zen Posted January 23 Posted January 23 (edited) Bollywood fans recall Mani Ratnam for his 3 90s films with the theme of love and terrorism: * Roja (1992, Hindi dubbed) * Bombay (1995, Hindi dubbed) * Dil Se (1998, Hindi) The three films have a common structure where they begin as love stories (arranged marriage set up or pursuit of love where applicable) and then turn into characters being embroiled in a terrorist related (or communal violence which can be seen as a form of terrorism) situation. All the three films have memorable score by ARR. The cinematography of Roja and Dil Se is by Santos Sivan, while Bombay's is by Rajiv Menon. Therefore, both Roja and Dil Se carry a similar visual stamp. Roja works as a relatively simple film. The first part is interesting with the marriage situation. The second part, based in Kashmir, lifts the film. I could not get into Bombay much when I rewatched it some time ago. May need to re-evalute it but I don't have high hopes from it. It appears to be a product of its time (showing its age) though it did provide a positive experience at the time of its release. Dil Se (despite SRK's overacting) has grown on me to be among my current top Bollywood films. On technical terms, it appears like a grand, due to its higher budget, and a relatively complex version of Roja. Dil Se, more or less, strikes a good balance between an art and a commercial film. All the three films have their negatives, but the positives, especially in Roja and Dil Se, make up for the short comings to provide a memorable viewing experience. How do you rate this trilogy? Edited January 23 by zen Gollum and Tillu 2
Gollum Posted January 23 Posted January 23 Watched them all a long time back, don't remember much except that I liked all of them. Great music as well, peak ARR. Bombay for some reason stuck with me most because that was my first experience of watching a movie with communal riots as theme. Also was a Manisha Koirala fan those days, my favorite 90s actress mainly because of that Shankar movie, Indian. ravishingravi and zen 2
Gollum Posted January 23 Posted January 23 I will revisit these movies, thanks for reminding me @zen Mani Ratnam is one of my favorite directors in Indian cinema, though his work in last 15-20 years has been mediocre to unwatchable IMO. Nayakan, Thalapathi (my fav movie starring Rajinikanth), Mouna Ragam, Alaipayuthe, Iruvar, Anjali, Yuva are some of his fine works from his peak years. Maybe more Tamil movies from 80s, which I haven't watched or can't recall right now. zen 1
zen Posted January 23 Author Posted January 23 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Gollum said: Also was a Manisha Koirala fan those days, my favorite 90s actress mainly because of that Shankar movie, Indian. Manisha's well measured acting is a major reason why I like Dil Se. Edited January 23 by zen Gollum and Tillu 2
zen Posted January 23 Author Posted January 23 (edited) My favorite scene from Roja: It is relatively a well done patriotic sequence compared to the “extreme” loudness we get to see in many patriotic films. Edited January 23 by zen diga 1
ravishingravi Posted January 23 Posted January 23 Actually Kanaitthil Mutthamital would also fall in same category. BacktoCricaddict 1
BacktoCricaddict Posted January 23 Posted January 23 Side-note: Not to be a purist or anything, but the Tamizh versions of the songs are so much better - the verbal subtlety of the original lyrics and the music being set to those lyrics could not be replicated in Hindi. This is the best example: diga 1
zen Posted January 23 Author Posted January 23 5 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said: Side-note: Not to be a purist or anything, but the Tamizh versions of the songs are so much better - the verbal subtlety of the original lyrics and the music being set to those lyrics could not be replicated in Hindi. This is the best example: Yes, a dubbed version can strip off a part of a film’s essence in a subtle manner. One of the reasons that Dil Se may connect more with the Bollywood audience as it is originally shot in Hindi. Gollum 1
EnterTheVoid Posted January 24 Posted January 24 Roja was a hard watch. Still get a lump in my throat everytime I watch it
ravishingravi Posted January 24 Posted January 24 In my view, Roja is the only one that has not got dated. Bombay also to a limited extent. Looking back, I am amazed at predictability of the tropes used. It was fresh at the time because the standards were very poor. What sticks. Music. Cinematography. And some high moments.
kepler37b Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On pure cinematic perspective, Dil Se is many more rungs above other two. It is sad that it was a commercial failure. Inspite of SRK switching between superb performance and over performance through out. Coming to politics: 1. Roja tries to humanize the terrorisst showing that only "faults" of Indian state forced them to pick up arms, while the reality is that they are demented religious barbarians. 2. Bombay does that "sarva dharma vadaapaav.." ideology at the end.
kepler37b Posted January 24 Posted January 24 14 hours ago, Gollum said: I will revisit these movies, thanks for reminding me @zen Mani Ratnam is one of my favorite directors in Indian cinema, though his work in last 15-20 years has been mediocre to unwatchable IMO. Nayakan, Thalapathi (my fav movie starring Rajinikanth), Mouna Ragam, Alaipayuthe, Iruvar, Anjali, Yuva are some of his fine works from his peak years. Maybe more Tamil movies from 80s, which I haven't watched or can't recall right now. You missed geetanjali. It was superb too.
zen Posted January 24 Author Posted January 24 Talking about negatives: Roja: Editing is relatively poor. Also the insertion of unwarranted characters such has the astrologer from Prayagraj create unnecessary tangents. One example of poor editing and insertion of an unnecessary sequence is right after the flag burning sequence where Arvind Swamy ends that sequence wth a huge cry. An example of a poor narrative choice is when Madhu sees Arvind Swamy in a newspaper and she runs to the astrologer to get the news read when anyone could have done that - so in a way a sequence to get the unnecessary character more screen time. There is a segment where Madhu is awakened by the astrologer to drag her to identify a body when a sleeker editing would have just moved the story straight to army vehicles crossing a bridge to go to the place where the body was (if it had to be examined outdoors). Madhu goes anywhere to meet a terrorist in jail, a minister, a whatever, to create some unnecessary lecture moments. The police is there to provide a standard reply - the matter is in army's hands as if even if the terrorists are in their area they would not do anything (but then Madhu could have gone to the army in the first place as Arvind was under their protection). The monologue by the army guy to reflect is opinion on the decision to let go of the terrorist is feels half baked as if there to cover various perspectives. The ending could have been stronger. Bombay: It is probably a gold mine of flaws so would require a much longer post. Dil Se: The overacting by SRK in particular stands out.
zen Posted January 24 Author Posted January 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, kepler37b said: On pure cinematic perspective, Dil Se is many more rungs above other two. It is sad that it was a commercial failure. Inspite of SRK switching between superb performance and over performance through out. In terms of global box office, Dil Se was a hit with revenues around INR 28-29 crores (unadjusted for inflation) on a budget of around 11-12 crores. It was the probably the first Indian film to get into UK's Top 10. The other two films had a much lower budget (INR 1-3 crores. Roja around INR 1-2 crore, Bombay around INR 2-3 crores) so gave a better ROI despite relatively lower revenues (INR 5-15 crores range. Roja around INR 5-6 crores, Bombay around INR 14-15 crores). Edited January 24 by zen
kepler37b Posted January 24 Posted January 24 3 hours ago, zen said: In terms of global box office, Dil Se was a hit with revenues around INR 28-29 crores (unadjusted for inflation) on a budget of around 11-12 crores. It was the probably the first Indian film to get into UK's Top 10. The other two films had a much lower budget (INR 1-3 crores. Roja around INR 1-2 crore, Bombay around INR 2-3 crores) so gave a better ROI despite relatively lower revenues (INR 5-15 crores range. Roja around INR 5-6 crores, Bombay around INR 14-15 crores). ...read in somewhere cinema portal that Dil se was a commercial failure. So it is indeed a success.
zen Posted January 24 Author Posted January 24 (edited) 24 minutes ago, kepler37b said: ...read in somewhere cinema portal that Dil se was a commercial failure. So it is indeed a success. In India, Dil Se performed below expectations but when accounting for overall global collections (India + Overseas), it was a hit. It grossed more than Roja + Bombay combined. Edited January 24 by zen
BacktoCricaddict Posted January 24 Posted January 24 (edited) 6 hours ago, zen said: Talking about negatives: Roja: Editing is relatively poor. Also the insertion of unwarranted characters such has the astrologer from Prayagraj create unnecessary tangents. One example of poor editing and insertion of an unnecessary sequence is right after the flag burning sequence where Arvind Swamy ends that sequence wth a huge cry. An example of a poor narrative choice is when Madhu sees Arvind Swamy in a newspaper and she runs to the astrologer to get the news read when anyone could have done that - so in a way a sequence to get the unnecessary character more screen time. There is a segment where Madhu is awakened by the astrologer to drag her to identify a body when a sleeker editing would have just moved the story straight to army vehicles crossing a bridge to go to the place where the body was (if it had to be examined outdoors). Madhu goes anywhere to meet a terrorist in jail, a minister, a whatever, to create some unnecessary lecture moments. The police is there to provide a standard reply - the matter is in army's hands as if even if the terrorists are in their area they would not do anything (but then Madhu could have gone to the army in the first place as Arvind was under their protection). The monologue by the army guy to reflect is opinion on the decision to let go of the terrorist is feels half baked as if there to cover various perspectives. The ending could have been stronger. Bombay: It is probably a gold mine of flaws so would require a much longer post. Dil Se: The overacting by SRK in particular stands out. 4 step strategy to enjoy these movies: (1) Learn Tamizh (2) Create a playlist of all the Tamizh version songs (3) Pour yourself your favorite scotch. (4) Switch off the movies and just listen to the songs. And btw, Vairamuthu = GOAT Edited January 24 by BacktoCricaddict
Gollum Posted January 24 Posted January 24 8 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said: And btw, Vairamuthu = GOAT You don't know about his transgressions? You hate the Aussie players for their sledging, sandpapergate etc. Vairamuthu is shunned by even his friends after #MeToo. Women from different political ideologies, religions, and age groups have come forth about his sexual harassment. sorak 1
Bigg Brother Posted January 24 Posted January 24 Dil se had some epic cinematography, brilliant background score and songs. Some melancholy attached to it when you watch it..
BacktoCricaddict Posted January 24 Posted January 24 2 hours ago, Gollum said: You don't know about his transgressions? You hate the Aussie players for their sledging, sandpapergate etc. Vairamuthu is shunned by even his friends after #MeToo. Women from different political ideologies, religions, and age groups have come forth about his sexual harassment. My post was in praise of his GOAT lyricism, not his character. No one is worthy of blanket praise. Every time someone brings up the accomplishments of the Ozzie cricketers, I grudgingly acknowledge the achievement ("great player, but ..."), but point out the character flaws. Same deal here.
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