Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[Khota]

6 minutes ago, vishalvirsingh said:

even Srinath could generate truly fast speeds due to his tall height ..he had fast action and was tall thats why i guess he did ball till 150k..it is definitely true that height helps  a lot but it depends on multiple other factors as 

 

Run UP

Action

Shoulder Strength

and few more reasons...so u cant just fight it out on just height.

True. But if all else is equal height tips the balance.

[Khota]

2 hours ago, Vilander said:

this is a good post. 

 

This will be a bit of overanalysis, but it will be interesting to look at why there is this perception that taller bolwers are not fast with lesser effort than shorter ones, may be its because of sampling and incidental. Imagine a walsh or mcgrath or similar tall bowlers many were medium pace, imagine some one like tremlet or the holder probably was very muscular but not built like lean wirey fastbowler like Steyn starc etc not motivated enough and did not generate pace. I remember harmison and flintoff Gillespie even Ishant could easily up their pace with effort balls.

 

May be it will be interesting to note if taller bowlers had net faster fast balls than their stock balls, but this data will be highly subjective and might not be available.

That is why if you look at tall bowlers sometimes they look slow and lazy but reality is it taking them less effort to deliver.

[express bowling]

I guess the advantage that the really tall pacers have regarding having longer levers is usually offset by extra stress on tendons, ligaments and cartilages.

 

The fastest bowlers of their respective eras for the last 90 years have all been betwen 5'8" to 6'4".  Very tall and very short pacers have not been able to bowl quick for that long.

 

5'8" and 5'9" - Larwood, Hall, Trueman, Tyson, 

 

5'10" and 5'11" - Thomson, Waqar,  

 

6'0" and 6'1" - Shoaib, Lee, Tait, Roberts

 

62" and 6'3" - Donald, Srinath, 

 

6'4" - Holding, Starc

 

I guess 5'8" to 6'4"  is the optimum height range for bowling really fast.

[vishalvirsingh]

36 minutes ago, Khota said:

True. But if all else is equal height tips the balance.

Agreed

[vishalvirsingh]

i saw Srinath bowling in a test match, i feel he is the ideal for a fast bowler as he was SLim even when he was about to retire, he had big shoulders, he had very long hands, seriously long hands .

i was standing n seeing him where he was standing in the boundary( was a lethargic fielder, always relaxed on boundary), his hands were longer than mine, i am 5 11" and he must be 6 4" even taller than DONALD, 

he ran like a HARE when he was on his bowling run up and while fielding he ran comfortably.

he had very fastish round arm action like kagiso rabada and the bounce he generated even in wankhade was so much that it was foolish when prabhakar and kapil were played ahead of him in test matches, they looked pedestrian and lowly trundlers when srinath came.

rabada and srinath had similiar structure, so for me that kind of height and slim n strong physique generates speed n bounce.

ideal fast bowler physique -srinath and rabada, i believe he started eating eggs later and generated strength.

[express bowling]

50 minutes ago, vishalvirsingh said:

but it depends on multiple other factors as 

 

Run UP

Action

Shoulder Strength

and few more reasons...so u cant just fight it out on just height.

 

Flexibility helps a lot in bowling fast too.

 

Another factor is hyper-extension of the bowling arm , if any.

 

 

[Rightarmfast]

The initial topic was, rather the statement of contention was ' pace has nothing to do with height'.  The statement in itself is rubbish. It is true that some of the average height bowlers ( average height by European standards , Indian average height is 5'6', a nordic average height would be 6) , ie above 5'9' but less than 6 have been pretty quick. But lets not forget that a bowler like Ajit Agarkar, who was about 5'7' - 5'8' would have surely bowled around 150 and thereabouts had he been 6 or above. Ajit Agarkar was pretty nippy and was 2nd fastest Indian behind Srinath. However, it was very evident even visibly that he used to put in that much extra. And that in itself explains how much height can help!

 

As far as height advantage is concerned, a difference of 1-2 inches wouldnt make much difference. But a difference of 5-6 inches does make a big difference.

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

extra stress on tendons, ligaments and cartilages.

this could explain tall but big units like Tremlet,Pollard,Holder,Pankaj being slower than tall but lighter units Harmison,Ghillespie,Ishant,Morkel etc.

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, Vilander said:

this could explain tall but big units like Tremlet,Pollard,Holder,Pankaj being slower than tall but lighter units Harmison,Ghillespie,Ishant,Morkel etc.

Yes.

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, Vilander said:

this could explain tall but big units like Tremlet,Pollard,Holder,Pankaj being slower than tall but lighter units Harmison,Ghillespie,Ishant,Morkel etc.

its all about fast twitch fibers. if you have them, you will bowl fast irrespective of how tall or short you are or how poor your bowling action is. Good bowling action and good bio-mechanics can maximize your pace, can extract max pace out of you, but they cannot make you express pacer.  This explains why Mohit Sharma with such good runup, action, and bio-mechanics refined under Ian Pont cannot bowl genuine fast.  He did increase his pace from 125-135 odd after work with Ian but could not become genuine fast.  Bowlers need to work on enhancing those fast twitch fibers in their training.

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

The initial topic was, rather the statement of contention was ' pace has nothing to do with height'.  The statement in itself is rubbish. It is true that some of the average height bowlers ( average height by European standards , Indian average height is 5'6', a nordic average height would be 6) , ie above 5'9' but less than 6 have been pretty quick. But lets not forget that a bowler like Ajit Agarkar, who was about 5'7' - 5'8' would have surely bowled around 150 and thereabouts had he been 6 or above. Ajit Agarkar was pretty nippy and was 2nd fastest Indian behind Srinath. However, it was very evident even visibly that he used to put in that much extra. And that in itself explains how much height can help!

 

As far as height advantage is concerned, a difference of 1-2 inches wouldnt make much difference. But a difference of 5-6 inches does make a big difference.

This is an absurd claim with no basis. Do you remember Tino Best and Fidel Edwards? how tall were they? They both bowled 155KPH. Fidel Edwards's quickest was 157KPH.  Brett Lee and Akhtar were the quickest ever bowler and they are not called tall. regarding Agarkar, you certainly have seen him and he would barely put much effort.  he would just run in like jogging and bowl unlike Srinath who used run harder and used to put much more effort in his bowling than Agarkar.

[Rightarmfast]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

This is an absurd claim with no basis. Do you remember Tino Best and Fidel Edwards? how tall were they? They both bowled 155KPH. Fidel Edwards's quickest was 157KPH.  Brett Lee and Akhtar were the quickest ever bowler and they are not called tall. regarding Agarkar, you certainly have seen him and he would barely put much effort.  he would just run in like jogging and bowl unlike Srinath who used run harder and used to put much more effort in his bowling than Agarkar.

Your words just prove my point that you fail to understand bio mechanics and even bowling action. Any one who thinks Agarkar's action was simple and he did not put effort has to do a lot of study!

[Rightarmfast]

Umesh bowling quick. Speed gun shows 140 but I dont know why, I feel he is bowling around 144-145.

[rkt.india]

42 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Your words just prove my point that you fail to understand bio mechanics and even bowling action. Any one who thinks Agarkar's action was simple and he did not put effort has to do a lot of study!

i did not say his action was simple or not. I just said he would run in gingerly and bowl 140 while Srinath will run in faster. Its obvious if you run in slow, you will have to put more effort at the delivery stride. Take an example of Kemar Roach who when first came in would just jog in but his effort at the bowling crease was huge.  while other example is same height bowler Dale Steyn whose effort at the delivery stride is not as huge as Roach was but runs is harder when he bowls fast. 

 

Regarding bio-mechanics and bowling action, I follow Ian Pont's memo and have even chatted with him several times and I for sure know what bio-mechanics and bowling action is.  There are five most important things in a good bowling action which are hang time, stretch reflex, shoulder and hip separation, braced front leg, and right alignment of these four things for a bowler to maximize his pace.

Edited March 17, 2018 by rkt.india

[MCcricket]

6 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

i did not say his action was simple or not. I just said he would run in gingerly and bowl 140 while Srinath will run in faster. Its obvious if you run in slow, you will have to put more effort at the delivery stride. Take an example of Kemar Roach who when first came in would just jog in but his effort at the bowling crease was huge.  while other example is same height bowler Dale Steyn whose effort at the delivery stride is not as huge as Roach was but runs is harder when he bowls fast. 

 

Regarding bio-mechanics and bowling action, I follow Ian Pont's memo and have even chatted with him several times and I for sure know what bio-mechanics and bowling action is.     

I agree its a combination of factors , and not simple as being tall will make you quicker, most important factor is fast twitch fiber, next core strength, action, bio mechanics, its efficiency, Nagarkotti is goid enuff even if he does t add an inch to be a world class bowler, because he has pace , serious pace, is fit, lithe, athletic, has good action which gives him good bounce and has good control.

[rkt.india]

9 minutes ago, MCcricket said:

I agree its a combination of factors , and not simple as being tall will make you quicker, most important factor is fast twitch fiber, next core strength, action, bio mechanics, its efficiency, Nagarkotti is goid enuff even if he does t add an inch to be a world class bowler, because he has pace , serious pace, is fit, lithe, athletic, has good action which gives him good bounce and has good control.

Yes, being tall does not automatically make you fast or faster than shorter bowlers.  If you are tall, you might be stronger than shorter bowlers, might have more muscle mass, but strength does not equate to pace.  Generating is pace is about stretch reflex and elasticity of the muscle. when you bowl a ball stretching your bowling arm, it creates a phenomena called stretch reflex creates an elastic effect, like when you use a catapult and stretch the rubber back and release it and stone travels really fast.  why do the stone travel fast and far because of the elasticity of the rubber.  This is the same mechanism that is in play when we bowl.  Our fast twitch fibers, which are thinner and stronger in nature with more elasticity create the same catapult effect.  Because those fibers are very thin, we see some of the thinnest, leanest guys bowling very quick like Nagarkoti, young Brett lee, young Shoaib and Mohd Zahid, young Shane Bond.

[express bowling]

Nasty bouncer by Umesh hits Jayant on the thumb while fending near his face.

[express bowling]

Umesh seems to be back in rhythm after a rough 6 months.  Bowled well in Deodhar Trophy and bowling well now.

 

Bowling 137 k to 142 k in this spell and reversing the ball regularly. Has bowled some good bouncers.

Edited March 17, 2018 by express bowling

[Insidious]

Gurbani, should be immediately drafted into indian test team. If he can move the ball on this flat pitch in nagpur, he can definitely move it around in england. 

[Khota]

5 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Yes, being tall does not automatically make you fast or faster than shorter bowlers.  If you are tall, you might be stronger than shorter bowlers, might have more muscle mass, but strength does not equate to pace.  Generating is pace is about stretch reflex and elasticity of the muscle. when you bowl a ball stretching your bowling arm, it creates a phenomena called stretch reflex creates an elastic effect, like when you use a catapult and stretch the rubber back and release it and stone travels really fast.  why do the stone travel fast and far because of the elasticity of the rubber.  This is the same mechanism that is in play when we bowl.  Our fast twitch fibers, which are thinner and stronger in nature with more elasticity create the same catapult effect.  Because those fibers are very thin, we see some of the thinnest, leanest guys bowling very quick like Nagarkoti, young Brett lee, young Shoaib and Mohd Zahid, young Shane Bond.

Assuming the tall and short bowler have same muscle/twitch fibre etc and can generate the same arm speed. Key is the arm speed here and then the tall bowler has a huge mechanical advantage over the short one proportional to his height.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Khota