Who is the greatest Indian Cricketer ever.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Lurker]

That is precisely the point i am trying to make . I say , a Lee or an Akhtar or a Bond would be doubly effective against the batsman of an earlier era since they were not used to genuine quick bowling.

Now I am confused. Are we comparing 80s to this era? If so let me say Lee, Akhtar wouldnt have lasted. If you are talking of a different era(say 60s) then I am not sure where did that come from. Do this. Go on a Pakistani site and ask if Shoaib Akhtar is as good a bowler(forget batting) as Imran was in 80s. Then go to an Aussie website and compare Lee/Mcgrath with Lillee. If you still insist visit a West Indies site and ask for Collymore comparison with Roberts/Marshall. Of course you can always compare a Zaheer Khan with Kapil on ICF. I beleive you will get the answer.

So does that now make Sachin's record against these players even more creditworthy ? looks like we are going in a circle with this point. So , lets drop this point alone , if you agree.

I didnt get it actually. Koi nahin lets drop it.

I have seen videos yes , of Kapil , Botham and Imran. I definitely think Imran and Botham were better bowlers than Kapil , with Kapil being the better batsman of the group. I am pretty sure you wouldnt agree with my assessment.

I wouldnt. I can see why you would rate Imran ahead of Kapil. I can not see why you would Botham ahead of Kapil. Half of Botham's wicket came through his pet delivery - long hop. Even Botham admits it in his book(will dig it up if you are interested). If you get a chance do check up how Botham performed in his last 15-20 tests you would be surprised. In his last 15 tests he had 22 wickets! As for batting Kapil was best like you said. Even if I buy your argument for a second, how do you suggest Kapil was worst all-rounder when you yourself consider him the best batsman if not the best bowler?

Am surprised you dont rate a player who was once considered the most talented and outstanding player of his time. Surprise !

Three reasons: 1) Ian Botham, like Kapil, had a GREAT first half. All his glory faded in his last half. His first 40 tests got him about 200 wickets, for his next 180 wickets he played a good 60 tests(at a rate of less than 3 wickets per tests). 2) His performance against the greatest team of its time West Indies is really bad. 792runs@21 and 61 wickets@35. No centuries. Kapil's performance on the other hand is the BEST amongst the all-rounders. 1079@31(3 cenuries) & 89 wickets@24.9 3) His reportcard as a skipper is hopeless. Didnt win anything of note, if at all. Kapil won World Cup. Actually won a good 10 years before Imran did. Plus man for man Kapil was the best fielder of the lot too. xxxx

[Ram]

Now I am confused. Are we comparing 80s to this era? If so let me say Lee, Akhtar wouldnt have lasted. If you are talking of a different era(say 60s) then I am not sure where did that come from. Do this. Go on a Pakistani site and ask if Shoaib Akhtar is as good a bowler(forget batting) as Imran was in 80s. Then go to an Aussie website and compare Lee/Mcgrath with Lillee. If you still insist visit a West Indies site and ask for Collymore comparison with Roberts/Marshall. Of course you can always compare a Zaheer Khan with Kapil on ICF. I beleive you will get the answer.

I am not trying to compare players across eras here , which is what you seem to have understood it as. I am simply saying , You cannot hold the glittering stats of the fast bowlers of the 80's as a sole reason to say 80's cricket was better than cricket of now. Things have changed since then,

I wouldnt. I can see why you would rate Imran ahead of Kapil. I can not see why you would Botham ahead of Kapil. Half of Botham's wicket came through his pet delivery - long hop. Even Botham admits it in his book(will dig it up if you are interested). If you get a chance do check up how Botham performed in his last 15-20 tests you would be surprised. In his last 15 tests he had 22 wickets!

And Kapil's last 15 tests yielded him 34 wickets ! :D At his best , I would say Botham was more deadlier than Kapil with the ball, with an awesome combination of swing and pace. As i said earlier , EVERY past player worth his salt have always said - " Imran , Botham and Kapil" . So for me , it essentially your word against theirs and i have no reason to doubt either yours or theirs. Ofcourse my opinion has ALREADY been biased by hearing those comments made by those players. I am basing my entire argument by what i have " heard" and not what i have "seen" , which i admit is a problem.

As for batting Kapil was best like you said. Even if I buy your argument for a second, how do you suggest Kapil was worst all-rounder when you yourself consider him the best batsman if not the best bowler?

Simple. Being the best batsman among the three still doesnt make the biggest match-winner of all. After all , it is these guys bowling that was their main weapon. Its like saying Pollock was the better batsman among himself , Donald and Mcgrath and hence the better cricketer.

Three reasons: 1) Ian Botham, like Kapil, had a GREAT first half. All his glory faded in his last half. His first 40 tests got him about 200 wickets, for his next 180 wickets he played a good 60 tests(at a rate of less than 3 wickets per tests). 2) His performance against the greatest team of its time West Indies is really bad. 792runs@21 and 61 wickets@35. No centuries. Kapil's performance on the other hand is the BEST amongst the all-rounders. 1079@31(3 cenuries) & 89 wickets@24.9 3) His reportcard as a skipper is hopeless. Didnt win anything of note, if at all. Kapil won World Cup. Actually won a good 10 years before Imran did. Plus man for man Kapil was the best fielder of the lot too. xxxx

Some excellent points there. But , because we are missing the overall context here , we could easily be looking at the wrong set of stats , coming to the wrong conclusion.

[Lurker]

I am not trying to compare players across eras here ' date=' which is what you seem to have understood it as. [b']I am simply saying , You cannot hold the glittering stats of the fast bowlers of the 80's as a sole reason to say 80's cricket was better than cricket of now. Things have changed since then,

Well see thats the thing. I am a man who is removed as far from stats as you would ever get. I am saying XYZ was better based on my opinions of actually seeing them in action. Take Malcolm Marshall for example. You might thing his stats are inflated but do you know that he once dismissed an entire English team with one bandaged arm!! Read this: http://content-www.cricinfo.com/alltodaysyesterdays/content/story/149488.html I am not sure if you know but perhaps the biggest humiliation of Sunil Gavaskar, that master technician, was when he(Marshall) knocked off the bat from Sunny's hand on a docile Indian pitch. Trust me I am not using stats at all for my thoughts.

And Kapil's last 15 tests yielded him 34 wickets ! :D

Still better than Botham's :D But like I have said before Kapil played too long as well. Should have retired 2 years before he eventually did.

At his best , I would say Botham was more deadlier than Kapil with the ball, with an awesome combination of swing and pace. As i said earlier , EVERY past player worth his salt have always said - " Imran , Botham and Kapil" . So for me , it essentially your word against theirs and i have no reason to doubt either yours or theirs. Ofcourse my opinion has ALREADY been biased by hearing those comments made by those players. I am basing my entire argument by what i have " heard" and not what i have "seen" , which i admit is a problem.

Fair enough. I would put it this way. Botham was the biggest match winner of the lot, at his peak that is. Else he was very average at times. Imran was bowler in first half, batsman in second half. Kapil was the only one who would qualify as a true all-rounder overall. What he lacked however was swing/pace conditions that Botham had, or bowling support that Imran had.

Simple. Being the best batsman among the three still doesnt make the biggest match-winner of all. After all , it is these guys bowling that was their main weapon. Its like saying Pollock was the better batsman among himself , Donald and Mcgrath and hence the better cricketer.

But we arent comparing Pollock with Mcgrath are we now? We are comparing Kapil, Hadlee, Imran and Botham(and do correct me if I am wrong here). So obviously batting is important here. Just for records here is my ranking: Bowling - Hadlee, Imran, Kapil, Botham Batting - Kapil, Botham, Imran, Hadlee Fielding - Kapil, Botham, Hadlee, Imran No wonder overall I rate Kapil best. :shades_smile:

Some excellent points there. But , because we are missing the overall context here , we could easily be looking at the wrong set of stats , coming to the wrong conclusion.

Not at all. Those are the points that is generally held against Botham, specially his performance against West Indies. But maybe we have argued some useless points here too :giggle: xxx

[Cricketics]

sarandeep singh is the greatest Indian cricketer ever..

[The Outsider]

I think the greatest Indian cricketer was Kapil Dev and the greatest cricketer from India was Tendulkar. I suspect the latter is being discussed so I voted for Tendulkar.

[Predator_05]

I think the greatest Indian cricketer was Kapil Dev and the greatest cricketer from India was Tendulkar. I suspect the latter is being discussed so I voted for Tendulkar.

Yeh kaunsa keera tere avatar space mein ghus gaya hai yaar ? :D

[The Outsider]

Yeh kaunsa keera tere avatar space mein ghus gaya hai yaar ? :D

Socha tere avatar ke keede ko takkar deta hoon. Just a pic I recently took.

[Ram]

Well see thats the thing. I am a man who is removed as far from stats as you would ever get. I am saying XYZ was better based on my opinions of actually seeing them in action. Take Malcolm Marshall for example. You might thing his stats are inflated but do you know that he once dismissed an entire English team with one bandaged arm!!

I do understand that you are basing your opinion on what you have seen of these players and not going by mere stats. But , it is the same words coming from the words of past players that ranks both Imran and Botham ahead of Kapil. I think you see my confusion here.

Still better than Botham's :D But like I have said before Kapil played too long as well. Should have retired 2 years before he eventually did.

Still , that doesnt make it any better does it. Kapil , as you have mentioned , overstayed his welcome. And seeing Botham's stats and taking into factor that he took 22 wickets in his last 15 matches , that is a staggering 365 wickets in his first 85 matches. MORE proof that , in his heydey , he was better than kapil.

But we arent comparing Pollock with Mcgrath are we now?

No , I mentioned that as a counter to you using Kapils's better batting skill to rate him above Ian and Imran. Pollock bats better than Mcgrath and Donald , but who would you have in your team , is my question.

No wonder overall I rate Kapil best. :shades_smile: xxx

I can see where it is coming from. :D

[Rajiv]

Big SACHIN fan but I still pick Kapil Dev for his dynamic all round ability Likewise, with Pakistan - they had great bats too but no one can reach a status like Imran Khan Sachin has to be the best bat for his performance in ODI and TESTS ---------------------- Remove the above too, a great which we hardly talk about ANIL KUMBLE

[Bumper]

Am assuming tests here. In general, an allrounder will always be a better cricketer than a batsman of comparable talent. That said in this poll the comparison is too easy. Even if u take away all his achievements as a batsman and simply consider him as a bowler & a leader, Kapil may still be miles ahead of SRT, as a test cricketer. Include his batting prowess into the equation, this comparison will quickly deteriorate to the likes of an imbecile vs a Harvard graduate. Here are my top 3, India's greatest cricketers: 1) Kumble 2) Kapil 3) Dravid closely followed by Gavaskar And then the rest. The best spot Tendulkar can hope to attain in my list is the 5th.

[The Outsider]

Am assuming tests here. In general, an allrounder will always be a better cricketer than a batsman of comparable talent. That said in this poll the comparison is too easy. Even if u take away all his achievements as a batsman and simply consider him as a bowler & a leader, Kapil may still be miles ahead of SRT, as a test cricketer. Include his batting prowess into the equation, this comparison will quickly deteriorate to the likes of an imbecile vs a Harvard graduate. Here are my top 3, India's greatest cricketers: 1) Kumble 2) Kapil 3) Dravid closely followed by Gavaskar And then the rest. The best spot Tendulkar can hope to attain in my list is the 5th.

Do Labzon ki hai yeh dil ki kahani...............

[King]

Lack of choices for me but if it is between Kapil and Sachin I have to go with Kapil Dev here. India has had its share of fantastic batsmen but fast bowlers with all round capability for India has seen only one and that is Kapil Dev. Kapil Dev was an outstanding cricketer and could command a place either as a batter or a bowler. Considering India was used to opening bowling with the likes of Madan Lal and Amarnath it must have been really hard for Kapil Dev to choose to be a fast bowler. Kapil Dev was no mug with the bat either, he had this great knack of producing runs when India needed it very badly. Kapil Dev could change the destination of the game in no time. Well and truly the greatest cricketer India has had. Sachin Tendulkar is not behind either, he has to be one of the best players ever but considering India wasn't bereft of good batters he had someone to look up to at least. Rahul Dravid to certain extent has filled in at times when Tendulkar was not around or had some bad run of form. There hasn't been one to fill in for Kapil Dev and that says a lot. I would personally not compare them both at all considering they are different set of players. One an out and out batter while the other was a one off all rounder. That said if I had the option of only choosing one among the two I would go for Kapil Dev given his all round ability.

[Robelinda]

Kapil Dev- the best Indian cricketer of all time, IMO [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFwGJFlLg0c]Kapil Dev BIGGEST SIX of his career, vs Australia absolutely massive - YouTube[/ame]

[Abhilash123]

I tend to believe..... Very close... b/w Gavaskar,Tendu and Kapil!!!! But everyone can agree...he is the best all rounder(only all rounder) India ever had!!

[Ranvir]

Would Kapil Dev ever get into a World All Time XI? No. Would Tendulkar get into a World All Time XI? Yes.

[vvvslaxman]

:hatsoff: A genuine fighter who fought fire with fire .

[Lurker]

Greg Matthews, Craig McDermott, Wayne Phillips...it is circa 80s Australian cricket team. Those years Aussies had a truckload of part time wicket keepers - Wayne Phillips, Tim Zoherer, Mike Veletta. Back to Kapil, yes the greatest Indian players of all times. :two_thumbs_up:

[trundlerNO1]

Not really He is far behind Tendulkar, Gavaskar and Dravid

[Number]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K25C4pcsrs]Kapil Dev 89 off 55 balls 1st test vs England 1982 - YouTube[/ame] 89 off 55 balls batting at no 7. Apart from him only Viv could do this to Bob Willis and Botham.