veer Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 I don't want to couple that 0-8 loss with this 0-1 loss. NO matter who captained result would have been the same. It was like perfect storm. Terrible batting/Terrible bowling But would you sack Dhoni for 0-8 defeat?
vvvslaxman Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 But would you sack Dhoni for 0-8 defeat? You should have sacked him then. Since that series Dhoni won CT/ India back to no.2 ranking/ home series whitewash against OZ etc etc. have happened. So using the 0-8 now is not going to work. It is almost like wanting Clarke's head for his 0-7 loss after this 5-0. Won't work. It is going to be the same iwth COok. If COok wins a couple of series from now on , nobody will ask for his head for his 0-5 drubbing. NOt going to happen.
gattaca Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 You should have sacked him then. Since that series Dhoni won CT/ India back to no.2 ranking/ home series whitewash against OZ etc etc. have happened. So using the 0-8 now is not going to work. It is almost like wanting Clarke's head for his 0-7 loss after this 5-0. Won't work. It is going to be the same iwth COok. If COok wins a couple of series from now on ' date=' nobody will ask for his head for his 0-5 drubbing. NOt going to happen.[/quote'] We need to get out of this mindset of combining ODI records with tests. Also Cook is going to win. will you count dhoni to win tests ?
vvvslaxman Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 We need to get out of this mindset of combining ODI records with tests. Also Cook is going to win. will you count dhoni to win tests ? All i am saying you cannot use performance of captain that happened some time ago. Should have done at that time itself. But with 3 or 4 seniors on their way , with youngsters barely trying to make it India had nobody. THey retained him. There was no alternative. Worked for Dhoni. India was still not having a good run. Selectors stepped in. Did a complete overhaul. Since then results are looking better. Got rid of several players. I don't expect either Pujara or Kohli to burden themselves with captaincy. As a start Selectors should take the rDhoni's rights of interfering in selection away from him.
veer Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 You should have sacked him then. Since that series Dhoni won CT/ India back to no.2 ranking/ home series whitewash against OZ etc etc. have happened. So using the 0-8 now is not going to work. It is almost like wanting Clarke's head for his 0-7 loss after this 5-0. Won't work. It is going to be the same iwth COok. If COok wins a couple of series from now on ' date=' nobody will ask for his head for his 0-5 drubbing. NOt going to happen.[/quote'] That's what I mean.. would you have sacked him then? And you are saying yes.. But my counter arguement is that Dhoni was may be 20% of reason we lost that series.. But major culprit was our senior batters and bowling dept.. Both failed awfully. I wouldnt sack Dhoni for that..
vvvslaxman Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 That's what I mean.. would you have sacked him then? And you are saying yes.. But my counter arguement is that Dhoni was may be 20% of reason we lost that series.. But major culprit was our senior batters and bowling dept.. Both failed awfully. I wouldnt sack Dhoni for that.. 20% no way.. lol India did not put up 300 even in one innings out of 16 matches. Probably never happened either in Australia or England ever under any captain. Even during the famous 0-4 drubbing Indai did post some big totals. One of the worst collective slump in batting i have ever seen. In England even Ajit Agarkar, Anil Kumble have got 100s. But in the England tour Dravid made a sizable contribution. Everyone else just did not stand up. Granted England probably put up the very best line up in my memory. Still not scoring 300 even once is pretty bad. Second of all after losing Zak our bowling was like a headless chicken. Bhajji, Mishra, Ishant (after bullying West INdies), Sreesant. Infact Nasser Hussain precisely said INdian weak bowling will be targeted ahead of the series. Only guy India trusted was gone in a matter of few overs. Against Australia even the only one trusted Dravid flopped big time. Just check the batting average of us in that series. Ashwin was at 3.
veer Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 20% no way.. lol India did not put up 300 even in one innings out of 16 matches. Probably never happened either in Australia or England ever under any captain. Even during the famous 0-4 drubbing Indai did post some big totals. One of the worst collective slump in batting i have ever seen. In England even Ajit Agarkar, Anil Kumble have got 100s. But in the England tour Dravid made a sizable contribution. Everyone else just did not stand up. Granted England probably put up the very best line up in my memory. Still not scoring 300 even once is pretty bad. Second of all after losing Zak our bowling was like a headless chicken. Bhajji, Mishra, Ishant (after bullying West INdies), Sreesant. Infact Nasser Hussain precisely said INdian weak bowling will be targeted ahead of the series. Only guy India trusted was gone in a matter of few overs. Against Australia even the only one trusted Dravid flopped big time. Just check the batting average of us in that series. Ashwin was at 3. Exactly, So then how could you blame Dhoni for the slumps??
CG Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 20% no way.. lol India did not put up 300 even in one innings out of 16 matches. Probably never happened either in Australia or England ever under any captain. Even during the famous 0-4 drubbing Indai did post some big totals. One of the worst collective slump in batting i have ever seen. In England even Ajit Agarkar, Anil Kumble have got 100s. But in the England tour Dravid made a sizable contribution. Everyone else just did not stand up. Granted England probably put up the very best line up in my memory. Still not scoring 300 even once is pretty bad. Second of all after losing Zak our bowling was like a headless chicken. Bhajji, Mishra, Ishant (after bullying West INdies), Sreesant. Infact Nasser Hussain precisely said INdian weak bowling will be targeted ahead of the series. Only guy India trusted was gone in a matter of few overs. Against Australia even the only one trusted Dravid flopped big time. Just check the batting average of us in that series. Ashwin was at 3. U cannot just blame it all on seniors.In england in first 2 tests we were in front to give it away and captaincy played a major role in that.Ishant dharma was bowling spell of his life to be taken off and starting with part timers after lunch and dhonis batting in crucial situations failed when a 100 run stand would have made us score 350-400. In australia dhoni could not bat and in first test we were well ahead if dhoni had batted well or attacked to get hussey or ponting instead of spreading the field.Test series are won or lost in moments and that was it.He was selecting the team and he takes credit for wc ,no 1 ranking so he takes the blame for 8-0 also.
vvvslaxman Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 U cannot just blame it all on seniors.In england in first 2 tests we were in front to give it away and captaincy played a major role in that.Ishant dharma was bowling spell of his life to be taken off and starting with part timers after lunch and dhonis batting in crucial situations failed when a 100 run stand would have made us score 350-400. In australia dhoni could not bat and in first test we were well ahead if dhoni had batted well or attacked to get hussey or ponting instead of spreading the field.Test series are won or lost in moments and that was it.He was selecting the team and he takes credit for wc ,no 1 ranking so he takes the blame for 8-0 also. You cannot just blame it all on Dhoni as well. Everyone shares the blame. Ishant sharma bowling spell of his life? Something i must have missed. That is the reason why he is averaging close to 60 in helpful conditions? It was a bit of everything including Dhoni's captaincy. Majority of the blame should fall on batsmen. As India's strength has been traditionally batting. Post kumble we are going to struggle for a very long time no matter which captain you try. If Jadeja can repeat what he did in SA, then we can see more results.
CG Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 You cannot just blame it all on Dhoni as well. Everyone shares the blame. Ishant sharma bowling spell of his life? Something i must have missed. That is the reason why he is averaging close to 60 in helpful conditions? It was a bit of everything including Dhoni's captaincy. Majority of the blame should fall on batsmen. As India's strength has been traditionally batting. Post kumble we are going to struggle for a very long time no matter which captain you try. If Jadeja can repeat what he did in SA' date=' then we can see more results.[/quote'] If he took the credit for wc wins,no1 test rating,t20 wc surely he takes the majority of blame .In cricket captain is supreme authority, yeah u missed much,Ishant sharma had destroyed english middle order in the 2nd innings of 1st test with 4 quick wickets to reduce them to 100/6 only to be not given another spell after the break.
fineleg Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 veer, You may be a M$D fan, but he sucks big time as a captain (esp in Tests).
rkt.india Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 That's what I mean.. would you have sacked him then? And you are saying yes.. But my counter arguement is that Dhoni was may be 20% of reason we lost that series.. But major culprit was our senior batters and bowling dept.. Both failed awfully. I wouldnt sack Dhoni for that.. Most of the senior batsmen are out but Dhoni is still there along with Ishant and Zak. They all 3 should not be there in tests.
AbhishekS Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 I don't want to couple that 0-8 loss with this 0-1 loss. NO matter who captained result would have been the same. It was like perfect storm. Terrible batting/Terrible bowling The top 3 run scorers were Indians, still we lost the series - tells a lot about how bad the captaincy was. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
Muloghonto Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Most of the senior batsmen are out but Dhoni is still there along with Ishant and Zak. They all 3 should not be there in tests. Dhoni most definitely merits selection in tests as a wicketkeeeper-batsman, even overseas.
rkt.india Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Dhoni most definitely merits selection in tests as a wicketkeeeper-batsman' date=' even overseas.[/quote'] No. He is not good enough overseas at least, not even as a WK let alone as a batsman, good enough in SC.
Muloghonto Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Exactly. This desi pattern is going to be around forever. Lets say Kohli or Pujara takes over the leadership, they would be given a phainty after every single match, let alone a series and those noble words followed by it, 'anyone but not him'. Dhoni is certainly not the best Test captain around but his successor isn't going to turn the world around either. The rotation of players and being partial to certain inviduals has been a norm in Indian cricket and at some points, world cricket as well. These sort of Indian fans mentality over their players, captain and the team is going to be around forever. At time, they go way too far with their criticism and rant out some gibberish conspiracy followed by some obnoxious and baseless statements which every captain will have to cope with. The funniest part is fans trying to claim that so and so captain would have brought a revolutionary change to our bowling attack, while they fail to understand that it has always sucked and until some point it will continue to do so. Yes, Dhoni totally sucks when it comes to assembling a good fast bowling line up, but a new captain won't be making much difference either. I agree with MTC, Dhoni has gone stale, its certainly time for us to pick a new guy to lead us it Test but this trend of bashing captains after every single game is going to continue. Putting every single action of a captain under microscope is not only an Indian passtime. Yes, we are excessive about it but almost all skippers from teams not doing well tend to have every single action of theirs scrutinized. Mike Atherton couldnt look at the umpire without some Pom having issues with it, everything that Carl Hooper or Brian Lara did as captain was wrong according to some and Pakis love to criticize their captain as having brains less than a goat every single time their team loses. It is an essential skill for a captain to make a bubble around themselves to let their form not suffer as captains. Very few are capable of this- Dhoni, Smith and Clarke are the only ones currently who can do this. IMO, the biggest arguments against having Dhoni as captain in Tests are that: a) he is already a wicketkeeper batsman, to make him the captain as well, is too much on one plate for a long period of time b) Wicket-keepers have traditionally held the role of cheerleader & chirper of the team, its kind of awkward for a captain to go 'shabaash, shabaash' after every single ball and then remove the bowler from the attack or keep chirping away at the batsman while also thinking about tactics of the game. But then again, as far as test cricket goes, there are no obvious candidates right now. Kohli is the only alternative and he could turn into 'captain imperious' ala Smith, especially if India unearths a few good bowling talents or he could totally be the 'next Botham', where everything he tries seems stupid and his form suffers too..
special K Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Should give the captaincy to Ishant Sharma. He averages almost as much as Dhoni in tests with the ball.
Muloghonto Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 No. He is not good enough overseas at least' date=' not even as a WK let alone as a batsman, good enough in SC.[/quote'] He is definitely good enough as a wicketkeeper in any condition, as a batsman outside the SC, there is no keeper in India who can lay claim to be a better batsman than Dhoni either.
Lord Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 if the next captain leads our team to 8-0 making idiotic decisions,keep giving chances to underperformers and not contribute in his primary role,then he'd deserve all the 'hate' too
vvvslaxman Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Kohli's IPL captaincy makes me nervous lol . Pujara i am yet to see. If he is good. he is the next candidate.
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