MS Dhoni - Greatest finisher ever

[bulbul]

Rather not reply to him now. He is bound to go to any extend to defend Poms' date=' for no valid reasons. First Anderson and now this.[/quote'] Too late :winky: He already replied & issues are solved :P ps : Don't worry United will get more & more opportunities in next matches.

[I6MTW]

the final is over. Why are we still discussing about this.

[vvvslaxman]

cricinfo poll result

[bulbul]

210 CSK fans :phehehe:

[The Outsider]

Same Dhoni helped us draw a test match at Lords in more difficult conditions for batting and that draw lead us to a series victory. Though rain played a big part too' date= but cannot deny Dhoni had played a wonderful innings.

What was so difficult about the conditions - for the last 10 overs England were not even able to use fast bowlers due to poor light and were bowling Vaughan and Panesar?

[putrevus]

Dhoni has zero test innings abroad where he has done anything of note compared to what Prior and even Haddin have done. He is big liability with the bat in overseas tests.

[I6MTW]

Dhoni has zero test innings abroad where he has done anything of note compared to what Prior and even Haddin have done. He is big liability with the bat in overseas tests.

He has changed his batting position now, to do something with the bat. He will improve in tests now. We are witnessing the Second Coming of Dhoni. He will end his career with decent test numbers.

[rkt.india]

What was so difficult about the conditions - for the last 10 overs England were not even able to use fast bowlers due to poor light and were bowling Vaughan and Panesar?

Did he play only those 10 overs? and tailenders were not even surviving Panesar. here is that innings and in fact 7 overs were bowled by Vaughan and Panesar and Panesar took a wicket in between them. Dhoni played 159 balls for 76. http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvind/engine/match/258468.html?innings=4;page=2;view=commentary

[rkt.india]

Dhoni always takes safety first option then looks to attack later only if it is total necessity.multiple reasons i feel are he has limited strokes in his repertoire which he can play without taking undue risk and he wants to take game as far as possible and hope for best.He does the same with his captaincy too. I don't like Dhoni's approach chances of failure are more, it is just it has come off in recent times, but if any cares to remember he took the same approach in a T20 match against NZ before but failed.

Dhoni wasn't like this when he was a junior in the team before 2007. He could start attacking from the start but once he became captain, he changed his game a lot and for the better, IMO. When he was junior, he had all the freedom to play his natural game, but since he became captain, players like Raina were given that freedom.

[rkt.india]

Dhoni has zero test innings abroad where he has done anything of note compared to what Prior and even Haddin have done. He is big liability with the bat in overseas tests.

Top scorer in both the innings. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/474474.html This was match saving innings. http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvind/engine/match/258468.html?innings=4;page=2;view=commentary Top scores in first innings for India. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/489228.html Top scorer for India in first innings. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518951.html

[putrevus]

Dhoni wasn't like this when he was a junior in the team before 2007. He could start attacking from the start but once he became captain' date=' he changed his game a lot and for the better, IMO. When he was junior, he had all the freedom to play his natural game, but since he became captain, players like Raina were given that freedom.[/quote'] I think in his mind if he plays big shots he will be vulnerable and that is why he only looks to get singles and twos and play risk free cricket. This is not a knock on Dhoni but he has limited range of shots.Which BTW he makes up with his tenacity. In Dhoni's defense Dhoni is an excellent runner between the wickets and he can rotate strike but he needs batsman at other end to do the same and due to position he bats he gets stuck up with tail enders who cannot rotate strike as freely as top order batsmen and it increases the RRR. If you look at video of last match and see Kohli's reactions (who is best chaser in Indian cricket history IMO) as match was unfolding .It was like are you kidding me Dhoni why do you have to make this chase so tough. Gambhir also said the same about the other famous Dhoni's chase in Australia, it never should have come to last over. That's why when we have top order batsmen like Raina batting with Dhoni at end of match we usually win in a canter or Mr Dhoni would drag the match to very end like he did the other day or even in Australia and hope for the best.

[rkt.india]

I think in his mind if he plays big shots he will be vulnerable and that is why he only looks to get singles and twos and play risk free cricket.

There is no batsman in the world who is no vulnerable while playing big shots. Same Dhoni used to play big shots at will before becoming captain and still averaged pretty good .

If you look at video of last match and see Kohli's reactions (who is best chaser in Indian cricket history IMO) as match was unfolding .It was like are you kidding me Dhoni why do you have to make this chase so tough. Gambhir also said the same about the other famous Dhoni's chase in Australia, it never should have come to last over.

Leave SL out and tell me which match Kohli has finished. Even in Aus CB series, he could not score runs in matches against Aussies and let me know in which match he batted with tailenders to win it. Kohli sure is a batsman who knows how to bat in a chase of a big total but still far from the best yet. Our best chasing spree came in with Dhoni and Yuvraj doing it for us. When you know, you are the only batsman left, you would not go in hitting mode and lose the match with one mis hit. Even in that Aus match of CB series, he was batting with tail. You cannot leave things to tail in an attempt to try and hit.

That's why when we have top order batsmen like Raina batting with Dhoni at end of match we usually win in a canter or Mr Dhoni would drag the match to very end like he did the other day or even in Australia and hope for the best.

That is because they have been given the freedom to play their natural game and they know they can play their natural game till Dhoni is there. Dhoni is a far bigger hitter or striker of the ball than most of them except Yuvraj and Dhoni has more shots than Raina both against pacers and spinners. Look at what Raina did in final in an attempt to play aggressive and for me that was the turning point of the match. If Raina had not got out playing that rash, it would not have reached to last over, but after that wickets kept falling so he had to stay and see it through rather than playing shots like Raina did and get out and lose the match. Raina's approach is double-edged sword. Every player in the team has a role to play. Raina is given that role to be aggressive and Dhoni is to pay risk-free cricket because this guy is really mentally strong and has self confidence to get any target once he is in and knows how to stay calm in such situations. PS: If someone has forget what Dhoni can do when he bats aggressively, people need to watch these kinds of footage of him. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VxOMwtbjsg]4 6 4 4 4 4 4 MS Dhoni ASSAULTS Shoaib Akhtar - YouTube[/ame] [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apUWi34xJxY]MS Dhoni destroying Pakistani bowlers 77(56)* - India v Pakistan 5th at Karachi 2006 - YouTube[/ame]

[b555]

good post rkt,

[putrevus]

There is no batsman in the world who is no vulnerable while playing big shots. Same Dhoni used to play big shots at will before becoming captain and still averaged pretty good .

Playing big shots does not necessarily mean playing shots in air, You can play shots without hitting ball in air if you have strokes all round the wickets which Dhoni does not have.

Leave SL out and tell me which match Kohli has finished. Even in Aus CB series, he could not score runs in matches against Aussies and let me know in which match he batted with tailenders to win it. Kohli sure is a batsman who knows how to bat in a chase of a big total but finisher far from the best. OUr best chasing spree came in with Dhoni and Yuvraj doing it for us.

Dhoni finished that match against Pakistan in which Kohli scored 183 it does not mean Dhoni was reason why that match was won. I never said Kohli was a finisher I said Kohli is best Chaser because he sets up the chase brilliantly. How can you expect no3 batsman to stay not out till then end if he get outs after setting up the win he has done his job. I never said Indian chasing was the best with Kohli in the team.All I said was Kohli is best chaser IMO in Indian history I know for sure when he make runs in a chase India will win. Why Leave SL Kohli happened to play best against SL so far in his young career, He scored 8 hundreds and 11 50s in successful chases .Those 8 hundreds in winning chases is second most to Tendulkar's 14 and Kohli has played just over 100 games. He has scored more runs than Dhoni in winning chases already but that is mainly due Dhoni's batting position.Even if Dhoni bats in top 3 I doubt he will the same record as Kohli. Kohli is just a superior batsman than Dhoni.

When you know, you are the only batsman left, you would not go in hitting mode and lose the match with one mis hit. Even in that Aus match of CB series, he was batting with tail. You cannot leave things to tail in an attempt to try and hit.

If Ashwin is the tail then Dhoni would find himself in that predicament very often because he bats lower down the order so whose fault is that.

That is because they have been given the freedom to play their natural game and they know they can play their natural game till Dhoni is there. Dhoni is a far bigger hitter or striker of the ball than most of them except Yuvraj and Dhoni has more shots than Raina both against pacers and spinners. Look at what Raina did in final in an attempt to play aggressive and for me that was the turning point of the match. If Raina had not got out playing that rash, it would not have reached to last over, but after that wickets kept falling so he had to stay and see it through rather than playing shots like Raina did and get out and lose the match. Raina's approach is double-edged sword. Every player in the team has a role to play. Raina is given that role to be aggressive and Dhoni is to pay risk-free cricket because this guy is really mentally strong and has self confidence to get any target once he is in and knows how to stay calm in such situations.

Why are you bringing Raina into the equation if Raina was good enough batsmen he would long time back cemented his spot in top three, Raina is always a hit and miss player that's why in spite of playing so many matches he is still batting where he bats. I never said Dhoni should take Raina's approach. Dhoni bats where he bats because he is not good enough to bat at top 3 and IMO dragging the match to last over is not a good cricketing decision.So to defending Dhoni IMO is ridiculous what happens if that shot Ishant played for two runs get caught then there is no last over at all. Dhoni faced the same bowler in 45 over and chose to take single on first ball and not only that he took single of first ball from next over of Mathews too is that great option.Like I said before Dhoni want to drag match as long as possible and hope for the best and that is not correct one. Bigger hitter does not mean better shot maker.

[rkt.india]

Because it was you who brought Raina's name there first. This what you said.

That's why when we have top order batsmen like Raina batting with Dhoni at end of match we usually win in a canter or Mr Dhoni would drag the match to very end like he did the other day or even in Australia and hope for the best.

Dhoni faced the same bowler in 45 over and chose to take single on first ball and not only that he took single of first ball from next over of Mathews too is that great option.Like I said before Dhoni want to drag match as long as possible and hope for the best and that is not correct one.

Regarding this part, Dhoni's approach is to play risk free cricket in chases. You said he should have finished it earlier but if he had tried to do it and take chances he could have got and match would have been over for us as he was the last batsmen. His approach was to do it with single and double, so he trusted in Bk and VK to take singles because both are fairly good with the bat but they could not do it so and RR went high so it had all come down to him and his hitting abilities.

I never said Dhoni should take Raina's approach. Dhoni bats where he bats because he is not good enough to bat at top 3 and IMO dragging the match to last over is not a good cricketing decision.So to defending Dhoni IMO is ridiculous what happens if that shot Ishant played for two runs get caught then there is no last over at all.

Regarding this, It is not like Dhoni has not batted in top order. He has opened and has also batted and 3 and 4 and won us matches. He averages more at the top. He might look innocuous, but his method is effective. It is not he has to score 10-12 runs. He had to score 50 odd runs with tailenders batting and with your suggestion, match would have been ended earlier if we had batsman batting at the other end and once you bat with tailenders who cannot rotate the strike, it is all down to chance. If he had tried to do finish it earlier playing risky and got out and we lose the match, even then people here would have been bashing him. And the most important thing you are forgetting here is the pitch. It was not the best of the pitch to attack or rotate the strike.

If Ashwin is the tail then Dhoni would find himself in that predicament very often because he bats lower down the order so whose fault is that.

How many runs Ashwin scored? He bats lower down the order because he is the best person to finish a game. You are talking like he has not batted up the order. Most of his big scores are up the order.

Playing big shots does not necessarily mean playing shots in air' date=' You can play shots without hitting ball in air if you have strokes all round the wickets which Dhoni does not have.[/quote'] He has all the shots and can score all around the wicket.

[Crookbond]

No code has to be inserted here. Some times it is difficult to understand whether people are just trolling around here. 50+ average in 82 innings at position 3,4 and 5 but yet not good enough :facepalm:

[Detonator]

A bit old article, but it's good. http://cricketingbrains.blogspot.com/2012/03/who-is-best-finisher-in-odi-cricket.html

[rkt.india]

A bit old article, but it's good. http://cricketingbrains.blogspot.com/2012/03/who-is-best-finisher-in-odi-cricket.html

One comment from the article.

Anonymous says: 8 March 2012 19:12 [Reply To This Comment] Bevan was the best. I say this because for me a batsman coming in at number 6 position in every team in Odis has the finishers role and Bevan has successfully played a finishers role most of the times (according to your research) Dhoni is next especially because of his excellent wc final innings Though I believe the game was pre decided at the highest level (yes I'm saying cricket game is corrupted from top to bottom ) - in fact with all due respect to kohli, I feel the CBseries game between India Sri Lanka was fixed (the tied game) Yet I'm a diehard cricket fan. And I continue watching this corrupted game. - in fact with all due respect to kohli, I feel the CBseries game between India Sri Lanka was fixed (the tied game) Yet I'm a diehard cricket fan. And I continue watching this corrupted game.

:hysterical:

[Raghav_12]

Top scorer in both the innings. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/474474.html This was match saving innings. http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvind/engine/match/258468.html?innings=4;page=2;view=commentary Top scores in first innings for India. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/489228.html Top scorer for India in first innings. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518951.html

If these are the innings all you could come up with then it doesn't do much to dispel the notion that Dhoni as a batsmen is liability overseas and yes, but only in test matches. Other than Lord's 2007, other innings are just okay.

[putrevus]

Because it was you who brought Raina's name there first. This what you said.

I said like Raina because he is currently batting above Dhoni it can be any batsmen.

Regarding this part, Dhoni's approach is to play risk free cricket in chases. You said he should have finished it earlier but if he had tried to do it and take chances he could have got and match would have been over for us as he was the last batsmen. His approach was to do it with single and double, so he trusted in Bk and VK to take singles because both are fairly good with the bat but they could not do it so and RR went high so it had all come down to him and his hitting abilities.

Why is it playing shots means you will automatically get out , if that is case there would no chases and no scores made by any batsmen.There is always an element of risk of getting out for batsman either playing a shot or defending.Just because there is a risk of getting out batsmen must stop playing their shots.

Regarding this, It is not like Dhoni has not batted in top order. He has opened and has also batted and 3 and 4 and won us matches. He averages more at the top. He might look innocuous, but his method is effective.

yes he did but that early in his career basically sent in as one of the guru Greg's pinch hitter experiments and it worked but majority of his career he has batted at no5/no6.

It is not he has to score 10-12 runs. He had to score 50 odd runs with tailenders batting and with your suggestion, match would have been ended earlier if we had batsman batting at the other end and once you bat with tailenders who cannot rotate the strike, it is all down to chance. If he had tried to do finish it earlier playing risky and got out and we lose the match, even then people here would have been bashing him. And the most important thing you are forgetting here is the pitch. It was not the best of the pitch to attack or rotate the strike.

Here pitch was difficult in Adelaide pitch was great and he was batting with Raina and also had batting power play Dhoni faced majority of balls during batting power there and forget hitting boundaries he could not take even singles. What should have been an easy chase Dhoni made into a monumental one. Dhoni is great but he drags things little too far IMO it has worked for him recently but that is wrong approach.