare exceptions), no matter how talented they are with the bat. it is just too much strain, especially in the modern era.

 

Pant should arguably bat at no. 6. with 2 ARs below him, there will be some batting to follow.

But is there any other keeper in history who matched Flower's feat? Ab and Sanga had to give up keeping to focus on batting

 

Comparing Pant to just a normal batsman after he kept all day is asnine.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, New guy said:

But is there any other keeper in history who matched Flower's feat? Ab and Sanga had to give up keeping to focus on batting

 

Comparing Pant to just a normal batsman after he kept all day is asnine.

That's why he should bat at no. 6 IMO

 

To answer your other question: no one. Likes of Walcott, Sanga, etc. avg > 50 only after giving up gloves. Flower was only regular keeper to have 50+ avg (as keeper) over a large sample size

[R!TTER]

How big of a sample size are you talking about 

Wicketkeeper as designated wicketkeeper

Qualifications scores of fifty or more greater than or equal to 10  and runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Avehttp://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/blackArrowDown.gif	100	50	0
AB de Villiers (SA)	2004-2015	24	39	3	2067	169	57.41	7	7	0
A Flower (ZIM)	1992-2002	55	100	18	4404	232*	53.70	12	23	4
AC Gilchrist (AUS)	1999-2008	96	137	20	5570	204*	47.60	17	26	14
LEG Ames (ENG)	1929-1939	44	67	12	2387	149	43.40	8	7	5
RR Pant (IND)	2018-2025	43	74	6	2879	159*	42.33	6	14	3
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2008	48	81	4	3117	230	40.48	7	11	4
MJ Prior (ENG)	2007-2014	79	123	21	4099	131*	40.18	7	28	13
Q de Kock (SA)	2014-2021	52	87	6	3250	141*	40.12	6	22	7
BJ Watling (NZ)	2012-2021	67	101	14	3398	205	39.05	7	18	9
MS Dhoni (IND)	2005-2014	90	144	16	4876	224	38.09	6	33	10
JM Bairstow (ENG)	2013-2023	55	96	6	3387	167*	37.63	5	18	10
Sarfaraz Ahmed (PAK)	2010-2023	54	95	14	3031	118	37.41	4	21	4

[rkt.india]

51 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he played only 63 tests because Zim didn't get many tests. he also played a fair no. of ODIs (200+ of them). Flower had an avg of 55 when batting at no. 5 and no. 6, which dropped quite significantly when he batted higher up.

 

In general, I do not approve of keepers batting any higher than no. 6 (barring rare exceptions), no matter how talented they are with the bat. it is just too much strain, especially in the modern era.

 

Pant should arguably bat at no. 6. with 2 ARs below him, there will be some batting to follow.

2000s saw some of the flattest pitches ever. So many batsmen averaged 50+ in that decade. Can't be compared with today.  You can easily add 5 runs in the average since WTC began.

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

How big of a sample size are you talking about 

Wicketkeeper as designated wicketkeeper

Qualifications scores of fifty or more greater than or equal to 10  and runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Avehttp://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/blackArrowDown.gif	100	50	0
AB de Villiers (SA)	2004-2015	24	39	3	2067	169	57.41	7	7	0
A Flower (ZIM)	1992-2002	55	100	18	4404	232*	53.70	12	23	4
AC Gilchrist (AUS)	1999-2008	96	137	20	5570	204*	47.60	17	26	14
LEG Ames (ENG)	1929-1939	44	67	12	2387	149	43.40	8	7	5
RR Pant (IND)	2018-2025	43	74	6	2879	159*	42.33	6	14	3
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2008	48	81	4	3117	230	40.48	7	11	4
MJ Prior (ENG)	2007-2014	79	123	21	4099	131*	40.18	7	28	13
Q de Kock (SA)	2014-2021	52	87	6	3250	141*	40.12	6	22	7
BJ Watling (NZ)	2012-2021	67	101	14	3398	205	39.05	7	18	9
MS Dhoni (IND)	2005-2014	90	144	16	4876	224	38.09	6	33	10
JM Bairstow (ENG)	2013-2023	55	96	6	3387	167*	37.63	5	18	10
Sarfaraz Ahmed (PAK)	2010-2023	54	95	14	3031	118	37.41	4	21	4

50+ innings. anything lower does not count IMO. I know ABDV did great, but he was used in initial career and then mostly in isolated spells later as keeper.

[Vijy]

Just now, rkt.india said:

2000s saw some of the flattest pitches ever. So many batsmen averaged 50+ in that decade. Can't be compared with today.  You can easily add 5 runs in the average since WTC began.

Flower had 55+ as keeper in the two major positions he played: nos. 5 and 6. You remove 5 runs, it is still 50+. It is damned impressive. Moreover, Flower's career was from 1992-2002. Only 2 years in the 2000s.

 

If you don't like Flower that's fine. But no need to resort to false statements to cheapen him.

[R!TTER]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

50+ innings.

Well that's arbitrary, he played as a specialist wk/bat in Eng & SA - arguably the 2 toughest places to keep+bat overall. India had flat tracks back then & he didn't play as well here, so that wouldn't count.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, R!TTER said:

Well that's arbitrary, he played as a specialist wk/bat in Eng & SA - arguably the 2 toughest places to keep+bat overall. India had flat tracks back then & he didn't play as well here, so that wouldn't count.

it's not arbitrary. I never liked the criterion of 20+ tests. adam voges has a 60+ avg after 20 tests. people should play more, since regression to the "correct" value will occur. Besides, no one would call ABDV the regular keeper of their team unlike Flower, Gilly, Ames, Pant, etc

Edited January 3, 2025 by Vijy

[R!TTER]

The reason SA didn't need that many innings is because they were so dominant that most matches ended early, aside from some weather interrupted games of course. Otherwise ABDV would've ended up with about 48 innings!

[R!TTER]

So yes 50 innings is arbitrary, a slightly better way is probably to count number of runs, innings & scores of 50+ in there.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

The reason SA didn't need that many innings is because they were so dominant that most matches ended early, aside from some weather interrupted games of course. Otherwise ABDV would've ended up with about 48 innings!

he kept in 24 tests. Almost no one plays 48 innings unless they are from Ban/Zim/Afg/etc. For a no. 5, a realistic prospect is about 40 innings, which is what he played. anyway, like I wrote, 20-ish tests is just too low in my book unless the players are from an era and country where very very few tests were played (like Merchant in the 30s).