Swing to win, India

[Marut]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin2=100;qualval2=wickets;spanmin1=1+jan+1970;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling Bowling figures sorted by averages, for all bowlers who have taken 100 wickets since 1970. As far as I can see, there are only four pace bowlers in top 25 who cannot be termed very fast. Every one else on the list has frightening pace. Even the four bowlers listed here are extremely good bowlers who have many tricks to make up for their relatively lesser pace. In short, pace bowlers with more pace have dominated more batsmen than bowlers with less pace. Every thing remaining the same, a bowler with 10-15kph extra pace is more unplayable. Indians will never turn up on these all time lists because they keep harping about accuracy and make no attempts to reach top speeds. Our best fast bowler Kapil Dev ranks 49 in the list. Kapil was a damn good bowler by Indian standards, but if he had 10kph extra pace, he would be within top 25 in that list. Srinath, would have been on this list, for his decent pace, if he had pitched the ball up, more often.

[Muloghonto]

Bowling figures sorted by averages, for all bowlers who have taken 100 wickets since 1970. As far as I can see, there are only four pace bowlers in top 25 who cannot be termed very fast. Every one else on the list has frightening pace. Even the four bowlers listed here are extremely good bowlers who have many tricks to make up for their relatively lesser pace.

I will use Ishant, Zaheer & Yadav as benchmarks here, because they typically bowl in the 130-137kph stock ball, with the occasional effort ball going in the 140+ range. I do not consider that to be frightening pace. Frightening pace is for those who can bowl a stock ball consistently in the 140-145kph range, close to 145kph (90 miles an hour) or more. Of the list provided, bowlers who were the same speed as the Indian trio named or slower are: Joel Garner Curtley Ambrose Glenn McGrath Richard Hadlee Shaun Pollock Wasim Akram Courtney Walsh Bruce Reid Bob Willis John Snow Paul Reiffel Terry Alderman Angus Fraser Heath Streak Merv Hughes Ian Botham Darren Gough Makhaya Ntini Chris Cairns Kapil Dev Chaminda Vaaaas. Dale Steyn Mohammed Asif Peter Siddle Of the bowlers who are in the frighteningly fast group, we have: Malcolm Marshall Alan Donald Imran Khan Waqar Younis Michael Holding Denis Lillee Ian Bishop Shoaib Akhtar Andy Roberts Jason Gillespie ( early years) Jeff thompson Rodney Hogg As you can see, pace is not the issue here, we have more 'greats' in the group that is slower/equal to the Indian speed merchants than in the one which is clearly faster.

In short, pace bowlers with more pace have dominated more batsmen than bowlers with less pace. Every thing remaining the same, a bowler with 10-15kph extra pace is more unplayable. Indians will never turn up on these all time lists because they keep harping about accuracy and make no attempts to reach top speeds.

Then please explain to us why Curtley Ambrose, at the age of 38, bowling at 78mph (which is barely 125kph ?) tooled England with an average of less than 20 per wicket ? The Indians would never make this list because the Indians have not been accurate enough in the first place. Name one Indian pacer, sans Kapil Dev that would be even the top 10 most accurate pacer going around in his career. You keep displacing the problem to due to lack of pace, when Indian bowlers in reality have found it hard to gain mastery of the more essential skills of bowling, which all the bowlers above you've named had.

Our best fast bowler Kapil Dev ranks 49 in the list. Kapil was a damn good bowler by Indian standards, but if he had 10kph extra pace, he would be within top 25 in that list. Srinath, would have been on this list, for his decent pace, if he had pitched the ball up, more often.

If Kapil had an inswinger for the last 7-8 years of his career, he'd have been much better. Also, Kapil post early 1980s, I'd agree- Kapil in the mid/late 80s onwards was struggling to push 130kph, which IMO is too slow for Test cricket and he did not come with an adequate repertoire of movement both ways and bounce. Srinath would've been up there in that list if he had: a) a decent outswinger b) accuracy. he was rather mediocre one trick pony with good pace and a decent inswinger. Beyond that,he had nothing else. It wasnt about him pitching it up, it was his lack of both ways movement on a consistent basis and being distinctly inferior to the likes of Wasim, Fraser, Caddick, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Donald, Pollock, deVilliers, McGrath, Gillespie,etc. in the accuracy factor.

[express bowling]

I will use Ishant, Zaheer & Yadav as benchmarks here, because they typically bowl in the 130-137kph stock ball, with the occasional effort ball going in the 140+ range. I do not consider that to be frightening pace.

You consider Yadav to be similar to Zaheer of now in terms of pace ? Do you watch Indian cricket at all ? Yadav's pace -- Odis. -- 138 k to 148 k Tests -- 135 k to 148 k Fastest of 152 k in Australi Ishant's pace -- He bowls 2 kinds of pace, fast in one season, fast-medium the next. -- Odis -- 130 to 141 or 135 to 147 k -- Tests -- 130 to 143 or 135 to 148 k when fast Zaheer ( current year ) -- Odis -- 130 to 140 k -- Tests -- 130 to 140 k Aaron -- Pace similar to Umesh, sometimes 2 k slower, although fastest ball almost always around 148 k in every match.

[Marut]

I will use Ishant, Zaheer & Yadav as benchmarks here, because they typically bowl in the 130-137kph stock ball, with the occasional effort ball going in the 140+ range. I do not consider that to be frightening pace. Frightening pace is for those who can bowl a stock ball consistently in the 140-145kph range, close to 145kph (90 miles an hour) or more. Of the list provided, bowlers who were the same speed as the Indian trio named or slower are: Joel Garner Curtley Ambrose Glenn McGrath Richard Hadlee Shaun Pollock Wasim Akram Courtney Walsh Bruce Reid Bob Willis John Snow Paul Reiffel Terry Alderman Angus Fraser Heath Streak Merv Hughes Ian Botham Darren Gough Makhaya Ntini Chris Cairns Kapil Dev Chaminda Vaaaas. Dale Steyn Mohammed Asif Peter Siddle Of the bowlers who are in the frighteningly fast group, we have: Malcolm Marshall Alan Donald Imran Khan Waqar Younis Michael Holding Denis Lillee Ian Bishop Shoaib Akhtar Andy Roberts Jason Gillespie ( early years) Jeff thompson Rodney Hogg As you can see, pace is not the issue here, we have more 'greats' in the group that is slower/equal to the Indian speed merchants than in the one which is clearly faster. Then please explain to us why Curtley Ambrose, at the age of 38, bowling at 78mph (which is barely 125kph ?) tooled England with an average of less than 20 per wicket ? The Indians would never make this list because the Indians have not been accurate enough in the first place. Name one Indian pacer, sans Kapil Dev that would be even the top 10 most accurate pacer going around in his career. You keep displacing the problem to due to lack of pace, when Indian bowlers in reality have found it hard to gain mastery of the more essential skills of bowling, which all the bowlers above you've named had. If Kapil had an inswinger for the last 7-8 years of his career, he'd have been much better. Also, Kapil post early 1980s, I'd agree- Kapil in the mid/late 80s onwards was struggling to push 130kph, which IMO is too slow for Test cricket and he did not come with an adequate repertoire of movement both ways and bounce. Srinath would've been up there in that list if he had: a) a decent outswinger b) accuracy. he was rather mediocre one trick pony with good pace and a decent inswinger. Beyond that,he had nothing else. It wasnt about him pitching it up, it was his lack of both ways movement on a consistent basis and being distinctly inferior to the likes of Wasim, Fraser, Caddick, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Donald, Pollock, deVilliers, McGrath, Gillespie,etc. in the accuracy factor.

First, Zak, Ishant and Yadav are not similar bowlers. Yadav is significantly faster. I will agree that Ishant averaging 38 odd after 47 tests is one of the worst bowlers we have had, and part of it due to low skills or "bad luck" as his fanboys say. Comments on your picks: Joel Garner - 6' 8'' abnormal height Curtley Ambrose - 6' 7'' abnormal height Glenn McGrath - I will give this to you. Richard Hadlee - very fast bowler, slowed down a bit later, not comparable to our trundlers. Shaun Pollock - I will give this to you Wasim Akram - I will give this to you Courtney Walsh - 6' 6'' abnormal height Bruce Reid - 6' 6'' abnormal height Bob Willis - 6' 5'' abnormal height John Snow - I am not sure but I have heard he had very quick stock deliveries Paul Reiffel - short career so I will leave him Terry Alderman -I will give this to you. Angus Fraser- 6' 6'' abnormal height Heath Streak - He wasn't an all time great bowler Merv Hughes - I think he is 6' 5'' Ian Botham - He wasn't an all time great bowler Darren Gough - He wasn't an all time great bowler Makhaya Ntini - He is not 130s bowler. Chris Cairns - He wasn't an all time great bowler Kapil Dev - He wasn't an all time great bowler Chaminda Vaaaas. - He wasn't an all time great bowler Dale Steyn - You must be kidding to claim that Zak and Ishant are as fast as Steyn. Mohammed Asif - I will give this to you Peter Siddle - Siddle can bowl real fast,up to 150k, and not the Zak/Ishant type of bowler. So only five or six bowlers in this list who had success without having frightening pace or abnormal height. Most of the guys in this list were abnormally tall that could compensate for lower pace. Srinath had lesser variations, but his more serious problem was that he did not make the batsmen play at each delivery by bowling short. Full length deliveries are trickier to leave. Srinath's 145kph+ deliveries often ended in the keeper's gloves.

[CG]

First, Zak, Ishant and Yadav are not similar bowlers. Yadav is significantly faster. I will agree that Ishant averaging 38 odd after 47 tests is one of the worst bowlers we have had, and part of it due to low skills or "bad luck" as his fanboys say. Comments on your picks: Joel Garner - 6' 8'' abnormal height Curtley Ambrose - 6' 7'' abnormal height Glenn McGrath - I will give this to you. Richard Hadlee - very fast bowler, slowed down a bit later, not comparable to our trundlers. Shaun Pollock - I will give this to you Wasim Akram - I will give this to you Courtney Walsh - 6' 6'' abnormal height Bruce Reid - 6' 6'' abnormal height Bob Willis - 6' 5'' abnormal height John Snow - I am not sure but I have heard he had very quick stock deliveries Paul Reiffel - short career so I will leave him Terry Alderman -I will give this to you. Angus Fraser- 6' 6'' abnormal height Heath Streak - He wasn't an all time great bowler Merv Hughes - I think he is 6' 5'' Ian Botham - He wasn't an all time great bowler Darren Gough - He wasn't an all time great bowler Makhaya Ntini - He is not 130s bowler. Chris Cairns - He wasn't an all time great bowler Kapil Dev - He wasn't an all time great bowler Chaminda Vaaaas. - He wasn't an all time great bowler Dale Steyn - You must be kidding to claim that Zak and Ishant are as fast as Steyn. Mohammed Asif - I will give this to you Peter Siddle - Siddle can bowl real fast,up to 150k, and not the Zak/Ishant type of bowler. So only five or six bowlers in this list who had success without having frightening pace or abnormal height. Most of the guys in this list were abnormally tall that could compensate for lower pace. Srinath had lesser variations, but his more serious problem was that he did not make the batsmen play at each delivery by bowling short. Full length deliveries are trickier to leave. Srinath's 145kph+ deliveries often ended in the keeper's gloves.

Ishant was as fast as siddle if not faster and certainly faster than yadav in last australian tour clocking 152km/h and many spells in 145k+ range.

[Lord]

Richard Hadlee was a 'very fat' bowler?

[vvvslaxman]

If only ingredients are enough anyone can make a good biriyani. It is how you make it that counts. It involves accuracy, patience, setting up batsman, being aware of batsman's weakness, variety.. etc. etc.. you cannot say speed + swing = guaranteed success or swing + accuracy = guaranteed success..

[SLICKR392]

If only ingredients are enough anyone can make a good biriyani. It is how you make it that counts. It involves accuracy, patience, setting up batsman, being aware of batsman's weakness, variety.. etc. etc.. you cannot say speed + swing = guaranteed success or swing + accuracy = guaranteed success..

swing + speed + accuracy + Indian + 1 year = full tosses at 125Ks.

[Old guy]

baryani compared to fast bowling? are u zaheer?

[maniac]

First, Zak, Ishant and Yadav are not similar bowlers. Yadav is significantly faster. I will agree that Ishant averaging 38 odd after 47 tests is one of the worst bowlers we have had, and part of it due to low skills or "bad luck" as his fanboys say. Comments on your picks: Joel Garner - 6' 8'' abnormal height Curtley Ambrose - 6' 7'' abnormal height Glenn McGrath - I will give this to you. Richard Hadlee - very fast bowler, slowed down a bit later, not comparable to our trundlers. Shaun Pollock - I will give this to you Wasim Akram - I will give this to you Courtney Walsh - 6' 6'' abnormal height Bruce Reid - 6' 6'' abnormal height Bob Willis - 6' 5'' abnormal height John Snow - I am not sure but I have heard he had very quick stock deliveries Paul Reiffel - short career so I will leave him Terry Alderman -I will give this to you. Angus Fraser- 6' 6'' abnormal height Heath Streak - He wasn't an all time great bowler Merv Hughes - I think he is 6' 5'' Ian Botham - He wasn't an all time great bowler Darren Gough - He wasn't an all time great bowler Makhaya Ntini - He is not 130s bowler. Chris Cairns - He wasn't an all time great bowler Kapil Dev - He wasn't an all time great bowler Chaminda Vaaaas. - He wasn't an all time great bowler Dale Steyn - You must be kidding to claim that Zak and Ishant are as fast as Steyn. Mohammed Asif - I will give this to you Peter Siddle - Siddle can bowl real fast,up to 150k, and not the Zak/Ishant type of bowler. So only five or six bowlers in this list who had success without having frightening pace or abnormal height. Most of the guys in this list were abnormally tall that could compensate for lower pace. Srinath had lesser variations, but his more serious problem was that he did not make the batsmen play at each delivery by bowling short. Full length deliveries are trickier to leave. Srinath's 145kph+ deliveries often ended in the keeper's gloves.

you are joking right? the guy who once held the test and odi record for the highest wicket taker is not a atg bowler? or did you start watching cricket in the 2000's?

[express bowling]

1) Regarding heights, Garner was 6'10" Reid was 6'10" too McGrath was 6'5" , really tall too. 2) Really tall bowlers often make up for slower release pace by the steep bounce that they get which also hurries and intimidates batsmen. 3) Siddle generally bowls 135 k to 142 k like Ishant and can sometimes bowl 140 to 150 k like Ishant too. 4) Hadlee was a fast-medium bowler for most part of his career. But he could push the batsmen on the backfoot with sizzling bouncers.

[JaFanatic]

I will use Ishant, Zaheer & Yadav as benchmarks here, because they typically bowl in the 130-137kph stock ball, with the occasional effort ball going in the 140+ range.

you didn mean umesh yadav right?

[Old guy]

yadav 135

[JaFanatic]

Ishant was as fast as siddle if not faster and certainly faster than yadav in last australian tour clocking 152km/h and many spells in 145k+ range.

ishant bowled the fastest ball but on avrg yadav was faster

[Old guy]

yadav's effort ball is near 150 k is normal ball is easily over 140

[CG]

ishant bowled the fastest ball but on avrg yadav was faster

No ishant was quicker than yadav in terms of avg speed also.

[Old guy]

No ishant was quicker than yadav in terms of avg speed also.

in some spells yes but he is fast in one match or series and is tundler in next

[vvvslaxman]

baryani compared to fast bowling? are u zaheer?

:giggle:

[vvvslaxman]

No ishant was quicker than yadav in terms of avg speed also.

That is where we fans get fooled by the way they measure speeds. It gives us a false picture .

[JaFanatic]

No ishant was quicker than yadav in terms of avg speed also.

AFAIK umesh was quicker:dontknow: