Curious case of Waqar's career - avg 18 in first 32 tests and avg 28 in next 55

[MechEng]

29 minutes ago, New guy said:

Again, how is 14 matches proof of any devastating period? If a bowler was not devastating for 85% of his career, can he be classified as devastating? 

 

In that 14 matches he still sucked against India and Australia, so in total he was devastating for around 8 matches.

 

 

Let's not fuss over stats all the time, Bond just played 18 tests, yet we still remember him even today right? Ishant Sharma bowled that great spell to Ponting, if someone just saw the scorecard, they would wonder what's so good about that spell.

 

You just need to watch his bowling spells from early 90s to actually understand the hype he deserves.

[Muloghonto]

11 hours ago, First class said:

Bumbra is very good bowler and truly on its way to a possible AGB, depending on his longevity and the form , but not there yet. He is not at Waqar's level, yet, but might make it to that level. I would pick Waqar ahead of Wasim in my 11. 

 

Extreme pace, accuracy and swing , and the most rhythmic and beautiful action of all time, that was Waqar Younis , 

 

 

Waqar ahead of wasim is like Rohit ahead of sehwag. Waqar always got smashed by good batting teams. Man could never dominate good teams and Waqar at his peak is far worse than bumrah. Numbers don't lie 

[Adamant]

8 hours ago, New guy said:

The goal post was earlier 200 wickets in total to be an ATG, once bumrah crossed 200, now goal post is 250 wickets. Once he crosses 250, goal post will be moved to 300 or 350 wickets. 

And what do i get by shifting goalposts here?

 

Bumrah is Indias best ever bowler and I want him to end up as a GOAT. A criteria of 250 wkts isn’t that high and tbh it’s applied to most of the pacers.

 

No one calls Bond, Asif or Harris an ATG, Bumrah is definitely ahead but things can still go south, one injury and a 5kph more reduction in pace and Bumrah might find it hard to maintain his stats. Injuries can curb pacers quality.

[singhvivek141]

5 hours ago, the don said:

Lol sir. Look at him touching 90 mph and consistely bowling 87-88 mph even tho he had lost all his pace. Compare that to the speeds of current bowlers.

 

Waqar has clocked 142.6 kph in 2003 WC as well, so hitting 90mph 2 years back isnt out of equation.

 

Main question perhaps is if Waqar is really an ATG ? Which I don't think he is.

Averaged 40 in Australia, 70 in India, these are bad numbers. 

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, First class said:

Very few bowler in history, than Waqar,  would create that much excitement and buzz among the spectators when bowling his thunderbolts . Not just me , many believes the speed guns in those days were not very accurate and were showing lower speed compared to the modern ones. Just look at the famous speed competition held in Australia where Thompson's fastest delivery clocked 147, Holding was 2nd with 141 kmp and Imran 3rd at 139 kmh,. And all the ATG fast bowlers like Lillie , Roberts and many more in low 130's , no way. Thomo, Holding and IK, in those days were 150 plus bowlers, Particularly Thomo and Holding .

 

Waqar also suffered significantly later in his career due to Wasim Akram's captaincy. I use to play in the same club as Wasim Akram ( P&T club , Lahore ) and knew the internal stories . Wasim was always jealous of Waqar, as many thought Waqar was better than him . He dropped Waqar , when he was still very good and played him rarely, hence Waqar's form and rhythm suffered by a great deal and his average . Even in the important tour of India in 1999, Waqar was warming the benches. Yes Shoaib just emerged as the new sensation but Waqar was certainly better than the likes of Azhar Mehmood and Ata-ur Rehaman . 

Internal conflicts has always been a part and parcel of competitive cricket. I don't think any team ever has avoided that.

 

But fact is, at the end numbers matter. People don't rate Kapil higher in Test allrounders amongst Fab 4 coz his numbers aren't good, no one gives a damn about how he was carrying bowling alone for ages or how he played like a champ against the best team of the era. 

 

Waqar was always lucky to have a partner like Wasim, the duo can simply keep the pressure on and for major times they even had a serviceable third pacer along with top class spinners. Yet, his inability to excel in all conditions and oppositions won't propel him as an ATG.

[singhvivek141]

11 minutes ago, Adamant said:

And what do i get by shifting goalposts here?

 

Bumrah is Indias best ever bowler and I want him to end up as a GOAT. A criteria of 250 wkts isn’t that high and tbh it’s applied to most of the pacers.

 

No one calls Bond, Asif or Harris an ATG, Bumrah is definitely ahead but things can still go south, one injury and a 5kph more reduction in pace and Bumrah might find it hard to maintain his stats. Injuries can curb pacers quality.

200 wkts is a big milestone bro. Even the legendary Jeff Thompson has exactly 200 wickets and he is an Australian Great.

[deathmonger]

22 minutes ago, Adamant said:

And what do i get by shifting goalposts here?

 

Bumrah is Indias best ever bowler and I want him to end up as a GOAT. A criteria of 250 wkts isn’t that high and tbh it’s applied to most of the pacers.

 

No one calls Bond, Asif or Harris an ATG, Bumrah is definitely ahead but things can still go south, one injury and a 5kph more reduction in pace and Bumrah might find it hard to maintain his stats. Injuries can curb pacers quality.

Those 3 don't have 200

[First class]

 

 

[Muloghonto]

27 minutes ago, Adamant said:

And what do i get by shifting goalposts here?

 

Bumrah is Indias best ever bowler and I want him to end up as a GOAT. A criteria of 250 wkts isn’t that high and tbh it’s applied to most of the pacers.

 

No one calls Bond, Asif or Harris an ATG, Bumrah is definitely ahead but things can still go south, one injury and a 5kph more reduction in pace and Bumrah might find it hard to maintain his stats. Injuries can curb pacers quality.

Maintaining his stats would make him greatest bowler ever. So he doesn't need to maintain stats to be atg.  He just needs to not average 30 for rest of his career and he is assured to end as atg. And already far ahead of wasim and Waqar given that neither dominated good batting sides anywhere as much as bumrah. Right now his only competition are McGrath. Ambrose and Marshall for position amongst pacers. 

[First class]

I think most of the posters here are young and were not old enough to follow cricket live during Waqar's era and they look Waqar only through stats and records and some stories by some biased and jealous people ( for obvious reason ) . But the fact of the matter is that during Waqar era, there was NO other bowler who was more feared by the many ATG batsmen from every country . He was a rock start and every young fast bowler used to copy him. His bowling video use to ( and still ) be shown in many cricket coaching center in UK and Australia . He faced one of the all time great batmen including Ponting, Lara, Tendulkar, Haydens , Kallis , . No other bowler even Wasim , except Marshall would come close to him in those days .  

[First class]

Usain Bolt about Waqar Younis , 

Take a moment and watch this , if you still doubt about Waqar's greatness.

 

 

[raki05]

9 hours ago, New guy said:

The goal post was earlier 200 wickets in total to be an ATG, once bumrah crossed 200, now goal post is 250 wickets. Once he crosses 250, goal post will be moved to 300 or 350 wickets. 

Anything to make lulli greatest cricketer of this generation ,suddenly kohli fan became insecure that now everybody is singing praise for bumrah. Bumrah is the greatest cricketer of this generation and already in goat contention.

[raki05]

6 hours ago, the don said:

Lol sir. Look at him touching 90 mph and consistely bowling 87-88 mph even tho he had lost all his pace. Compare that to the speeds of current bowlers.

 

Lol consistently… he is bowling more of 84-85 mile avg same as bhuvi bhaiya used to do. Bhuvi also used to touch 90 miles per hour on few balls. After 2 stress fracture already bumrah was bowling 91 mph to uproot pope, stokes and root in India so shall we assume before his 2 back injuries he was 100 mph bowler.

[raki05]

Lol As if usain bolt is expert in cricket…. Recently Vidya Balan and Farhan Akhtar was raving about Rohit Sharma so rohit sharma is greatest sports star. Even after 10 years down the line if you hear some of the internation commentators commentary for rohit sharma batting while in full flow you will think he was goat in loi with 3 double handed and highest six hitters. These nostalgic video posting by dellusional pakistani is quite amusing. There is one pakistani saying Imran Khan was 150 bowler lol i doubt he even bowled a single bowl around 145 in his life time, only thing he was great at marrying young girls half of his age .

Edited January 12, 2025 by raki05

[Adamant]

1 hour ago, raki05 said:

Anything to make lulli greatest cricketer of this generation ,suddenly kohli fan became insecure that now everybody is singing praise for bumrah. Bumrah is the greatest cricketer of this generation and already in goat contention.

No one is calling Kohli the greatest cricketer, even as a batsman Smith is superior.

 

Why are you getting so defensive? Do you think Bumrah won’t get to 250 wkts, also if someone has a longevity criteria pf around 250 wkts then what’s wrong with that.

 

Bumrah will definitely go past 250, and that will be enough, what are you scared of?

[Adamant]

@raki05 @Muloghonto  @Majestic
Shoaib Akhtar has 178 wkts in test at an avg of 25, but people don’t rate him high cos of the wickets tally. No one rates him on par With even Kapil Dev who took 434 at 29.4 average. Now tell me what’s wrong in that? I am quite sure if Akhtar would have taken 250 Wkts people would have rated him higher because of the massive difference in average and str rate.

 

A sample space of 250 is actually a good criteria.

 

 

[Majestic]

3 hours ago, Adamant said:

@raki05 @Muloghonto  @Majestic
Shoaib Akhtar has 178 wkts in test at an avg of 25, but people don’t rate him high cos of the wickets tally. No one rates him on par With even Kapil Dev who took 434 at 29.4 average. Now tell me what’s wrong in that? I am quite sure if Akhtar would have taken 250 Wkts people would have rated him higher because of the massive difference in average and str rate.

 

A sample space of 250 is actually a good criteria.

 

 

There is nothing like 250 as a criteria.

 

For ATG, he has all boxes ticked with 205 wickets at 19 out of which 171 of them coming vs top 4 opponents. To be a top 5 level bowler, he would need 300+ wickets. Even 250 shouldn’t do it because that would be reached with 10-12 test more. 55 tests is not a top 5 fast bowler material.

Edited January 12, 2025 by Majestic

[First class]

 

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, Adamant said:

@raki05 @Muloghonto  @Majestic
Shoaib Akhtar has 178 wkts in test at an avg of 25, but people don’t rate him high cos of the wickets tally. No one rates him on par With even Kapil Dev who took 434 at 29.4 average. Now tell me what’s wrong in that? I am quite sure if Akhtar would have taken 250 Wkts people would have rated him higher because of the massive difference in average and str rate.

 

A sample space of 250 is actually a good criteria.

 

 

 

A big reason is Kapil was a dominant force against the best batting team of his time, which also happened to be one of the top 3 batting units ever fielded in history - kapil averages 22-23 with the ball vs west indies while taking nearly 4 wickets/match rate. Actor on the other hand, shat the bed against the aussies or any batting team worth repute.

The reason Bumrah gets rated so highly despite low wicket count, is because they QUALITY of his wickets. When you take 200 wickets, but 150 of them are against the top 3-4 batting sides of your time with an average of 20, while you bash minnows for another 50 wickets for an average of 12 to end up with 200 wickets @ 18, its HELLUVA lot more meaningful than an Actor or a Waqar, who took the same 200 wickets but in reverse fashion - 150 at 15-16 against **** minnows and 50 @ 23-24 against top teams to yeild 200  @ 19

 

This is why no other pace bowler entered the best bowler ever discussion at 200 wickets since McGrath and why Cummins, Rabada, Starc etc are not being talked the same way yet. coz quality of wickets matter and by quality of wickets, pretty much the only peers Bumrah has are Marshall, Ambrose and McGrath, who at the same 200 wicket mark did the whole thing of 'most of my wickets are top order wickets against top 3 teams, not massive hauls against bottomfeeder teams and beating the hell outta the lower order like Akram did.

 

Bumrah, McGrath, Donald, Marshall - these are the only 4 names i can think of who have been talked of in the ATG terms by the time they took 200 wickets. No one else.

 

[First class]

51 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

A big reason is Kapil was a dominant force against the best batting team of his time, which also happened to be one of the top 3 batting units ever fielded in history - kapil averages 22-23 with the ball vs west indies while taking nearly 4 wickets/match rate. Actor on the other hand, shat the bed against the aussies or any batting team worth repute.

The reason Bumrah gets rated so highly despite low wicket count, is because they QUALITY of his wickets. When you take 200 wickets, but 150 of them are against the top 3-4 batting sides of your time with an average of 20, while you bash minnows for another 50 wickets for an average of 12 to end up with 200 wickets @ 18, its HELLUVA lot more meaningful than an Actor or a Waqar, who took the same 200 wickets but in reverse fashion - 150 at 15-16 against **** minnows and 50 @ 23-24 against top teams to yeild 200  @ 19

 

This is why no other pace bowler entered the best bowler ever discussion at 200 wickets since McGrath and why Cummins, Rabada, Starc etc are not being talked the same way yet. coz quality of wickets matter and by quality of wickets, pretty much the only peers Bumrah has are Marshall, Ambrose and McGrath, who at the same 200 wicket mark did the whole thing of 'most of my wickets are top order wickets against top 3 teams, not massive hauls against bottomfeeder teams and beating the hell outta the lower order like Akram did.

 

Bumrah, McGrath, Donald, Marshall - these are the only 4 names i can think of who have been talked of in the ATG terms by the time they took 200 wickets. No one else.

 

Now don;t give me that B-- " quality of batsmen" . We all know quality of batters in Waqar era was way more better than the current era . The quality of batters in those days like Lara, Kallis, Gooch, Gower, Pontings , Hayden, we don;t see in Bumrah's era.