Looks like we finally broke Bumrah :(

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, Vijy said:

he is not a stock bowler. wish we had a strike bowler that is also a stock bowler. Some notable Test teams had at least one - McG, Walsh, Hadlee, etc.

You cannot make a billi into a sher, no matter how much you try.
To be a stock bowler, you need mustanda figure. All 3 are mustandaas. Walsh may look thin, but i have seen his other buddy Ambrose up close - the man is a giant just skinny giant - his wrists are still facking YUUGE and so walsh was more 'robust' than Amby and he is also built very tagraa in the mid section+ ass region.

 

Bumrah is not the ideal physique for a stock fast bowler because he does not generate pace via sheer muscle power + momentum, rather, by a weird slingshotty action that is more jerk and snap than flow and oomph.

To be a good stock bowler, you need easy pace, meaning easy repeatable action that isnt about jerk and snap, unless you are a spinner.

You also need a bowler who isnt a strong pivot bowler, like Akhtar+Waqar+ Malinga, because pivot action that is necessary for slingshot action also means too much sudden force on knee all the time and u have joint issues.

 

The bowlers you mentioned, they all had easy pace in the 135+ range - the range where if you need to be at minimum to succeed in test cricket as pace bowler.

 

come to think of it, we lack stock fast bowlers because we lack bowlers who can produce easy pace of 135+ because we lack bowlers who have the easy pace and easy repeatable action to be a stock bowler of good quality as stock bowlers but have them thrust in strike bowler roles.
 

Only Kapil + Srinath come to mind for Indian bowlers who were good enough to generate decent pace from easy repeatable actions, though srinaths for first half of his career was too side on prone to error in line and length due to his extra side on extreme pace style.

 

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, Vijy said:

ICT broke Bumrah - perhaps. But his bowling action (specifically runup) is a bit of a menace to himself. Cummins bowled more overs per innings than Bumrah (remember our 2nd innings of Gabba virtually didn't happen), and he has been doing well.

 

Likely that Bumrah will retire from Tests in a couple of yrs from now.

 

3 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

What we were so afraid of finally seems to have happened. Make no mistake this is all on that doofus Rohit who continued to overbowl Bumrah while claiming "we're monitoring Bumrah's workload" 

 

Bumrah is the MVP who has kept India relevant, and if it's a serious injury it may very well hasten the end of Bumrah. Last time Bumrah was injured he was away for almost a year and now he's in his early 30s, it may be longer. If there's no Bumrah no point in even going to CT especially if Kohli and Rohit are going to be around. Plus it'll impact our defense of WT20 next year along with the only decent shot at WTC next cycle with Rohit and Kohli finally on the way out.

 

Wish that piece of shyte Rohit hadn't come to Aus at all 

Rohit did break Bumrah.

Issue isnt just the number of overs, issue is deployment. Bumrah is not a rotational bowler. he is not someone who will bowl 5 overs over an hour, then take an hour off and come back bowl another 5 overs for another hour.

He has the same deployment limitations of  Shoaib Akhtar , but wihle for Shoaib Akhtar it was just pure he was a fatty party animal, while for Bumrah its just limitation of his action and physique combined - you cannot have a tortional action like bumrah and yet be built like bumrah and bowl with decent energy conservation, meaning letting momentum do a lot of the work like big strong fast bowlers do for their stock ball. you have to add extra oomph to your ball like a Waqar or an Akhtar and it requires energy.

With Bumrah's build + his actin type, if you wish to rotate him as a rotational strike bowler, you have to break his spells up into 3-4 over spells max and then do the whole 'bumrah bowls + bumrah rests an hour + bumrah bowls' rotation.

I just hope its not a stress fracture and is just muscle related, which means he will be good to go in a few weeks.

The man India is actully missing in all this, is Shami. Wish he has a last hurrah left in his career and comes back for a couple more years, since that will massively take the match pressure off of bumrah and give him some brething room in terms of deployment

 

Edited January 4, 2025 by Muloghonto

[MechEng]

26 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

You cannot make a billi into a sher, no matter how much you try.
To be a stock bowler, you need mustanda figure. All 3 are mustandaas. Walsh may look thin, but i have seen his other buddy Ambrose up close - the man is a giant just skinny giant - his wrists are still facking YUUGE and so walsh was more 'robust' than Amby and he is also built very tagraa in the mid section+ ass region.

 

Bumrah is not the ideal physique for a stock fast bowler because he does not generate pace via sheer muscle power + momentum, rather, by a weird slingshotty action that is more jerk and snap than flow and oomph.

To be a good stock bowler, you need easy pace, meaning easy repeatable action that isnt about jerk and snap, unless you are a spinner.

 

 

What are you saying? Bumrah gets all his pace from his back and shoulder strength.

 

There are 'mustanda' bowlers like Tremlett who lost pace with more muscle.

 

Fast bowling biomechanics is very complex as there is no one way of bowling fast. You have skinny folks like Sami, Amir from 2010 and Ishant from 2008 clocking 150 kph without stress fractures, and they didn't look anything like gym goers.

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

What are you saying? Bumrah gets all his pace from his back and shoulder strength.

 

There are 'mustanda' bowlers like Tremlett who lost pace with more muscle.

 

Fast bowling biomechanics is very complex as there is no one way of bowling fast. You have skinny folks like Sami, Amir from 2010 and Ishant from 2008 clocking 150 kph without stress fractures, and they didn't look anything like gym goers.

Yes, but his strength is produced by a snap+jerk motion, not a seamless momentum transfer motion like standard stock bowler. His mechanism of power generation is through stress pivots. Which means his mucles are always going 0-100 for his deliveries, to use a not so accurate but good enough analogy. he is not the guy who is generating easy pace like Holding or raw pace like Cummins from just running in hard and rolling his arms over.

Yes, fast bowling mechanics is very complex. which is why fast bowlers are very complex. Bumrah is a ferrari. he is not your Mustang or your Cadillac to be used on lambaa safar. Reason for that is his action, which in this context, is because bumrah is not a big strong bowler like Holding or Cummins to just run in at good clip for 20m, roll over his arms and make 140kph. For him to do it, he has his weird action, which works like a hot damn in terms of actual bowling physics of it - i dont think anyone has done as much with the ball as Bumrah WHILE having as much control as Bumrah is why he is so successful - is also its great negative in terms of being standard good stock bowler candidate or great bowler filling in as stock bowler coz he is built 6'3 and weighs 25% more than bumrah in pure muscle and can just run in hard, roll over arms and get boom 140.

Those are the kind of bowlers you want as stock bowler coz they can generate good pace with good repetable action and without getting worn out with high durtion use.

 

What Kohli is trying to do, is drive  Ferrari across the USA and back like a good ol venture capialist car of the 70s and rack up 500K in 2 years flat. No bueno. Thats how you kill a Ferarri. And so do you Bumrah.

 

[Number]

37 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Rohit did break Bumrah.

Issue isnt just the number of overs, issue is deployment. Bumrah is not a rotational bowler. he is not someone who will bowl 5 overs over an hour, then take an hour off and come back bowl another 5 overs for another hour.

He has the same deployment limitations of  Shoaib Akhtar , but wihle for Shoaib Akhtar it was just pure he was a fatty party animal, while for Bumrah its just limitation of his action and physique combined - you cannot have a tortional action like bumrah and yet be built like bumrah and bowl with decent energy conservation, meaning letting momentum do a lot of the work like big strong fast bowlers do for their stock ball. you have to add extra oomph to your ball like a Waqar or an Akhtar and it requires energy.

With Bumrah's build + his actin type, if you wish to rotate him as a rotational strike bowler, you have to break his spells up into 3-4 over spells max and then do the whole 'bumrah bowls + bumrah rests an hour + bumrah bowls' rotation.

I just hope its not a stress fracture and is just muscle related, which means he will be good to go in a few weeks.

The man India is actully missing in all this, is Shami. Wish he has a last hurrah left in his career and comes back for a couple more years, since that will massively take the match pressure off of bumrah and give him some brething room in terms of deployment

 

Prasid said Bumrah had a back spasm.

[MechEng]

27 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes, but his strength is produced by a snap+jerk motion, not a seamless momentum transfer motion like standard stock bowler. His mechanism of power generation is through stress pivots. Which means his mucles are always going 0-100 for his deliveries, to use a not so accurate but good enough analogy. he is not the guy who is generating easy pace like Holding or raw pace like Cummins from just running in hard and rolling his arms over.

Yes, fast bowling mechanics is very complex. which is why fast bowlers are very complex. Bumrah is a ferrari. he is not your Mustang or your Cadillac to be used on lambaa safar. Reason for that is his action, which in this context, is because bumrah is not a big strong bowler like Holding or Cummins to just run in at good clip for 20m, roll over his arms and make 140kph. For him to do it, he has his weird action, which works like a hot damn in terms of actual bowling physics of it - i dont think anyone has done as much with the ball as Bumrah WHILE having as much control as Bumrah is why he is so successful - is also its great negative in terms of being standard good stock bowler candidate or great bowler filling in as stock bowler coz he is built 6'3 and weighs 25% more than bumrah in pure muscle and can just run in hard, roll over arms and get boom 140.

Those are the kind of bowlers you want as stock bowler coz they can generate good pace with good repetable action and without getting worn out with high durtion use.

 

What Kohli is trying to do, is drive  Ferrari across the USA and back like a good ol venture capialist car of the 70s and rack up 500K in 2 years flat. No bueno. Thats how you kill a Ferarri. And so do you Bumrah.

 

 

Cummins and Holding too are not your typical stock bowlers. 

 

A typical stock bowler in general averages at around 83-85 mph, not more than that. Siddle is a classic example of a stock bowler who used to bowl very long spells under punishing heat but maintained pressure by reducing run scoring opportunities.

 

Walsh was a stock bowler but not exactly fast, he could generate awkward bounce and compensated it for his lack of pace.

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

Cummins and Holding too are not your typical stock bowlers. 

 

A typical stock bowler in general averages at around 83-85 mph, not more than that. Siddle is a classic example of a stock bowler who used to bowl very long spells under punishing heat but maintained pressure by reducing run scoring opportunities.

 

Walsh was a stock bowler but not exactly fast, he could generate awkward bounce and compensated it for his lack of pace.

 

Umm, Walsh didnt lack pace till he got to be 35+ guy- prior to that, he was always a healthy 130-135kph range dude, much like McG most of his career.

Siddle is a lesser version of a stock bowler, i am simply giving examples of not just standard stock bowlers but bowlers of all levels who have satisfied stock bowler criteria, particularly great bowlers who have also done stock duty.

But yes, you are correct, Siddle also bowled long spells though Siddle didnt have as much easy pace, he still had enough to keep you honest and do damage if u tried to take too many liberties with his bowling.

 

[Vijy]

5 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Rohit did break Bumrah.

Issue isnt just the number of overs, issue is deployment. Bumrah is not a rotational bowler. he is not someone who will bowl 5 overs over an hour, then take an hour off and come back bowl another 5 overs for another hour.

He has the same deployment limitations of  Shoaib Akhtar , but wihle for Shoaib Akhtar it was just pure he was a fatty party animal, while for Bumrah its just limitation of his action and physique combined - you cannot have a tortional action like bumrah and yet be built like bumrah and bowl with decent energy conservation, meaning letting momentum do a lot of the work like big strong fast bowlers do for their stock ball. you have to add extra oomph to your ball like a Waqar or an Akhtar and it requires energy.

With Bumrah's build + his actin type, if you wish to rotate him as a rotational strike bowler, you have to break his spells up into 3-4 over spells max and then do the whole 'bumrah bowls + bumrah rests an hour + bumrah bowls' rotation.

I just hope its not a stress fracture and is just muscle related, which means he will be good to go in a few weeks.

The man India is actully missing in all this, is Shami. Wish he has a last hurrah left in his career and comes back for a couple more years, since that will massively take the match pressure off of bumrah and give him some brething room in terms of deployment

 

Shami is 40+ in terms of his real age potentially. I don't think he will be back for a long stint, if at all.

[Arvind32]

5 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

You cannot make a billi into a sher, no matter how much you try.
To be a stock bowler, you need mustanda figure. All 3 are mustandaas. Walsh may look thin, but i have seen his other buddy Ambrose up close - the man is a giant just skinny giant - his wrists are still facking YUUGE and so walsh was more 'robust' than Amby and he is also built very tagraa in the mid section+ ass region.

 

Bumrah is not the ideal physique for a stock fast bowler because he does not generate pace via sheer muscle power + momentum, rather, by a weird slingshotty action that is more jerk and snap than flow and oomph.

To be a good stock bowler, you need easy pace, meaning easy repeatable action that isnt about jerk and snap, unless you are a spinner.

You also need a bowler who isnt a strong pivot bowler, like Akhtar+Waqar+ Malinga, because pivot action that is necessary for slingshot action also means too much sudden force on knee all the time and u have joint issues.

 

The bowlers you mentioned, they all had easy pace in the 135+ range - the range where if you need to be at minimum to succeed in test cricket as pace bowler.

 

come to think of it, we lack stock fast bowlers because we lack bowlers who can produce easy pace of 135+ because we lack bowlers who have the easy pace and easy repeatable action to be a stock bowler of good quality as stock bowlers but have them thrust in strike bowler roles.
 

Only Kapil + Srinath come to mind for Indian bowlers who were good enough to generate decent pace from easy repeatable actions, though srinaths for first half of his career was too side on prone to error in line and length due to his extra side on extreme pace style.

 

Our bucket is full of easy to bowl 135 type bowlers . You will find them any state and association . I can name you obvious one and others are everywhere - Akaashdeep , Prashid , Bhuvi , Shami ,Arashderp , Khallel etc . 
 

injury can happen to anyone . Bumrah is giant of person to bowling at that sped . Actually he has the capacity to bowl 140 plus on regular basis . There is nothing wrong with his action . That's how he is build and suited to him . He is bowling with this action for more than 10-12 years . That's a long period . 
 

In essence , we need to properly groom bowlers like Tyagi , Gurnoor , and  Kuldeep sen , J and K pacer or anyone comes with bit of different edge rather than persisting with aged Shami or trundlers Akaashdeep . 

 

[Lord]

[Ultimate_Game]

10 hours ago, Vijy said:

it is a bit sad that our strike bowler cannot bowl 20-ish overs per innings on average, but it is what it is. Cannot expect for Aus-tier fitness from him. He is an Old Man with a Broken Back.

 

It's due to his unique bowling action and the injuries he's had over the years (stress fractures). Bumrah's not the type to bowl longish spells. He should be treated as a strike bowler and given spells of no more than 4-5 overs, and max 15-16 overs a day. Unfortunately BCCI and team management never got it. Expecting Rohit to do so is not realistic as the guy's a buffoon.

[Ultimate_Game]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

In the 4th test, Bumrah was made to bowl throughout the innings without any rest by Rohit.

 

It was stupid, greedy and selfish from Captain Rohit. 

 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Vickydev said:

Maybe not the numbers of overs but the frequency of the overs might have led to this

 

That MCG 1st innings and not enough rest between innings is the reason for the injury. Not all 22 overs in an innings are the same. A bowler can bowl 22 overs in 3-4 spells given appropriate rest. But Bumrah was bowled in long spells continuously by Rohit. At one stage Bumrah was so tired he couldn't bowl anymore. And as the innings went on, he became more and more ineffective.

 

This is all on Rohit - the gift which gives on giving.

[Lord]

 

[lemsip]

India won at the Gabba without Bumrah and can do so here as well. In fact, defending the total on a very helpful surface makes every seamer much more dangerous than they normally are. This is what happened with Reddy getting alarming lift off a length. If the bowlers can keep diiscipline and control, this is the kind of pitch that you can bowl magic wicket taking deliveries without relying on high level skill like Bumrah has. Just need a leader who can keep the sometimes inconsistent bowling attack disciplined if they lose control and it will be fine. Of course if Bumrah can bowl then great but the team should think positively on how to get the batsmen out not about Bumrah. Of course if he is available then nothing like it.

[Muloghonto]

5 hours ago, Arvind32 said:

Our bucket is full of easy to bowl 135 type bowlers . You will find them any state and association . I can name you obvious one and others are everywhere - Akaashdeep , Prashid , Bhuvi , Shami ,Arashderp , Khallel etc . 
 

injury can happen to anyone . Bumrah is giant of person to bowling at that sped . Actually he has the capacity to bowl 140 plus on regular basis . There is nothing wrong with his action . That's how he is build and suited to him . He is bowling with this action for more than 10-12 years . That's a long period . 
 

In essence , we need to properly groom bowlers like Tyagi , Gurnoor , and  Kuldeep sen , J and K pacer or anyone comes with bit of different edge rather than persisting with aged Shami or trundlers Akaashdeep . 

 

First off, Bhuvi, Prasidh, Arshdeep are not 135kph bowlers, they are all 125-135 kph bowlers, meaning very few of their balls even make it to 135kph.

Secondly, you are not understanding what i am saying. I am not saying Bumrah's action sucks or its the FAULT of Bumrans action, i am simply saying that his action, like every action, has its pros and cons.

With his action, Bumrah does more with the ball in terms of movement & bounc at more control than anyone else ever has. He moves the ball more than McGrath or Ambrose did, as much as  a peak Donald, but with far more control than Donald and at almost McGrath-Ambrose level.

So clearly his action, from a pure bowling perspective, is AMAZING for producing the result no one else ever has.

But at the same time, his action is also a jerky action, where there is a lot of jhatkaa in the deliery motion. Such an action is ALSO not the action u want when u want to bowl 6 overs straight, take 1 hour off and bowl another 6 overs straight.
Because that is too frequent jhatkaas to the body.

 

 

[Vijy]

4 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

It's due to his unique bowling action and the injuries he's had over the years (stress fractures). Bumrah's not the type to bowl longish spells. He should be treated as a strike bowler and given spells of no more than 4-5 overs, and max 15-16 overs a day. Unfortunately BCCI and team management never got it. Expecting Rohit to do so is not realistic as the guy's a buffoon.

Looks like a balloon, thinks like a buffoon

[Arvind32]

57 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

First off, Bhuvi, Prasidh, Arshdeep are not 135kph bowlers, they are all 125-135 kph bowlers, meaning very few of their balls even make it to 135kph.

Secondly, you are not understanding what i am saying. I am not saying Bumrah's action sucks or its the FAULT of Bumrans action, i am simply saying that his action, like every action, has its pros and cons.

With his action, Bumrah does more with the ball in terms of movement & bounc at more control than anyone else ever has. He moves the ball more than McGrath or Ambrose did, as much as  a peak Donald, but with far more control than Donald and at almost McGrath-Ambrose level.

So clearly his action, from a pure bowling perspective, is AMAZING for producing the result no one else ever has.

But at the same time, his action is also a jerky action, where there is a lot of jhatkaa in the deliery motion. Such an action is ALSO not the action u want when u want to bowl 6 overs straight, take 1 hour off and bowl another 6 overs straight.
Because that is too frequent jhatkaas to the body.

 

 

Firstly , I just give you just an example of  so many pacers we have at 135 category . Bhuvi is bit different but all other regularly go over 135 plus . Prasidh is more of 135 to 142 type bowler . There are many more who can easily doing it . This is an not area   Where Indian cricket have to worry too much .
 

Secondly , he is unique and so far did pretty well over the years with work load . He is ok to do with 1-2 test matches on straight to bowl long spells but not in 4-5 test match series where he only had 2 day break in between tests . Even Akaashdeep  has similar problems due to over work load in last test match . 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Arvind32 said:

Firstly , I just give you just an example of  so many pacers we have at 135 category . Bhuvi is bit different but all other regularly go over 135 plus . Prasidh is more of 135 to 142 type bowler . There are many more who can easily doing it . This is an not area   Where Indian cricket have to worry too much .
 

Secondly , he is unique and so far did pretty well over the years with work load . He is ok to do with 1-2 test matches on straight to bowl long spells but not in 4-5 test match series where he only had 2 day break in between tests . Even Akaashdeep  has similar problems due to over work load in last test match . 

MOST of them are not 135kph bowlers, Bhuvi very rarely bowled above 130-131 and mostly in the high 120s.

Prasidh hasnt even bowled a single ball that is 137 and mostly bowls 130-133 range.

 

Bumrah is not a rotational bowler unless u wanna use him in short Shoaib Akhtar like spells for 3 over stints. That is the drawback of his action - it is too jerky to be repeated till the point of exhaustion continuously and not get injured.

This is just how human bodies work - if you have a smooth running motion, you can run till your legs ache and next day u will fine. If you have a jerky running motion, if you keep running till your legs ache every single day, you will rip or tear something soon because jerking muscles to the point of muscle exhaustion = good way to rip that muscle up.

 

[Arvind32]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

MOST of them are not 135kph bowlers, Bhuvi very rarely bowled above 130-131 and mostly in the high 120s.

Prasidh hasnt even bowled a single ball that is 137 and mostly bowls 130-133 range.

 

Bumrah is not a rotational bowler unless u wanna use him in short Shoaib Akhtar like spells for 3 over stints. That is the drawback of his action - it is too jerky to be repeated till the point of exhaustion continuously and not get injured.

This is just how human bodies work - if you have a smooth running motion, you can run till your legs ache and next day u will fine. If you have a jerky running motion, if you keep running till your legs ache every single day, you will rip or tear something soon because jerking muscles to the point of muscle exhaustion = good way to rip that muscle up.

 

Have you checked Prasidh speed yesterday? Most of the time he was around 140 and some of his deliveries were touching 142 . Mostly Prasidh is around 145 type of bowler . There were more like around India with smooth action. Unfortunately we do not need those type of bowlers . We need bowlers who have unique edge like Bumrah or Nasser Shah kind of. 
 

Yes  agree with it . With smooth action it may be easier on body . But  smoiotg action hardly had any edge over sophisticated. actions . We need good output rather than smooth actions . 

[vignesh12345]

If Bumrah dares to bowl tomorrow, his medium paced swing bowling will get hammered by Konstas and Head. And I will celebrate when it happens.