Will Kohli retire as a top 5 Indian batter in tests?

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Texan said:

Sehwag >>> Kohli

 

In addition to what you have mentioned, the impact of Sehwag's innings was multifold. The breakneck pace at which he scored put the opposition bowlers on the backfoot and enabled MO batters to pile on the misery and provided ample time for our bowlers to bowl out opposition twice.

 

Second point that is largely ignored: Sehwag was one of the most destructive batters against spin that we have ever seen. It is a very underrated skill since it was assumed at the time that all Indian batsmen are good against spin.

 

But as we can see in recent Indian batsmen and Kohli in particular, many are inept at playing even low quality spinners like Ajaz Patel and Mitchell Santner. Sehwag had to deal with Warne, Murali and Saqlain and he dismantled all of them. His double hundred in  SL (Galle) was a gem. His triple hundred in Pak v/s Shoaib and Saqlain enabled us to win our first ever Test match in Pak in 50 years. His hammering of England in the 4th innings in India enabled us to chase a big total, which we struggled to do until then.

 

==

 

Laxman >>> Kohli

 

Here as well, Laxman is significantly superior in playing spin bowlers. I mean it is not even a comparison. Laxman also played many impactful innings with the tail in helping save/win matches.

 

Laxman had weaknesses while playing in swinging conditions, but so also does Kohli. We have not seen any batsman get out fishing ball outside 8th stump line as much as Kohli has. Also Laxman's average is affected due to being constantly shuttled up and down the order. As you have rightly pointed out, excluding his numbers as an opener, Laxman actually averages more than Kohli and he faced better quality bowlers.

 

 

 

Laxman scored over 2000 runs against ATG Australian side in the 1999-2008 period. Nobody has done that. Not even Sachin during this phase. Laxman actually failed mostly on flattish wickets where he could have easily statpadded. Because most of the runs were scored by top order and he had very little to do.

 

 

 

[The Hound]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

2002 Eng and 2003 Aus were flatties. 2001 SA he batted at 6 and that is not even a standard SA track which India faces today. No comparison in SENA between Kohli and Viru for me. Viru never made enough efforts to see off the new ball. That’s a basic requirement of a world class test opener. What he did in 2006 tour of SA was even worse and deservingly got dropped for 1.5 years.

Both of his hundreds in AUS came on pattas. Melbourne 2003 when AUS went on to score 500+ in their first innings and Adelaide 2008 which was a boring draw. 

[Vijy]

Just now, The Hound said:

Both of his hundreds in AUS came on pattas. Melbourne 2003 when AUS went on to score 500+ in their first innings and Adelaide 2008 which was a boring draw. 

Melbourne was not a patta - we had crappy bowling and Punter was in God mode back then. Look at how other Ind batters performed in that match.

 

Likewise, if Sehwag didn't make that 160-odd in Adelaide, we would have lost. In fact, at the time, it was rightly hailed as his greatest "defensive" innings.

[sensible-indian]

41 minutes ago, Vijy said:

not really, even if we exclude pre-WW2 openers. likes of Hutton, Gavaskar, Barry Richards (who I saw) are clearly superior to him. And there are some others who were as good, if not more, than him: boycott, graeme smith, hayden, etc. even sehwag, anwar, langer, etc ended up with comparable/better overall records.

 

Cook's 2011 ashes came on very flat pitches (Oz pitches were particularly flat in 2011-2016, as seen from everyone's inflated avgs), and we saw that he struggled in general vs pace + bounce. he was great in SC conditions for sure.

 

Technically speaking, even his 2012 exploits came cos Ashwin developed a technical problem so his accuracy went wayward.

 

These things happen for all cricketers.

 

But still it doesn't take away from what they were able to do.

Cook literally bullied the opponents in their own home across an entire series (Pujara style).

 

That's one hell of a body of work.

 

Ok maybe Prime Cook is not better than them but he is pretty solid and taking the whole package into account (mindset & skills), he is right up there.

Edited January 2, 2025 by sensible-indian

[Vijy]

Just now, sensible-indian said:

 

Technically speaking, even his 2012 exploits came cos Ashwin developed a technical problem so his accuracy went wayward.

 

These things happen.

 

Ok maybe Prime Cook is not better than them but he is pretty solid and taking the whole package into account (mindset & skills), he is right up there.

Haven't seen Hutton, but of the trio I wrote that were comfortably better than Cook, I did see Sunny and Barry. And I rate subprime Barry > prime Cook, that's how good he was. Of course, he only played 4 tests, but the man had everything - technique, shots, temperament, etc. In the 1970s, counties had great players from all over the world playing (e.g., WI, SA, Pak, Aus) and Barry had an avg of about 55 there.

[sensible-indian]

9 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Haven't seen Hutton, but of the trio I wrote that were comfortably better than Cook, I did see Sunny and Barry. And I rate subprime Barry > prime Cook, that's how good he was. Of course, he only played 4 tests, but the man had everything - technique, shots, temperament, etc. In the 1970s, counties had great players from all over the world playing (e.g., WI, SA, Pak, Aus) and Barry had an avg of about 55 there.

Barry was next level I heard.

 

I didn't know he was an opener.

 

He was a potential GOAT category bat who the world missed out on seeing, I heard.

 

Fair enough. Probably Cook was a level or two below them.

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Barry was next level I heard.

 

I didn't know he was an opener.

 

He was a potential GOAT category bat who the world missed out on seeing, I heard.

 

Fair enough. Probably Cook was a level or two below them.

Yes, Barry was an opener, though he could (and did) play in middle order too. that's why Don Bradman chose him in his all-time Test XI (across all teams) as an opener.

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, Lord said:

 

5 years is enough time. Only Ashwin averages less but has one more ton. Pant,Rohit,Axar,Jadeja all did better

 

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

In SA sure Kohli wins it. Overall considering the SR, Sehwag shades it imo. VVS is roughly equal as he has similar average despite batting down and many clutch knocks.

 

 

I think Kohli missed the England home series where pitches were very balanced. That would have helped him score runs for sure.

 

Also, if you remove SL, WI and BD, Jadeja’s avg will be lesser than Kohli.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=500;qualval1=runs;spanmin1=1+Jan+2020;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, The Hound said:

Both of his hundreds in AUS came on pattas. Melbourne 2003 when AUS went on to score 500+ in their first innings and Adelaide 2008 which was a boring draw. 

I am not gonna put one player down just to rate other player highly. At the same time, I can understand people have a dislike towards Kohli and that includes me too for hanging longer than expected.

 

But my only point would be that Viru and his other teammates did batted on better pitches in 2000s than Kohli has batted in this era and Kohli at his peak was superb.

 

Now, if people are willing to defend Viru in 2011 overseas by saying that he was past his prime then you could say the same about Kohli too in last few years.

 

In Asia, Viru is comfortably better and outside Asia, Kohli is comfortably better. I think Jaiswal is someone who might show better calibre of performance than Viru would do overseas and hence he may have a strong claim to be India’s next ATG opener or batsman but long way to go for it. I am making this point only because Sehwag’s record is simply unacceptable in SEN.

[Ultimate_Game]

6 minutes ago, Majestic said:

I think Kohli missed the England home series where pitches were very balanced. That would have helped him score runs for sure.

 

Also, if you remove SL, WI and BD, Jadeja’s avg will be lesser than Kohli.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=500;qualval1=runs;spanmin1=1+Jan+2020;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

We lucked out similar to BGT in 2020-21 that the "King" decided to take a break else we would've lost that series to similar to the recent NZ series at home. Shoaib Bashir would've made Kohli his b***h just like Moeen Ali, Santner and other spinners have  done in the recent past.

[Lord]

26 minutes ago, Majestic said:

I think Kohli missed the England home series where pitches were very balanced. That would have helped him score runs for sure.

 

Also, if you remove SL, WI and BD, Jadeja’s avg will be lesser than Kohli.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=500;qualval1=runs;spanmin1=1+Jan+2020;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

That's still 30 v 27. Not much of a difference.

[Majestic]

17 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

That's still 30 v 27. Not much of a difference.

Let’s talk about SENA performance of Indian batters.

 

kohli averages 42 while Sehwag averages 33. Kohli has arguably faced tougher bowlers in SENA conditions more than Sehwag did. Kohli has 12 tons in SENA while Sehwag has only 4.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;spanmax2=31+Dec+2100;spanmin2=01+Jan+2001;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

Edited January 2, 2025 by Majestic

[Majestic]

@Lord bhai, here are more interesting observations of performance in SENA for openers. The man who went on to say in Koffee with Karan that Kohli is a better batter than Tendulkar is above Viru as opener in SENA conditions with more tons.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=2;batting_positionmin1=1;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=31+Dec+2100;spanmin1=01+Jan+2001;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

I think Kohli missed the England home series where pitches were very balanced. That would have helped him score runs for sure.

 

Also, if you remove SL, WI and BD, Jadeja’s avg will be lesser than Kohli.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=500;qualval1=runs;spanmin1=1+Jan+2020;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

Don't remove SL/BD. Both are spin heavy, and we know that Kohli declined substantially in playing spin. All teams must be properly considered, if they have decent spinners or pacers - even WI has had decent pacers from the late 2010s onward.

 

Slicing and dicing stats through some narrow filter, one can prove that Kohli was better than Bradman - doesn't make it correct though.

Edited January 2, 2025 by Vijy

[Majestic]

7 hours ago, Vijy said:

Don't remove SL/BD. Both are spin heavy, and we know that Kohli declined substantially in playing spin. All teams must be properly considered, if they have decent spinners or pacers - even WI has had decent pacers from the late 2010s onward.

 

Slicing and dicing stats through some narrow filter, one can prove that Kohli was better than Bradman - doesn't make it correct though.

The pitches against SL were really flat and Jadeja got 175* inflating his stats against them.

 

If you watch Jadeja’s batting today also, my one concern with him is he usually bats slow, puts prize on his wicket but this very thing is required more in second inning and that’s where he gets out cheaply.

 

Look at today, 14(69) now and that’s exactly was needed of him in MCG 2nd inning. He somehow doesn’t have that match winning ability. Maybe Getting older just like Kohli now. 

Edited January 3, 2025 by Majestic

[Vijy]

Just now, Majestic said:

The pitches against SL were really flat and Jadeja got 175* inflating his stats against them.

 

If you watch Jadeja’s batting today also, my one concern with him is he usually bats slow, puts prize on his wicket but this very thing is required more in second inning and that’s where he gets out cheaply.

 

Look at today, 14(69) now and that’s exactly was needed of him in MCG 2nd inning.

it's not a lot different than kohli's 17. they are similar level batters for last 4-5 years, which is what most posters in this thread have been saying. I don't think this is a false equivalence, given how bad Kohli has been.

[New guy]

8 hours ago, Majestic said:

Let’s talk about SENA performance of Indian batters.

 

kohli averages 42 while Sehwag averages 33. Kohli has arguably faced tougher bowlers in SENA conditions more than Sehwag did. Kohli has 12 tons in SENA while Sehwag has only 4.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;spanmax2=31+Dec+2100;spanmin2=01+Jan+2001;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

Why are you comparing an opener with middle order bat?

 

Why are you comparing an all rounder with a middle order bat? 

[Majestic]

3 minutes ago, New guy said:

Why are you comparing an opener with middle order bat?

 

Why are you comparing an all rounder with a middle order bat? 

Sehwag was a tailender vs lateral movement. He had no quality which you expect of a world class test opener in conditions overseas as visible by his taielnderesque avg of 20,27,27 in SEN and that too when he thankfully played very less SENA games than what other Indians played.

[New guy]

7 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Sehwag was a tailender vs lateral movement. He had no quality which you expect of a world class test opener in conditions overseas as visible by his taielnderesque avg of 20,27,27 in SEN and that too when he thankfully played very less SENA games than what other Indians played.

He still was an opener and shouldnt he compared with no 4.

[Texan]

If Mankading became a term, I sincerely hope that Kohliing also becomes a term. This is the legacy Kohli can leave behind.