10 years of MS Dhoni - Debate thread

[bulbul]

Abey Moniac don't derail thread, you have enough threads for Sharma's. :banghead:

[Sidhoni]

Ok this is my final post on this thread.........real-sies....... I asked one simple thing of Dhoni fans in this thread.......I also explained why I asked so.......twice.......you asked me a few questions earlier......to which, I feel, I replied in a logical manner....... Ever since......Dhoni fans have been trying to shift the goal posts in any serious discussion on this thread.......in an earlier post.......you were saying that Dhoni's fitness should make him an ATG......what kind of topi logic is this? Greatness is measured by on-field achievements.......not by the number of jumping jacks a player can do...... Dhoni has his on-field achievements.......no one is denying that......but he also has his on-field failures and miseries.........he is human........treat him like one.......

I never said fitness makes him ATG. Why do you always have to make stuff up? There are many things contributing to his greatness and fitness is one of them. Being a wk he has to do countless squats and then come out to bat. To do this in all 3 formats plus IPL requires a lot of fitness and determination. He plays through little niggles here and there too.

[maniac]

I never said fitness makes him ATG. Why do you always have to make stuff up? There are many things contributing to his greatness and fitness is one of them. Being a wk he has to do countless squats and then come out to bat. To do this in all 3 formats plus IPL requires a lot of fitness and determination. He plays through little niggles here and there too.

what about his fingers and his non inclusion of bowlers who bowl quick? You can answer that if you think it is a "healthy question" else more than welcome to ignore it.

[Sidhoni]

what about his fingers and his non inclusion of bowlers who bowl quick? You can answer that if you think it is a "healthy question" else more than welcome to ignore it.

So you guys are really into that theory? I thought that was just trolling. Anyway why do you think Aaron played in England and Australia if Dhoni thinks his fingers hurt when keeping to him. How old are you man? Have you ever played the game at some professional stage? I doubt it if you say things like that.

[Austin 3:!6]

Ishant was a man of the match in a test at lords and has 2 man of the series in test cricket....Again I am sure Kohli would swap a meaningless stat like fastest 5000 in ODI's in a heartbeat to acheive something like that. Ishant has an average that deservingly at times gets ridiculed-fair enough and that is why I have rated him at a 4.5 and not higher. Similarly Ashwin is one of the fastest 100 Test wickets for an Indian and 2 test centuries but again mediocre in LOI's and overseas tests,so atleast he is rated upto level 5. Rohit has had an average test career so far but as you said 2 200's in ODI and worlrecords are incredible feats that is why he even gets a rating. I am not Wisden or some cricket scholar,I am just a normal fan and that is my perspective and people have the right to debate my rating.

So based on that Lords test and 2 MOS, you think Ishant and Kohli in the same pedestal? :cantstop: Dude just look at Ishant Sharma's avg and strike rate. And what do you mean by Kohli ranking up scores in meaningless games? I think majority of his centuries are while chasing and finishing off games. You can have preference for Ishant but saying that Kohli is one the same league is laughable. :haha: If Virat Kohli stops playing cricket tomorrow, he will still be consider as an ATG. If Ishant plays till 40 he will still be Ishant.

[maniac]

So you guys are really into that theory? I thought that was just trolling. Anyway why do you think Aaron played in England and Australia if Dhoni thinks his fingers hurt when keeping to him. How old are you man? Have you ever played the game at some professional stage? I doubt it if you say things like that.

I am 21 thank you very much and no I was never a professional cricketer doesn't mean I can't debate or give my opinion about cricket as a fan....I am sure as an international or a Ranji cricketer you hear such opinions a lot from normal fans right Sidhoni??? Any ways there was clear back lash of him 1)not playing fast bowlers and prefering trundlers 2)Standing way back for 130+ bowlers which cost many oppurtunities So either a) he is a very poor keeper with lack of cricketing sense(on top of that being the captain :banghead:) or b)his fingers were hurting from constant cricket so what do you want us to beleive...Let us know if you heard anything as you seem to be closer to the cricketing circles.

[jalebi_bhai]

Ok.....I'm officially back in this thread......

No offense but it would really help if you avoid those ...... in between.

1. Stop digressing. 2. My style of posting does not violate the rules of the forum. Sorry to know that it bothers you.......but kindly deal with it.

I never said fitness makes him ATG. Why do you always have to make stuff up? There are many things contributing to his greatness and fitness is one of them. Being a wk he has to do countless squats and then come out to bat. To do this in all 3 formats plus IPL requires a lot of fitness and determination. He plays through little niggles here and there too.

Now quoting you to yourself.......

Just to mention, fitness is also an important criteria for judging sportspersons. The first test he missed in this series is only 2nd/3rd instance IIRC in 10 years where he has missed out due to injury.

Seriously? Being fit is a necessary condition to be a sportsman.......if you are not fit, you don't play......how does a necessary condition become a parameter for judging achievements? Dhoni isn't doing you, me or anybody a favour by playing cricket and keeping wickets btw........it is his job!

[Sidhoni]

I am 21 thank you very much and no I was never a professional cricketer doesn't mean I can't debate or give my opinion about cricket as a fan....I am sure as an international or a Ranji cricketer you hear such opinions a lot from normal fans right Sidhoni??? Any ways there was clear back lash of him 1)not playing fast bowlers and prefering trundlers 2)Standing way back for 130+ bowlers which cost many oppurtunities So either a) he is a very poor keeper with lack of cricketing sense(on top of that being the captain :banghead:) or b)his fingers were hurting from constant cricket so what do you want us to beleive...Let us know if you heard anything as you seem to be closer to the cricketing circles.

Aaron is a trundler? Then why did he play in England and Australia despite being erratic? Or for that matter Shami?

[Sidhoni]

Ok.....I'm officially back in this thread...... 1. Stop digressing. 2. My style of posting does not violate the rules of the forum. Sorry to know that it bothers you.......but kindly deal with it. Now quoting you to yourself....... Seriously? Being fit is a necessary condition to be a sportsman.......if you are not fit, you don't play......how does a necessary condition become a parameter for judging achievements? Dhoni isn't doing you, me or anybody a favour by playing cricket and keeping wickets btw........it is his job!

He has been one of the fittest and fastest that's all I have to say. That he manages it all is in itself an achievement. Now why do you have this idea in your mind that I think he is an ATG just because of his fitness, I don't know.

[bulbul]

He has been one of the fittest and fastest that's all I have to say. That he manages it all is in itself an achievement. Now why do you have this idea in your mind that I think he is an ATG just because of his fitness' date=' I don't know.[/quote'] You are adding parameters which really doesn't add much to greatness. Sachin played 22 years , Dhoni only for 10 who is fit? Dhoni can play purely as batsman in ODI , he can relieve test captaincy, sit out of IPL for a season.

[Sidhoni]

You are adding parameters which really doesn't add much to greatness. Sachin played 22 years , Dhoni only for 10 who is fit? Dhoni can play purely as batsman in ODI , he can relieve test captaincy, sit out of IPL for a season.

Sachin had countless injuries and missed out whole season because of injury. That is my point, playing as a wicketkeeper batsman is tough job in all 3 formats. And to that in such a rigorous schedule for 10 years requires fitness.

[jalebi_bhai]

He has been one of the fittest and fastest that's all I have to say. That he manages it all is in itself an achievement. Now why do you have this idea in your mind that I think he is an ATG just because of his fitness' date=' I don't know.[/quote'] Being fit is a necessary condition, if you want to be a sportsman. You said that fitness should be considered when judging a sports person. What is there to consider? It is their job to be fit. Let's not even go into Dhoni's keeping. It leaves a lot to be desired, especially against pacers. When was the last time Dhoni took a splendid one-handed diving catch? Infact.......he isn't one who pulls off spectacular catches.....

[bulbul]

Sachin had countless injuries and missed out whole season because of injury. That is my point' date=' playing as a [b']wicketkeeper batsman is tough job in all 3 formats. And to that in such a rigorous schedule for 10 years requires fitness.

He is great in ODI. Average in Tests and International T20. So fitness really didn't helped his Batting/Keeping in 2 formats.

[vvvslaxman]

Who mentioned about touring WI, Bang, SL etc endlessly? All other teams except India have mixed easy and difficult tours. Why not check out all the overseas tours undertaken by all international teams over the past four years? India - SA, WI, Eng, Aus, SA, NZ, Eng, Aus Aus - SL, SA, WI, Ind, Eng, SA Eng - Aus, SL, Ind, NZ, Aus NZ - Zimb, Aus, WI, Ind, SL, SA,Eng, Bang WI - Bang, Eng, Ind, NZ SL - Eng, SA, Aus, Bang, Pak - NZ, WI, Zimb, SL, SA, Zimb, SA - NZ, Eng, Aus It should be evident that India has been playing the most number of away games and against the toughest opposition, at a time when the team is in transition over the entire four year period - Dhoni, Ishant and Pujara are the only players who have survived all the four years since the SA tour in 2010. Ganguly with a much better and experienced team had considerable difficulty winning games abroad against top teams.

You have to keep in mind other teams are also in transition. Apart from SA and to some extent England everyone was rebuilding. Nobody is an outright world beaters. When SL toured England in 2011 but for one innings collapse they did well. We went there as no.1 team got blanked including the first 2 tests. No team has lost ad badly as us. It is an excuse that we toured the toughest places.. Another thing.. making tough tours help you do better in the next tougher tours.. But we only regressed not progressed. I bet India will keep losing to even the next generation teams from other countries if they keep playing under Dhoni.

[zep1706]

He has been a gun ODI player, one of the ATGs without any doubt. He is an OK test player, very good in familiar conditions. However his captaincy, lack of understanding of test cricket, funky tactics and general approach to test cricket have destroyed the test team and it will take some time to rebuild it and get it in shape again. Not only that his stubbornness to change things and his lack of accountability to own up mistakes have taken the team to a new low. As a fan of test cricket I will never be able to forgive him for that even if he wins one more world cup.

[maniac]

So based on that Lords test and 2 MOS, you think Ishant and Kohli in the same pedestal? :cantstop: Dude just look at Ishant Sharma's avg and strike rate. And what do you mean by Kohli ranking up scores in meaningless games? I think majority of his centuries are while chasing and finishing off games. You can have preference for Ishant but saying that Kohli is one the same league is laughable. :haha: If Virat Kohli stops playing cricket tomorrow, he will still be consider as an ATG. If Ishant plays till 40 he will still be Ishant.

Ok fine case can be made for Kohli in Tier 4 but seriously it is not as off as you make it out to be......Ishant has a case for Tier 4 or Tier 4.5 seriously highlights the lack of bowling resources India has no doubt but having said that if Kohli scores 3 back to back 150's in a bilateral against any top side at home while still an incredible feat will not be talked as much as him scoring at a 30 average in a low scoring test series and being the Man of the Match. Yes,The Lords test win was bigger than some bilateral wins or some meaning less tri-series. I am sure Virat will take being a M.O.S in a overseas test series even against SL,NZl OR WI on their turf over M.O.S in a ODI series win in Aus or S.A. Virat has done nothing significant in his test career so far..in ODI's his record makes him a future legend ,but he has to show up in big tournaments and I am sure he will but is still at a very early stage in his career.

[maniac]

^Also yes i know Ishant's average and S/R and that's why he is so lowly rated otherwise some of his contributions would have made me rank him higher. Irfan Pathan too should be in the 4.5 tier...Test hatrick,Test 100,M.O.M in a overseas win in Australia,M.O.M in T20 wc final etc etc.

[adi B]

Test performances should defo weigh more than odi performance when ranking a player'sgreatness. More like 65-35 in ratio.Dhoni is an ATG odi cricketer but noway a great player when we consider all the formats

[fineleg]

Test performances should defo weigh more than odi performance when ranking a player'sgreatness. More like 65-35 in ratio.Dhoni is an ATG odi cricketer but noway a great player when we consider all the formats

precisely.

[rkt.india]

moniac, we can put Dooni 3 or even 2.5 considering he is a all-rounder and Captain. Even 2.

Dhoni will be at 2 on Maniac list.