Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[Mosher]

13 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Anyone watched Anshul Kamboj bowl today?

No. Which team does he play for? 

[Sgattick10]

18 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Thanks, totally forgot about that test...Australia actually touted both him and Pattinson as one for the future.

Pattinson sadly couldn't go much ahead due to his fitness, but Cummins did.

Oh yeah Pattinson was more talked about then Cummins I think.. What a loss

[Adamant]

37 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Such players don't hang on trees, from where you can just pick them up and use them.

Again, if a bowler has the ability to bowl fast and has the other skills only lacking in execution. One need to bring them under the wings as execution can be improved.

Pat Cummins is a prime example of that, Australia marked him as one for the future since 2012 when he was just 18 yrs old and completely raw...now Pat Cummins is a star performer in 2/3 formats and a useful player in T20.

Pat Cummins was'nt just a guy who can bowl fast, please fool someone else. Billy Stanlake is a guy who bowls just fast. Now tell me how his career is going?
That's what experts here don't possess, they don't have the ability to differentiate between a young Pat Cummins and a young Billy Stanlake.

No, not all who can bowl fast have the ability to become great, there's things like seam position, the nip they obtain,action, the bounce they get, whether they bowl a heavy ball or not, how much swing they obtain, do they have the ability to hit the seam and obtain movement.
All these things can't just be taught, it depends a lot on the overall mechanics of the individual’s body.

Thomson was insanely fast , Lillee was slower than him, why did'nt Thomson learn everything from Lillee and become as good as him? considering he had all the pace in the world.
 

We have our own examples in Yadav and Aaron, kyu nahi seeekh paaye ye kuch? pace to tha. Because they could never become great bowlers as their bowling was never threatening and had very little control. 

We have many floaters -> those who bowl 140+ but the ball just comes on to the bat very nicely, there's no extra bounce or seam movement they obtain after ball hits the ground, their ball's trajectory can be carted just by looking at their hand position when they deliver the ball, such bowlers are dime a dozen and we have plenty of them 

 

37 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

A raw Umran caused havoc in IPL just under limited guidance of Steyn...imagine what he could do if he get longer support.

A raw Tyagi can fire Yorkers after Yorkers against Pooran, Markram, Hooda and Allen defending 4 in the over..people talk about Bhuvi saving some runs in last over but no one talks about encouraging him despite being inexperienced.

I have always said that there are three bowling talents in India apart from those we already play for us ->
Karthik Tyagi
Umran
Prasidh Krishna

It's just that two of them are raw and need more work, which they are getting in IPL and domestics.
While Prasidh plays for India in ODIs and is in test squad also. He is not suited for t20s as of now, why do you expect TM to pick him when he gets thrashed in t20s?

All others are pretender- (I haven't seen much of Mohsin , so won;t talk about him here)

[Adamant]

del

Edited October 30, 2022 by Adamant

[Adamant]

27 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Pattinson was also quite good ,played against us in that 11/12 tour to Aus

Also in 2013 when they visited us

Bowled Sehwag with an 150k full pitched delivery in scorching Chepauk

Then got injured and was never the same,huge potential

 

31 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Thanks, totally forgot about that test...Australia actually touted both him and Pattinson as one for the future.

Pattinson sadly couldn't go much ahead due to his fitness, but Cummins did.

Please learn to differentiate  between Pat Cummins (or Pattinson) and Billy Stanlake.

All those who have pace can't become good bowlers and no, they can't be taught everything else.

That is a total bogus logic.

[Suhaan]

3 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Pat Cummins was'nt just a guy who can bowl fast, please fool someone else. Billy Stanlake is a guy who bowls just fast. Now tell me how his career is going?
That's what experts here don't possess, they don't have the ability to differentiate between a young Pat Cummins and a young Billy Stanlake.

No, not all who can bowl fast have the ability to become great, there's things like seam position, the nip they obtain,action, the bounce they get, whether they bowl a heavy ball or not, how much swing they obtain, do they have the ability to hit the seam and obtain movement.
All these things can't just be taught, it depends a lot on the overall mechanics of the individual’s body.

Thomson was insanely fast , Lillee was slower than him, why did'nt Thomson learn everything from Lillee and become as good as him? considering he had all the pace in the world.
 

We have our own examples in Yadav and Aaron, kyu nahi seeekh paaye ye kuch? pace to tha. Because they could never become great bowlers as their bowling was never threatening and had very little control. 

We have many floaters -> those who bowl 140+ but the ball just comes on to the bat very nicely, there's no extra bounce or seam movement they obtain after ball hits the ground, their ball's trajectory can be carted just by looking at their hand position when they deliver the ball, such bowlers are dime a dozen and we have plenty of them 

 

I have always said that there are three bowling talents in India apart from those we already play for us ->
Karthik Tyagi
Umran
Prasidh Krishna

It's just that two of them are raw and need more work, which they are getting in IPL and domestics.
While Prasidh plays for India in ODIs and is in test squad also. He is not suited for t20s as of now, why do you expect TM to pick him when he gets thrashed in t20s?

All others are pretender- (I haven't seen much of Mohsin , so won;t talk about him here)

Itna bada post to explain which everyone already know about

Trundling without control or pace without control are bad

[the don]

147 kph yorker from Wasim jr cleans up the dutch batter, why the eff did they now play him against India at MCG.

[the don]

Another 146 kph yorker another batmsan castled.

[Swag]

1 minute ago, the don said:

147 kph yorker from Wasim jr cleans up the dutch batter, why the eff did they now play him against India at MCG.

because it is Kohli and not some accountant Pringle facing up 

[the don]

9 minutes ago, Swag said:

because it is Kohli and not some accountant Pringle facing up 

8 overs of spin on that pitch was suicide.

[Suhaan]

3 minutes ago, the don said:

147 kph yorker from Wasim jr cleans up the dutch batter, why the eff did they now play him against India at MCG.

Achha

[Suhaan]

2 minutes ago, the don said:

8 overs of spin on that pitch was suicide.

Match was already lost by the Rauf over

[singhvivek141]

48 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Pat Cummins was'nt just a guy who can bowl fast, please fool someone else. Billy Stanlake is a guy who bowls just fast. Now tell me how his career is going?
That's what experts here don't possess, they don't have the ability to differentiate between a young Pat Cummins and a young Billy Stanlake.

No, not all who can bowl fast have the ability to become great, there's things like seam position, the nip they obtain,action, the bounce they get, whether they bowl a heavy ball or not, how much swing they obtain, do they have the ability to hit the seam and obtain movement.
All these things can't just be taught, it depends a lot on the overall mechanics of the individual’s body.

I am struggling to understand what different I said ? 
Kartik, Umran, Kuldeep they all have pace+skills, they're not pace retards like Wahab Riaz, Mohammad Sami, Aizaz Cheema or Usman Shinwari. About Billy Stanlake, I haven't seen much but he's a bounce dependent bowler (like Morne Morkel), unaware of his other skills.

Umesh is still a much better bowler than Riaz or Sami and at Gul's level (though different format's), he gets reverse and can swing the new ball...Aaron also used to have skills but post changing his action he lost the reverse that he had. Also, Umesh's career turn around under Kohli's captaincy, while Aaron kept falling back..that highlights importance of backing from a captain as well.

 

48 minutes ago, Adamant said:

I have always said that there are three bowling talents in India apart from those we already play for us ->
Karthik Tyagi
Umran
Prasidh Krishna

It's just that two of them are raw and need more work, which they are getting in IPL and domestics.
While Prasidh plays for India in ODIs and is in test squad also. He is not suited for t20s as of now, why do you expect TM to pick him when he gets thrashed in t20s?

All others are pretender- (I haven't seen much of Mohsin , so won;t talk about him here)

They do, but don't you think they should be given more attention because of their raw potential, when Aussies can elevate Pat Cummins ahead of the race because of his talent, why not BCCI.
 

Edited October 30, 2022 by singhvivek141

[the don]

46 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Match was already lost by the Rauf over

4 more overs of pace in the middle would have mattered.

[Mesky99]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

Pat Cummins was'nt just a guy who can bowl fast, please fool someone else. Billy Stanlake is a guy who bowls just fast. Now tell me how his career is going?
That's what experts here don't possess, they don't have the ability to differentiate between a young Pat Cummins and a young Billy Stanlake.

No, not all who can bowl fast have the ability to become great, there's things like seam position, the nip they obtain,action, the bounce they get, whether they bowl a heavy ball or not, how much swing they obtain, do they have the ability to hit the seam and obtain movement.
All these things can't just be taught, it depends a lot on the overall mechanics of the individual’s body.

Thomson was insanely fast , Lillee was slower than him, why did'nt Thomson learn everything from Lillee and become as good as him? considering he had all the pace in the world.
 

We have our own examples in Yadav and Aaron, kyu nahi seeekh paaye ye kuch? pace to tha. Because they could never become great bowlers as their bowling was never threatening and had very little control. 

We have many floaters -> those who bowl 140+ but the ball just comes on to the bat very nicely, there's no extra bounce or seam movement they obtain after ball hits the ground, their ball's trajectory can be carted just by looking at their hand position when they deliver the ball, such bowlers are dime a dozen and we have plenty of them 

 

I have always said that there are three bowling talents in India apart from those we already play for us ->
Karthik Tyagi
Umran
Prasidh Krishna

It's just that two of them are raw and need more work, which they are getting in IPL and domestics.
While Prasidh plays for India in ODIs and is in test squad also. He is not suited for t20s as of now, why do you expect TM to pick him when he gets thrashed in t20s?

All others are pretender- (I haven't seen much of Mohsin , so won;t talk about him here)

I don't think you watch much domestic cricket, there's gaurav Yadav, a attacking seamer with a good bumper and a good exponent of inswing, am pretty sure he would have played international cricket by now for most teams bar SA and aus, a bowler like him could easily be developed into a quality test pacer in India conditions, how TM and selectors lack foresight and too many good pacers are kept away toiling, dayal another with great attributes, gets consistent high bounce from good length, even his 137kph short length stuff had Russel in real trouble during the Ipl, this is what you look in bowlers, consistency is learnt after,Siraj spent 2 years with the A team and became a complete pacer.

 

[Adamant]

1 hour ago, Suhaan said:

Itna bada post to explain which everyone already know about

Trundling without control or pace without control are bad

You were saying that if someone has speed, he can learn other skills.
That's wrong.

[Lone Wolf]

10 minutes ago, the don said:

4 more overs of pace in the middle would have mattered.

Doesn't matter India didn't play Thakur or Harshal for Axar too. 

[express bowling]

47 minutes ago, Adamant said:

No, not all who can bowl fast have the ability to become great, there's things like seam position, the nip they obtain,action, the bounce they get, whether they bowl a heavy ball or not, how much swing they obtain, do they have the ability to hit the seam and obtain movement.
All these things can't just be taught, it depends a lot on the overall mechanics of the individual’s body.

 

 

 

That is very true.

 

But I see atleast 5 new and young Indian pacers who are both quick and have many of these qualities.

 

 

KARTICK  TYAGI ....

 

Qualities ....

 

.. High pace

.. Tall

.. Good natural bounce

.. Good seam position

.. Bowls a heavy ball

.. Aggressive Fast bowler's attitude

.. Good temperament under pressure

.. Bowls with intensity

.. Gets inswing

.. Seams the ball both ways 

.. Cracking indipping yorker

.. Very nasty bouncer

.. Decent slower ball and slower ball bouncer

.. Good death bowler 

 

Improvements needed ....

 

.. Play lots of FC, List A and T20 matches

.. Improve his stock ball

 

 

KULDEEP  SEN  ....

 

Qualities ....

 

.. High pace

.. Tall

.. Steep bounce

.. Aggressive Fast bowler's attitude

.. Gets the channel ball the rear up nastily from length while seamingly away

.. Bowls a heavy ball

.. Gets big and consistent inswing

.. Reverses the ball at pace

.. Seams the ball away 

.. Good indipping yorker

.. Good bouncer which he can keep on bowling 

 

Improvements needed ....

 

.. Play more FC, List A and T20 matches

.. Improve his line and stop giving width or bowling on the pads. If he can do this then hd will be a top quality bowler.

 

 

 

UMRAN  MALIK  ....

 

Qualities ....

 

.. Very High pace

.. Very very skiddy

.. Aggressive Fast bowler's attitude

.. Good seam position and ball release 

.. Gets late inswing from time to time

.. Can bowl outswingers too

.. Cracking yorker with late indip

.. Nasty bouncer on occasions 

 

Improvements needed ....

 

.. Play lots of FC, List A and T20 matches

.. Develop a stock ball ASAP .. this is the key 

.. Practice getting his bouncers above the shoulders of the batsman on most occasions and cut down on bowling long hops.

 

 

PRASIDH  KRISHNA  ....

 

Qualities ....

 

.. Good pace

.. Tall

.. Very steep bounce and carry. This is his USP.

.. Bowls a heavy ball

.. Good channel ball.

.. Gets outswing

.. Seams the ball in.

.. Good bouncer

.. Decent indipping yorker

 

Improvements needed ....

 

.. Play more FC matches 

.. Improve bowling fitness and work on sustaining pace 

.. He tends to lose intensity and focus from time to time. Needs to work on concentration.

.. Improve his slower ball. Bowl it into the pitch rather than floating it up at 98 kph

.. Practice his straight yorkers more rather than always trying wide yorkers

.. 

 

 

MOHSIN  KHAN  ....

 

Qualities ....

 

.. Good pace

.. Tall

.. Steep bounce and good carry

.. Bowls a heavy ball

.. Gets inswing for LHB or Bowls outswing to RHB

.. Seams the ball

.. Decent bouncer

.. Good slower ball

.. Good both with new ball and at the death 

 

Improvements needed ....

 

.. Play more FC, List A and T20 matches

.. Work on bowling fitness and work on sustaining pace.

.. Try to bowl at full pace on most occasions. He dometimes bowls within himself.

.. Improve his yorkers

.. It would bd great if he could bowl inswingers to RHB

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Thomson was insanely fast , Lillee was slower than him, why did'nt Thomson learn everything from Lillee and become as good as him? considering he had all the pace in the world.
 

 

 

 

Thomson's role was different.

 

He was entrusted with scaring the batters during the " no helmet era ".

[Adamant]

11 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

That is very true.

 

But I see atleast 5 new and young Indian pacers who are both quick and have many of these qualities.

 

 

KARTICK  TYAGI ....

 

Qualities ....

 

.. High pace

.. Tall

.. Good natural bounce

.. Good seam position

.. Bowls a heavy ball

.. Aggressive Fast bowler's attitude

.. Good temperament under pressure

.. Bowls with intensity

.. Gets inswing

.. Seams the ball both ways 

.. Cracking indipping yorker

.. Very nasty bouncer

.. Decent slower ball and slower ball bouncer

.. Good death bowler 

 

Improvements needed ....

 

.. Play lots of FC, List A and T20 matches

.. Improve his stock ball

 

 

KULDEEP  SEN  ....

 

Qualities ....

 

.. High pace

.. Tall

.. Steep bounce

.. Aggressive Fast bowler's attitude

.. Gets the channel ball the rear up nastily from length while seamingly away

.. Bowls a heavy ball

.. Gets big and consistent inswing

.. Reverses the ball at pace

.. Seams the ball away 

.. Good indipping yorker

.. Good bouncer which he can keep on bowling 

 

Improvements needed ....

 

.. Play more FC, List A and T20 matches

.. Improve his line and stop giving width or bowling on the pads. If he can do this then hd will be a top quality bowler.

 

 

 

UMRAN  MALIK  ....

 

Qualities ....

 

.. Very High pace

.. Very very skiddy

.. Aggressive Fast bowler's attitude

.. Good seam position and ball release 

.. Gets late inswing from time to time

.. Can bowl outswingers too

.. Cracking yorker with late indip

.. Nasty bouncer on occasions 

 

Improvements needed ....

 

.. Play lots of FC, List A and T20 matches

.. Develop a stock ball ASAP .. this is the key 

.. Practice getting his bouncers above the shoulders of the batsman on most occasions and cut down on bowling long hops.

 

 

PRASIDH  KRISHNA  ....

 

Qualities ....

 

.. Good pace

.. Tall

.. Very steep bounce and carry. This is his USP.

.. Bowls a heavy ball

.. Good channel ball.

.. Gets outswing

.. Seams the ball in.

.. Good bouncer

.. Decent indipping yorker

 

Improvements needed ....

 

.. Play more FC matches 

.. Improve bowling fitness and work on sustaining pace 

.. He tends to lose intensity and focus from time to time. Needs to work on concentration.

.. Improve his slower ball. Bowl it into the pitch rather than floating it up at 98 kph

.. Practice his straight yorkers more rather than always trying wide yorkers

.. 

 

 

MOHSIN  KHAN  ....

 

Qualities ....

 

.. Good pace

.. Tall

.. Steep bounce and good carry

.. Bowls a heavy ball

.. Gets inswing for LHB or Bowls outswing to RHB

.. Seams the ball

.. Decent bouncer

.. Good slower ball

.. Good both with new ball and at the death 

 

Improvements needed ....

 

.. Play more FC, List A and T20 matches

.. Work on bowling fitness and work on sustaining pace.

.. Try to bowl at full pace on most occasions. He dometimes bowls within himself.

.. Improve his yorkers

.. It would bd great if he could bowl inswingers to RHB

 

 

 

 

 

Thomson's role was different.

 

He was entrusted with scaring the batters during the " no helmet era ".

I agree with your evaluation of Karthik,Umran and Prasidh. (Haven't seen Mohsin)
The thing is Umran and Kartik should play in India A and IPL, they need some more time.
Prasidh as of now is sadly not a t20i bowler and that can happen , even Pat Cummins has'nt cracked the t20 code yet.

So I clearly don't see how our current t20 lineup could have been improved, except for Siraj in main squad.

[Suhaan]

59 minutes ago, Adamant said:

You were saying that if someone has speed, he can learn other skills

That is also correct,pace is not learned but control is(can be)