How great were Steve and Mark Waugh?

[Harsh Thakor]

I would still rank Alan Border,Javed Miandad and Ian Chappell ahead of Steve Waugh as batsmen considering the opposition they encountered .Border played great West Indian pace bowling and spin bowling better while Ian Chappell withstood better pace bowlers in more testing conditions.Above all Ian came at one down.Javed could improvise more and intimidate his opponents with more craftsmanship.As a skipper I rate Clive Lloyd ahead as he literally had to mould a new unit and converted a bunch ot talented individual sinto a world -beating force.Mark Taylor was a better tactician as well as Mike Brearley.Amonst all-time cricketers Steve may rank about 60th amongst all-time cricketers or make the 6th best all-time world xi.6 cricketers have nominated Steve for their all-time xi. In a world xi Steve may make it at no 6 but at his best I feel Mark Waugh was more effective at no 4.Few batsmen contrasted so much.Steve was like a workmanlike engineer ,Mark like a painter making curves on a board.I would rate Mark Waugh marginally below Martin Crowe,David Gower,Colin Cowdrey or Peter May and marginally ahead of Dilip Vengsarkar,Gundappa Vishwanath or Zaheer Abbas.For pure flair Mark was on par with Colin Cowdrey or Martin Crowe. For a period from 1992-1998 I may have preferred Mark to Steve in a world xi with his artistic flair.Steve benefited from playing in a champion team.In fulll flow Mark looked like slicing a cake with the perfection needed for a royal wedding.His best knock to me was against South Africa in the 2nd test in 1997 closely followed b his 153 n.o.at Bangalore in 1998.Steve's best innings in test matches included his 177 and 152 n.o at Leeds and Headingley in addition to his 63 n.o at Delhi in 1996 and 63 n.o. at Trinidad in 1995

[zen]

In terms of players who have scored at least a dozen 100s in their teams test wins or ties, S Waugh ranks at the top in terms of avg - LINK Since he played for a stronger team, S Waugh's good performances got more value but he was consistent. In terms of raw talent M Waugh was rated higher but S Waugh made the most of his abilities and constantly delivered in almost all types of conditions. Even in Ind where many Aus batsmen struggled on dust bowls, you could bet that Waugh could come up with a fighting performance Based on the ability to deliver results irrespective of opposition or conditions, I would group S Waugh in Tendulkar's league. M Waugh, despite having greater potential or raw talent or technique, in a league below PS below is how I would group batsmen in tests: 1.00: Bradman (ultimate results achieved despite not being technically perfect) 1.25: Sobers (unstoppable when in form; could actually turn the game on his own with his batting) 1.50: Lara, Richards, etc. (played at an above avg strike rates than their peers and still remained as consistent; with all things equal, most likely to win games with their bats than the group(s) below) 1.75: Gavaskar, Chappell, Tendulkar, S Waugh, Ponting, etc. (Brilliant and consistent in almost all conditions; can serve as benchmarks in their respective strong areas) 2.00: Kallis, Miandad, etc. (As good as the batsmen in the league above them but appeared to have one less gear - whether low or top, possibly a minor thing but still an inconvenience) PPS oh6lXjRfVbI

[Texan]

Steve Waugh is the perfect example of "how to make the most of your limited talent". Very awkward batting technique and limited range of strokes. Yet, he turned out to be one of the greatest batsmen of his generation. Mark, on the other hand as OP rightly makes apt analogies, was a flamboyant batsman. Even though twins, they were chalk and cheese. While listing Steve's innings, OP has missed out probably his most significant innings, the 200 against West Indies - Waugh's only double hundred in Tests. Before that series WI had gone 15 years without losing a Test series. Waugh's innings helped Aus win the Test and the series and marked the shift in power from WI dominating Test cricket to Australia dominating Test cricket.

[The Outsider]

The OP is vastly under rating Steve Waugh. He was the only batsman to average 50+ over a large number of tests besides Tendulkar and Lara in the 90s. Dravid and Gooch come close in the 90s but both had smaller sample sizes. S Waugh is one of my favorite cricketers, and forget about a sixth XI as the OP has suggested, I would have him in a first XI at number 5-6. There is no batsman who has made these slots sexy for batting. A great quality about him was the approach to tail end batting. He really redefined it through batting and captaincy where he would refuse to send a night watchman. Laxman adopted the same measure in playing some truly great innings. I watch the '95 series against WI as one of the greatest batting accomplishments all the time and read excerpts from his book to enhance my leadership skills. His autobiography is one of the best sports literature out there. There are very few (

[The Outsider]

Ian Chappell? Surely you are having a laugh. Greg, I agree is comparable but Ian?????? Miandad took 11 years to play a meaningful innings against a WI side depleted with Richards and Marshall. @OP I like your detailed posts on topics but you've got it terribly wrong here.

[Gollum]

I would still rank Alan Border,Javed Miandad and Ian Chappell ahead of Steve Waugh as batsmen considering the opposition they encountered .Border played great West Indian pace bowling and spin bowling better while Ian Chappell withstood better pace bowlers in more testing conditions.Above all Ian came at one down.Javed could improvise more and intimidate his opponents with more craftsmanship.As a skipper I rate Clive Lloyd ahead as he literally had to mould a new unit and converted a bunch ot talented individual sinto a world -beating force.Mark Taylor was a better tactician as well as Mike Brearley.Amonst all-time cricketers Steve may rank about 60th amongst all-time cricketers or make the 6th best all-time world xi.6 cricketers have nominated Steve for their all-time xi. In a world xi Steve may make it at no 6 but at his best I feel Mark Waugh was more effective at no 4.Few batsmen contrasted so much.Steve was like a workmanlike engineer ,Mark like a painter making curves on a board.I would rate Mark Waugh marginally below Martin Crowe,David Gower,Colin Cowdrey or Peter May and marginally ahead of Dilip Vengsarkar,Gundappa Vishwanath or Zaheer Abbas.For pure flair Mark was on par with Colin Cowdrey or Martin Crowe. For a period from 1992-1998 I may have preferred Mark to Steve in a world xi with his artistic flair.Steve benefited from playing in a champion team.In fulll flow Mark looked like slicing a cake with the perfection needed for a royal wedding.His best knock to me was against South Africa in the 2nd test in 1997 closely followed b his 153 n.o.at Bangalore in 1998.Steve's best innings in test matches included his 177 and 152 n.o at Leeds and Headingley in addition to his 63 n.o at Delhi in 1996 and 63 n.o. at Trinidad in 1995

Surely you are joking?

[zen]

Surely you are joking?

Dilip Vengsarkar was actually subcon track champion (not using the word bully). Outside subcon, he probably averages in 20s in WI, Aus and NZ. In Eng, his avg is helped by his 3 100s at Lords .... Of his 17 100s, he has 13 in India and 4 in Eng :P

[Harsh Thakor]

The OP is vastly under rating Steve Waugh. He was the only batsman to average 50+ over a large number of tests besides Tendulkar and Lara in the 90s. Dravid and Gooch come close in the 90s but both had smaller sample sizes. S Waugh is one of my favorite cricketers, and forget about a sixth XI as the OP has suggested, I would have him in a first XI at number 5-6. There is no batsman who has made these slots sexy for batting. A great quality about him was the approach to tail end batting. He really redefined it through batting and captaincy where he would refuse to send a night watchman. Laxman adopted the same measure in playing some truly great innings. I watch the '95 series against WI as one of the greatest batting accomplishments all the time and read excerpts from his book to enhance my leadership skills. His autobiography is one of the best sports literature out there There are very few (<25-30) cricketers whom I consider truly great. S Waugh is one of them, probably in my top 10. A parting shot -it's crazy to compare him with M. Waugh. His comparison rests with the likes of Lara, Tendulkar and if you are uncharitable with Dravid and Kallis.

You are underestimating Ian Chappell who scored 4279 runs at an average of 50.84 at one down and faced the best West Indian paceman like at Perth in1975-76 scoring 156.Ian mastered the likes of great spin bowlers like Prasanna.Remember Ian 's performances in Packer cricket and when playing for against Rest of the world.In a crisis Gary Sobers and even Imran or Lillee rated Ian above brother Greg.Read Sober's bi or that of Imran's or Lillee's.Remember how great Ian Chappell was as a tactician .Miandad was born in the sub-continent and thus not as immune to bouncy tracks.However Javed played spin better than Steve and at his best withstood the likes of great fast bowler,better than Steve like Lillee and Marshall magnificiently.In O.D.I'sJaved was the ultimate match-winner.In Miandad's days wickets favoured bowlers more and he did not have enough chances against weaker opposition like Steve.Javed was a more complete batsmen overall.

[Harsh Thakor]

Surely you are joking?

Ian Chappell scored 4279 runs at an average of 50.84 at one down and faced the best West Indian paceman like at Perth in1975-76 scoring 156.Ian mastered the likes of great spin bowlers like Prasanna.Remember Ian 's performances in Packer cricket and when playing for against Rest of the world.In a crisis Gary Sobers and even Imran or Lillee rated Ian above brother Greg.Read Sober's bi or that of Imran's or Lillee's.Remember how great Ian Chappell was as a tactician .Miandad was born in the sub-continent and thus not as immune to bouncy tracks.However Javed played spin better than Steve and at his best withstood the likes of great fast bowler,better than Steve like Lillee and Marshall magnificiently.In O.D.I'sJaved was the ultimate match-winner.In Miandad's days wickets favoured bowlers more and he did not have enough chances against weaker opposition like Steve.Javed was a more complete batsmen overall.

[Harsh Thakor]

In terms of players who have scored at least a dozen 100s in their teams test wins or ties' date=' S Waugh ranks at the top in terms of avg - LINK Since he played for a stronger team, S Waugh's good performances got more value but he was consistent. In terms of raw talent M Waugh was rated higher but S Waugh made the most of his abilities and constantly delivered in almost all types of conditions. Even in Ind where many Aus batsmen struggled on dust bowls, you could bet that Waugh could come up with a fighting performance Based on the ability to deliver results irrespective of opposition or conditions, I would group S Waugh in Tendulkar's league. M Waugh, despite having greater potential or raw talent or technique, in a league below PS below is how I would group batsmen in tests: 1.00: Bradman (ultimate results achieved despite not being technically perfect) 1.25: Sobers (unstoppable when in form; could actually turn the game on his own with his batting) 1.50: Lara, Richards, etc. (played at an above avg strike rates than their peers and still remained as consistent; with all things equal, most likely to win games with their bats than the group(s) below) 1.75: Gavaskar, Chappell, Tendulkar, S Waugh, Ponting, etc. (Brilliant and consistent in almost all conditions; can serve as benchmarks in their respective strong areas) 2.00: Kallis, Miandad, etc. (As good as the batsmen in the league above them but appeared to have one less gear - whether low or top, possibly a minor thing but still an inconvenience) PPS oh6lXjRfVbI

In pure test cricket I feel Tendulkar and Lara would overlap Viv Richards or Gary Sobers.Viv was a better match-winner but did not bear the workload or pressure that Lara or Tendulkar did.Viv and Gary had the advantage of playing for champion sides .Lara had the greater penchant for mammoth scores and single-handedly turned more test matches than Viv.Above all Lara bore the brunt of a relatively weak batting side and had the best average percentage score of his teams total by nay batsmen after Bradman and Headley.Viv or Sobers have not equalled Lara's epic performance in the 1999 Frank Worrell trophy that changed the whole complexion and turned the tide completely in the other direction. with his 3 successive centuries,including a double and a 150+ score.Lara had to literally carry the brunt of his team's batting on his shoulders unlike Viv.Brian's 11 double centuries including a triple and a four prove that he had a greater flair for making the really big score.Tendulkar dominated the game at the top for a period no cricketer ever has and for longevity as a top batsmen has no peers in test cricket's history.He may not have made the impact of Viv or Lara at his best but was arguably more complete than either of them.Gary Sobers batted mainly at no 6 and although technically more proefficient did not equal Lara's performances when the chips were down .Lara has a better record in Australia or against Australia than Sobers or Viv .Viv and Gary were marginally better against genuine pace but in a crisis or on bad wickets Lara and Sachin would edge them by a whisker.For the 2nd spot to the Don Lara or Sachin are more appropriate choices.I would give Lara the edge over Tendulkar in test cricket who could turn more games.Combing test and O.D.I Sachin would join Viv while in only tests Lara would top after Bradman.If you consider Kery Packer super tests from 1977-79 and series against Rest of the World Greg Chappell atleast statistically would join Lara ,Sobers,Sachin and Viv.Adding Packer cricket no batsmen was as prolific as Greg Chappell against the Calypso paceman who formed the best pace bowling quartet ever.If you consider the bowling Gavaskar faced to set records Sunny may even surpass Sachin.However he did not dominate opposition bowling sufficiently.

[adi B]

Greg Chappell is the greatest Australian batsman ever.

[mishra]

[zen]

In pure test cricket I feel Tendulkar and Lara would overlap Viv Richards or Gary Sobers.Viv was a better match-winner but did not bear the workload or pressure that Lara or Tendulkar did.Viv and Gary had the advantage of playing for champion sides . Lara had the greater penchant for mammoth scores and single-handedly turned more test matches than Viv.Above all Lara bore the brunt of a relatively weak batting side and had the best average percentage score of his teams total by nay batsmen after Bradman and Headley.Viv or Sobers have not equalled Lara's epic performance in the 1999 Frank Worrell trophy that changed the whole complexion and turned the tide completely in the other direction. with his 3 successive centuries,including a double and a 150+ score.Lara had to literally carry the brunt of his team's batting on his shoulders unlike Viv.Brian's 11 double centuries including a triple and a four prove that he had a greater flair for making the really big score. Tendulkar dominated the game at the top for a period no cricketer ever has and for longevity as a top batsmen has no peers in test cricket's history.He may not have made the impact of Viv or Lara at his best but was arguably more complete than either of them. Gary Sobers batted mainly at no 6 and although technically more proefficient did not equal Lara's performances when the chips were down .Lara has a better record in Australia or against Australia than Sobers or Viv .Viv and Gary were marginally better against genuine pace but in a crisis or on bad wickets Lara and Sachin would edge them by a whisker. For the 2nd spot to the Don Lara or Sachin are more appropriate choices.I would give Lara the edge over Tendulkar in test cricket who could turn more games.Combing test and O.D.I Sachin would join Viv while in only tests Lara would top after Bradman. If you consider Kery Packer super tests from 1977-79 and series against Rest of the World Greg Chappell atleast statistically would join Lara ,Sobers,Sachin and Viv.Adding Packer cricket no batsmen was as prolific as Greg Chappell against the Calypso paceman who formed the best pace bowling quartet ever. If you consider the bowling Gavaskar faced to set records Sunny may even surpass Sachin.However he did not dominate opposition bowling sufficiently.

Bhai Sahab, please format your post properly with paragraphs so it is easier to read. I have tried to sort out your ideas somewhat above :--D Appears as if you have rated Lara higher than Viv and Garry because of factors such as workload, big innings, etc. And then Ten over Viv and Garry mainly because Ten, to you , is a more complete batsman However, your ideas need consistency as they appear to be suggesting along the lines that Dubai is better than Delhi because Dubai is less polluted, and Delhi (the most polluted city in the world) is better than Copen Hagen (less polluted than Delhi) because Delhi has historic places such Red Fort, Qutab Minar, Ind Gate, and one of the wonders of the world is only a short flight away! ***** PS Some facts (some of which could agree or disagree with what you wrote): Garry: Sobers was the prime reason why his side could be considered as a champion side. He has played some awe inspiring and game changing knocks including 365*, 254 vs Aus, etc. (and who can forget the 6 6s). Apart from batting, he contributed with bowling and fielding as well. There were series where he scored 1 or 2 100s, picked up 10-15 wkts, and held 8-10 catches! Despite being focused on all 3 departments, his batting was simply superb. You have ignored the pressure to perform in all 3 departments, playing a key role in transforming the WI side, etc. He was probably also the most positive or attacking captain amongst the four Viv: Even though he was part of a star-studded side both in terms of batting and bowling, he has played some great knocks under pressure. For e.g. the one against Ind at Delhi where he single handedly took his side to victory. Viv and Garry both avg 65+ in 3rd and 4th innings in won tests Lara: For most parts, did not have great batting support apart from players such as C'paul. However, he had good support from bowlers such as Ambrose and Walsh. And ofc knocks of 375, 400 and 501 speak for themselves Ten: In the early 90s, had support from likes of Azhar, Sidhu, Kambli, Kapil, Shastri, etc. And later on was joined by Ganguly, Dravid, Laxman and Sehwag to form one of the strongest batting line ups ever. He had good support from bowlers such as Srinath, Zaheer, Kumble and Bhajji (who at his peak was lethal in Ind, watch the famous Ind-Aus series where Lax made that 281). Among the 4, he probably had with more star players (including greats) after Viv ***** PPS and this is what one of your favs, Ian Chappell, says about Sir Garry Sobers: U--JmzsdUKI Ian Chappell - "He (Sobers) is the best batsman I have ever seen. And that inngs of 254 just confirmed it for me."

[RedFever]

Well had they played in this era, they would have been definitely picked by King XI Bangalore.

[mishra]

Well had they played in this era' date=' they would have been definitely picked by [b']King XI Bangalore.

u mean rcb. And would have to warm the bench cos of ABDV and Gayle :phehehe:

[RedFever]

^ No, i meant KXIB :haha: In case you missed this thread http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=326430

[mishra]

^ No, i meant KXIB :haha: In case you missed this thread http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=326430

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[zen]

Historical ICC Test Rankings 1950s to 1960s:

• Team Start End Total months Australia January 1952 May 1955 41 England June 1955 February 1958 33 Australia March 1958 July 1958 5 England August 1958 December 1958 5 Australia January 1959 December 1963 60 West Indies January 1964 December 1968 60 South Africa January 1969 December 1969 12

WI was ranked at the top from 1964 to 1968. In these years, below was Sobers' performance: Batting Add Bowling :omg:

[Old guy]

^ No, i meant KXIB :haha: In case you missed this thread http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=326430

:proud:

[Crookbond]

:proud: