BEEF controversy

[Yoda-esque]

Lol, we are already seeing that in WB ,Assam and Kerala

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[diga]

^^Isnt there a difference between rational discourse & political rhetoric? Irony died a million deaths when alternate viewpoints are dismissed as intolerance

[coffee_rules]

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/dadri-murder-nayantara-sahgal-narendra-modi-emergency-indira-gandhi-beef-ban-shiv-sena-rss-bjp/story/1/6758.html

 

Already posted in the thread, but to all the people complaining about intolerance, are they making these statements from jail as people did in emergency? Haider got a national award from the current government, so much for intolerance. even when the maker (VB) had signed a letter appealing to people to not to vote to BJP/Modi. Modi opened up the beef debate after Lalu did, so can't blame him. Maharashtra congI govt hasn't arrested anybody for Dabholkar killing which happened in 2013.  Kalburgi killing in CongI land, but still there is no investigation  , people are already so sure it is BJP that did it. Agreed that the fringe groups like Dal/Senas have risen their activities more and that needs to be addressed at a law and order level, but these activities were there even before 2014. BJP is doing the same what other governments have been doing to curtail them. The local governments let it happen and blame central government for this. Beef has been a hotbed for debate for centuries. These are being raked because of elections. 

[amiret]

^

Modi opened up the beef debate after Lalu did,

Are you referring to modi's comments in April 2014 ?

From the Hindu Business Line :

April 6, 2014

It is unfortunate that the cow has once again taken centre-stage in political discourse, with insinuations that a Centre-promoted ‘pink revolution’ is endangering India’s cattle population.

In recent poll campaign speeches, the BJP’s prime ministerial candidate Narendra Modi claimed that those owning slaughterhouses and exporting cow meat are being given subsidies and tax breaks.

His comments were made in Bihar in 2014

April 3, 2014

BJP prime ministerial candidate Narendra Modi accused the Congress-led Central government of promoting meat export and cow slaughter.

Could those who worshipped the cow support this, Mr. Modi wondered at a rally here, making a pitch for the crucial Yadav votes in Bihar.

He alleged that due to the proliferation of slaughter houses, cattle were being stolen from villages.

Mr. Modi spoke on similar lines in Madhya Pradesh on Tuesday, introducing the new theme — “pink revolution” — into his election campaign.

Mr. Modi said he had heard of the green revolution and the white revolution. But the Congress lost interest in them, and instead was spearheading, what he called, the pink revolution.

“There is no subsidy for farmers or for rearing cattle, but the Congress gives subsidy to those who slaughter cows.”

 

Edited October 30, 2015 by amiret

[coffee_rules]

^

Are you referring to modi's comments in April 2014 ?

From the Hindu Business Line :

His comments were made in Bihar in 2014

 

The context was in the recent Bihar elections.

[Singh bling]

If you want to indulge in this argument of whatabouttery or as I like to call it Deewar logic, then why did they not return awards or protest during Babri Masjid or more pertinently Gujarat 2002? 

The reasons are to introspect and not deduce by playing the whatabouttery game. As far as number of people killed in riots, it is obviously not a good metric. All other instances were largely localized, except for the Babri Masjid fiasco in which there was immediate action taken by dismissing BJP ruled governments and banning organizations like VHP.

It is lazy and trivial to equate these leading scientists, historians, and artists to Congis and call this a politically manufactured protest.

How about analyzing things a bit more to understand why they are protesting now? The intolerance is no longer some local law and order issue. It has permeated most states. It is again lazy to lay the blame on individual state governments, like it would be foolish to say Gandhi was killed due to a state government than the Hindutva ideology. 

It is no longer a question of the fringe. The PM is openly campaigning on communal divisions for a state election. This is the real existence of the RSS. They are an evil an vile organization and have spread their poison far and deep enough so the Indian society is on the path to becoming a Hindu Pakistan.

Recall the mid 70s to 80s when Pakistan became its transition to the mess it is today. It wasn't accompanied by massive riots but by gradual poisoning of the society like RSS is doing today through instruments like love jihaad, Ghar waapsi, and beef (something which should never have been an issue because cow beef is already banned in majority of states and Muslims don't really crave for it). The only reason this is being made an issue is to establish Hindu dominance. These are things localized riots from 30 years ago will not put into perspective, but I am glad The thinkers and drivers of the country can see through all this whatabouttery and Deewar logic.

It is stupid to assume that most them sitting in their AC rooms know that level of intolerance   has reached local level. You need to go to villages small towns  and talk with people. And if intolerance is really high then it should be muslims that should be moving to safer area's or their localities in cities. Is this happening?

 

The reason I quoted 1984 riots because from a sikh family that too from Delhi I can tell how a minority feel when they are vulnerable , After 1984 many of our relatives moved to Punjab. In Delhi Gurdwara' asked sikhs to create and live in their localities , that is why area's like Tilak nagar are heavily sikhs. Are these things happening with muslims

 

Just because 4-5 incidents and day and night media discussions on them does not make India Hindu Pakistan.media don't care about gang rape of tribal dalit girls in remote part so lets don't care about it murders in various  remore part so lets just believe nothing is happening their

 

[asterix]

It'll take years to cleanse the system of these Libtards and Pseudo-Secular Homos who are a God send gift to Anti-Hindu forces and communities... Things are moving in the right direction...

I'm trying to find out any news Muslim/Christian Rationalists in India, who have rational views about their own religion and are surviving... India does needs its own Tarek Fatehs, pretty badly at this juncture, to have bit of balance...

[Yoda-esque]

Bdutt calls Raveena and karwachauth regressive. .how tolerant

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[The Outsider]

It is stupid to assume that most them sitting in their AC rooms know that level of intolerance   has reached local level. You need to go to villages small towns  and talk with people. And if intolerance is really high then it should be muslims that should be moving to safer area's or their localities in cities. Is this happening?

 

The reason I quoted 1984 riots because from a sikh family that too from Delhi I can tell how a minority feel when they are vulnerable , After 1984 many of our relatives moved to Punjab. In Delhi Gurdwara' asked sikhs to create and live in their localities , that is why area's like Tilak nagar are heavily sikhs. Are these things happening with muslims

 

Just because 4-5 incidents and day and night media discussions on them does not make India Hindu Pakistan.media don't care about gang rape of tribal dalit girls in remote part so lets don't care about it murders in various  remore part so lets just believe nothing is happening their

 

I am not sure how you can make the assertion that these people are disconnected from reality. Almost all these scientists are not some super rich people and live in middle class neighborhoods, they have constant interaction with the young generation through hundreds if not thousands of students, and many perhaps would have rural roots as well.

The increasing trend of Muslims to be living in ghettos is undeniable. The most spectacular example of it is Ahmedabad, but has been happening in western UP as well over the past couple of years. Anyhow, that is but one symptom of the problem.

It's not 4-5 incidents. These are very frequent happenings. Just yesterday, the editor of some Haryana magazine was fired because some article was published which said beef has high iron content - if this is not intolerance, what is? Also, the ministry for Information and Broadcasting refused permission to screen a documentary which looks at the beef eating practices in Bombay. The grave of some Muslim woman was dug up and her naked body laid out in the open. The Prime Minister is openly leading a communal election campaign. These are 4 incidents just from the last couple of days, some receive coverage in the media and some do not but the frequency is much more than you are projecting..

Then coming to scientists, science was made a joke out of in the last session of the Indian Science Congress. The Prime Minister is peddling garbage like Karna was born due to advances in genetics and Ganesha from plastic surgery. There are numerous other examples of the government smothering scientific temper by promoting utter nonsense like Vedic age is from 5000 BC. The constitution mandates the government to promote scientific temper not peddle myths and pollute the society with half baked mythology in the name of science. Scientists are doing nothing wrong in standing up to this vitiated atmosphere. In fact, they should have done this earlier.

[vvvslaxman]

I still wrap around my head to understand why they should return awards which was awarded by a different body under different administration. Not sure what purpose it serves . This is more like  a herd mentality more than anything else. Hey that guy has returned. Let us return as well. Whatever you have achieved belongs to you not to anyone else. Your award is recognition of that. How exactly it has any relevance to political stability or lack of it,  of your country. This is frankly insulting to the people who decided to award these scientists or writers. There is high visibility on issues that are mundane from the media.   Also unnecessary "caste", "religious" coating to every violent crime.  Even if it is a family rivalry they give caste coating and turn this into a full on war between two castes.  If you are going to feed people 24/7 with such issues you will naturally form an opinion that this country is a hellhole. They may be great scientists. Their political judgement is rather immature and not really well thought out . I cannot buy the argument that all free thinking scientists got this "idea of returning the award" exactly at the same time. 

Edited October 30, 2015 by vvvslaxman

[jalebi_bhai]

I've read that there has been a serious clamp down on cattle smuggling across the Indo-Ban border by the BSF. Good job! Let the terminally ill mental patients keep bitching, moaning and whining. They are as relevant to the nation as a cricket bat is to a fish. 

Edited October 30, 2015 by jalebi_bhai

[amiret]

 

[The Outsider]

I still wrap around my head to understand why they should return awards which was awarded by a different body under different administration. Not sure what purpose it serves . This is more like  a herd mentality more than anything else. Hey that guy has returned. Let us return as well. Whatever you have achieved belongs to you not to anyone else. Your award is recognition of that. How exactly it has any relevance to political stability or lack of it,  of your country. This is frankly insulting to the people who decided to award these scientists or writers. There is high visibility on issues that are mundane from the media.   Also unnecessary "caste", "religious" coating to every violent crime.  Even if it is a family rivalry they give caste coating and turn this into a full on war between two castes.  If you are going to feed people 24/7 with such issues you will naturally form an opinion that this country is a hellhole. They may be great scientists. Their political judgement is rather immature and not really well thought out . I cannot buy the argument that all free thinking scientists got this "idea of returning the award" exactly at the same time. 

If top scientists from MIT, Harvard etc. or if you want a more equitable comparison (public universities) then Berkeley, Minnesota etc. had started protesting and returning their awards it would have shaken the establishment in the U.S. Or UK with regards to Cambridge, Oxford etc. Or pretty much any country which values its scientific contributors.

At the very least it would have led the government to say that, here are hundreds of top scientists in the top institutions of the country protesting about something, let's arrange a meeting with them to understand their grievances.

Contrast this to the reaction by the government in India which is supporting mythology instead of science.

I hate making proper discussions personal, but tell me given a choice where would you rather have your child study at - some RSS shakha or some school like MIT or in the Indian context, TIFR?

Edited October 30, 2015 by The Outsider

[Singh bling]

I am not sure how you can make the assertion that these people are disconnected from reality. Almost all these scientists are not some super rich people and live in middle class neighborhoods, they have constant interaction with the young generation through hundreds if not thousands of students, and many perhaps would have rural roots as well.

The increasing trend of Muslims to be living in ghettos is undeniable. The most spectacular example of it is Ahmedabad, but has been happening in western UP as well over the past couple of years. Anyhow, that is but one symptom of the problem.

It's not 4-5 incidents. These are very frequent happenings. Just yesterday, the editor of some Haryana magazine was fired because some article was published which said beef has high iron content - if this is not intolerance, what is? Also, the ministry for Information and Broadcasting refused permission to screen a documentary which looks at the beef eating practices in Bombay. The grave of some Muslim woman was dug up and her naked body laid out in the open. The Prime Minister is openly leading a communal election campaign. These are 4 incidents just from the last couple of days, some receive coverage in the media and some do not but the frequency is much more than you are projecting..

Then coming to scientists, science was made a joke out of in the last session of the Indian Science Congress. The Prime Minister is peddling garbage like Karna was born due to advances in genetics and Ganesha from plastic surgery. There are numerous other examples of the government smothering scientific temper by promoting utter nonsense like Vedic age is from 5000 BC. The constitution mandates the government to promote scientific temper not peddle myths and pollute the society with half baked mythology in the name of science. Scientists are doing nothing wrong in standing up to this vitiated atmosphere. In fact, they should have done this earlier.

Muslim ghettoisation is not new , Congress should be much more answerable for that.And if in Western UP muslim ghettoisation increase then SP should be answerable  Isn't SP is most pro muslim party of UP? Are any of award returnees questioning SP?

And just being a middle class does not mean  you know reality. Much of today's IT sector working class just remain in their own world and have perception of their type of India. If media tell them something very wrong is going they just believe it.

 

Personally I have 2 muslim part time maids , muslim car cleaner and goes to various shops run by musilims I have not seen anyone running or closing their shops.

 

And yes the environment is becoming bad communally due to irresponsible statements by Hindutva fanatics but still situation is not something which we can say is worst.

The award returning is nothing but bhed chaal , 

[vvvslaxman]

If top scientists from MIT, Harvard etc. or if you want a more equitable comparison (public universities) then Berkeley, Minnesota etc. had started protesting and returning their awards it would have shaken the establishment in the U.S. Or UK with regards to Cambridge, Oxford etc. Or pretty much any country which values its scientific contributors.

At the very least it would have led the government to say that, here are hundreds of top scientists in the top institutions of the country protesting about something, let's arrange a meeting with them to understand their grievances.

Contrast this to the reaction by the government in India which is supporting mythology instead of science.

I hate making proper discussions personal, but tell me given a choice where would you rather have your child study at - some RSS shakha or some school like MIT or in the Indian context, TIFR?

Reactions of politicians are going to be ranging from stupid to very stupid. I don't deny that. I am talking about events that led to such reactions from politicians. If the reactions of politicians are immature , the reactions from artists and scientists are also immature.  Definitely not really warranted. There are other avenues through which they can express their grievances. Is it going to be a trend now? Any time there is a communal riot we are going to give away awards? Or is it specific to this government.  In case god forbid the looters come back to power, will these authors stage such protests?  On my facebook page my christian friends, dalit friends have been criticizing Modi constantly from the day he became PM. Till today all i hear is criticism. None of them were remotely subjected to any kind of discrimination.  The religious discrimination is not exactly widespread as it is projected to be.  I don't say it doesn't exist. It exists. But no worse than under previous governments. Social media, media have played a huge role in this over-reaction of returning awards. It serves no purpose other projects India as a country where religious fundamentalists run amok and kill people belonging to other religions. Those who are too lazy to analyze would say "All Hindus are killing muslims in India".

 

[surajmal]

 

[amiret]

 

According to reliable sources , the mob that lynched a man in dadri , was comprised mostly of AAP supporters and leaders.

Some of them are alleged to have shouted "Latak Gaya" and "we love kejriwal and anarchy" as they committed the gruesome act.

 

[asterix]

According to reliable sources , the mob that lynched a man in dadri , was comprised mostly of AAP supporters and leaders.

Some of them are alleged to have shouted "Latak Gaya" and "we love kejriwal and anarchy" as they committed the gruesome act.

Shame on AÀP,and AAPtards....

[The Outsider]

Reactions of politicians are going to be ranging from stupid to very stupid. I don't deny that. I am talking about events that led to such reactions from politicians. If the reactions of politicians are immature , the reactions from artists and scientists are also immature.  Definitely not really warranted. There are other avenues through which they can express their grievances. Is it going to be a trend now? Any time there is a communal riot we are going to give away awards? Or is it specific to this government.  In case god forbid the looters come back to power, will these authors stage such protests?  On my facebook page my christian friends, dalit friends have been criticizing Modi constantly from the day he became PM. Till today all i hear is criticism. None of them were remotely subjected to any kind of discrimination.  The religious discrimination is not exactly widespread as it is projected to be.  I don't say it doesn't exist. It exists. But no worse than under previous governments. Social media, media have played a huge role in this over-reaction of returning awards. It serves no purpose other projects India as a country where religious fundamentalists run amok and kill people belonging to other religions. Those who are too lazy to analyze would say "All Hindus are killing muslims in India".

 

This isn't just about reaction to politicians. For the scientists, one of the main reasons is killing of scientific temper. The Indian Science Congress was a big demonstration of it where the state supported, led by the PM, utter BS in the name of science. 

What else can scientists do in such a scenario except protest through their meager means? Don't you think the American scientific community will protest if some president takes the podium on a science congress and starts peddling creationism?

I am desisting from talking about minorities etc., but just yesterday a Baha'i burial ground was ransacked by BJP leaders in a BJP state. It's an everyday happening - the subjugation of minorities and scientific thought. 

What Sanghis like to portray is that only incidents which are perpetrated by Hindus are highlighted to develop a narrative of victimization. With numerous examples on this thread, that has been proven wrong. Media highlights what suits it and fits the public opinion. Instead of whining about it, talk about the Hindu radicalization of the society which these people are protesting against.

[vvvslaxman]

This isn't just about reaction to politicians. For the scientists, one of the main reasons is killing of scientific temper. The Indian Science Congress was a big demonstration of it where the state supported, led by the PM, utter BS in the name of science. 

What else can scientists do in such a scenario except protest through their meager means? Don't you think the American scientific community will protest if some president takes the podium on a science congress and starts peddling creationism?

I am desisting from talking about minorities etc., but just yesterday a Baha'i burial ground was ransacked by BJP leaders in a BJP state. It's an everyday happening - the subjugation of minorities and scientific thought. 

What Sanghis like to portray is that only incidents which are perpetrated by Hindus are highlighted to develop a narrative of victimization. With numerous examples on this thread, that has been proven wrong. Media highlights what suits it and fits the public opinion. Instead of whining about it, talk about the Hindu radicalization of the society which these people are protesting against.

Government change. People don't change. Not sure how suddenly "intolerance" would be on the rise so much so minorities cannot live in India.  As a parallel in US ,  blacks are clearly getting profiled. In some southern states it is  a routine thing. They do bring up in award ceremonies , interviews on chosen platforms. Nobody went on a spree of returning awards. Same way apart from gun freaks , many want gun regulation as it is killing 1000s of people every year. Nobody is on a mission to return awards. So it makes very little to no sense.  We had congress for so many years. Were they able to get rid of these elements? They had enough time on their hands to completely wipe out these guys.   In US we have white supremacist organization, black panther organization. No government can get rid of them. RSS is a bit like that.  I do see my christian friends post a lot about "intolerance" and talk about how unsafe for minorities to live there. If i ask them "do you feel threatened by anybody" answer has been invariable no. That is the reality for most minorities. This 24/7/365 coverage of "religious intolerance" would create false perception . From the perspective of an outsider "India is a country full of rapists and minority killers". They are not going to go into details of who actually was responsible behind it. This is why media has to be responsible about  how they present a news. Proper investigation and proper titling of news. Adding "Dalit" "christian" to every tragedy happened to a them before presenting the news will create wrong perceptions. In an attempt to smear Modi, they are actually smearing India inadvertently.  There are other ways to target Modi like they can go after his policies with proof. But focusing mainly on "minority treatment" like there is no other issue will definitely give credence to conspiracy theories.  I basically pass my judgement based on how they present the news, what kind of news they cover. Don't agree with CHetan much. But i agree with him on the point how media is destroying India's image inadvertently. Modi comes Modi goes. But image of India being intolerant will stay forever.