mishra Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Singh bling said: I don't know it is as easy as you are saying but people earlier were saying that RBI keeps record of all the currency which it gives to bank but still we saw 100s of crore leaked from banks .Anyway if its as easy then why our IT department was sleeping now.Why can't they just extract tax from suspicious transactions which were happening before demonitization Yes, It is easy as 1-2-3. Record is all collected specially if money has gone to any of those big banks. Infact those cashiers teller guys including them managers probably dont know that it can be audited exactly which PC they used at what exact time to do exactly what deposit even if they have changed/backdated the deposit time. IT Systems where the above facility is not there in terms of readily available, Systems will still have to maintain records for auditing and a small 3-6 month project will deliver everything. Government just need to decide indicators to tell which one will be classed as black money. And they may have allready got one or in process of building some with some sample assessment from real data which will have a very high hit ratio Edited December 30, 2016 by mishra
Singh bling Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 1 hour ago, mishra said: Yes, It is easy as 1-2-3. Record is all collected specially if money has gone to any of those big banks. Infact those cashiers teller guys including them managers probably dont know that it can be audited exactly which PC they used at what exact time to do exactly what deposit even if they have changed/backdated the deposit time. IT Systems where the above facility is not there in terms of readily available, Systems will still have to maintain records for auditing and a small 3-6 month project will deliver everything. Government just need to decide indicators to tell which one will be classed as black money. And they may have allready got one or in process of building some with some sample assessment from real data which will have a very high hit ratio But these things were already in place before demonitization or something on November 8 changed My question is did IT department always caught people that were doing suspicious transactions? If earlier they failed then how can we we be sure that this time they will end up catching l of them.any way IT department will need to question all those lakhs of people and they will present their defense. even if IT department slap tax on them they can challenge it in court so all those lakhs of cases will go to court and we all know how much time each case take. And you did not answer my question how currency worth 100 or probably thousand crores leaked from banking system if they keep proper trail of numbers on note and where they went?
Singh bling Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 Quote The mammoth task of sorting out black and white for IT department wefornews.com 2016-12-10 19:49:35 New Delhi, December 10: PM Narendra Modi led government is looking forward to use sleazing tax blade on undisclosed income deposited in banks during 50-day deadline to exchange demonetized currency. However, two major tax associations — Income Tax Employees Federation (ITEF) and Income Tax Gazetted Officers’ Association (ITGOA) who make 97 % of the IT department, are not amused by the burgeoning emergency on their department owing to high scale manpower and infrastructural shortage. In a joint memorandum the income tax employees associations have written to PM and FM, GOI, about how they are feeling “demotivated due to shortage of manpower in lower cadres and huge stagnation in officers cadre right at this moment”. The joint statement says: In the present circumstances, the objective of taxing the black money will be difficult to achieve without resolving the issues narrated in details in the press note enclosed. “As the fight against the menace of black money requires a continuous and long‐term mechanism, the process of identification, examination, investigation and verification of transactions made consequent to demonetization shall entail large increase in workload for which adequate manpower and logistic support will be required.” Here in, Wefornews have explored why the ITD is so miffed up with the Center’s foresight regarding unravelling the tax hoarders in such a short span with the help of the expert inputs. Let us assume that only Rs. 12 lakh crore of the Rs 14.5 lakh crore comes back to the banks, while, the RBI governor has already accepted that Rs 11.85 has been pooled in the banking sector till date. Now let’s deduct Rs 4 lakh crore as the amount that was already parked with banks as deposits before November 8, the money with ATMs, Money collected by government utilities, municipalities, railways, hospitals, petrol pumps, ITD itself, and so on, during November/ December from the total amount. In the narrowest estimates, let’s say Rs 8 lakh crore would be required to be checked by the Income tax department. There were about 117 crore saving bank accounts in the country in 2015 held by nearly 60 crore Indians. Some of them would have multiple bank accounts. Now we can safely assume that people would have submitted either Rs 50000, Rs 2,50, 000 or more than Rs 2.5 lakh in their accounts. It would be safe to assume that only 5% of these 60 crore people, i.e, 3 crore persons would have made cash deposits exceeding Rs. 250,000/- , which would be deposit of Rs.7.5 lakh crore. Of these, let’s assume only 25 % of people would come under IT scrutiny. S0, total of 75 lakh cases would require the attention of IT department. Here in, as data of depositors would be clean and collated and certified by banks, the main issue for investigation would be correctness of explanation for the source of deposit offered by the depositor. Next in line for investigation would be cases coming out of searches and surveys. These should be few thousands and certainly not in lakhs! However, these would require deep and concerted investigations. Coming to deposits made to the Jandhan Accounts, about 30 lakh Jan Dhan a/cs (JDA) have been opened between November and December 2016. Total deposits in JDA have increased from Rs. 45636 crore in October to Rs. 74321 crore in December i.e. by about Rs 30000 crore. IN JDA, the investigation is not merely of source of deposit, but also of ownership because the suspicion is that these are benami deposits; and then fastening the liability on the real owner. The entire process of investigation by the income tax department would involve (i) Collection of data from banks: for this a new rule has been framed mandating all banks to transmit data of deposits of Rs. 50000 and above online to ITD by 31st January 2017 (ii) Receipts of returns or Issue of notices for the same: this will happen only around July 2017 (iii) Issue of notices seeking explanations for the deposits (iv) Conduct of hearing by the Assessing Officers (AOs) (v) Passing of assessment orders accepting partly/fully or rejecting the explanation and raising of tax demand (vi) Steps for recovery of tax demand (vii) Penalty proceedings in appropriate cases (viii) Prosecution in at least a small percentage of cases Last C&AG report (No.3 of 2016) brings out that between 2009 and 2014 the number of Officers in ITD on assessment functions varied from 3600 to 4000. For 2016, let us assume the number of Assessing Officers to be around 5000. The same report shows that the number of scrutiny assessments completed annually in the years between 2009 and 2014 varied between 3 lakh to 4.55 lakh. This works out to about 125 assessments per officer per year. Let us assume that the officers are persuaded / directed to more than double their output to say 300 assessments per officer per year and the entire assessment manpower is devoted to these cases only – which in practice is impossible. The limitation law requires that assessments for Financial Year ending March 2017 should be completed by December 2019. Thus theoretically each officer will have about two years to complete the assessments pertaining to year ending March 2017. In other words each officer can dispose about 600 assessments. For 5000 officers the total will work out to about 30, 00,000 assessments in two years. Looking at the issue conversely for completing one crore assessment (75 lakh S/B a/c cases and 25 lakh JDA cases) in two years ITD will need to at least triple its assessment manpower. This is not easy, the recruitment process being what it is. One option to augment manpower could be to entrust assessment function to Inspectors also. But that may invite criticism of Inspector raj and still not solve the problem. Another option could be to amend the law so as to increase the limitation period from current 21 months to 60 months. But that would dilute the thrust of the drive. Of course, this is a highly simplified version based on multiple assumptions. The actual scenario is going to be far more complex. Besides, there would be issues of tax disputes, tax arrears, possible allegations of high handedness and corruption, and much more. The government would have to take a call sooner as the queues from Banks would soon be moving to the CAs and IT offices. (With special inputs from Shahid khan, former CBDT member) http://www.ucnews.in/news/901-1395449430103446/the-mammoth-task-of-sorting-out-black-and-white-for-it-department.html
mishra Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Singh bling said: But these things were already in place before demonitization or something on November 8 changed My question is did IT department always caught people that were doing suspicious transactions? If earlier they failed then how can we we be sure that this time they will end up catching l of them.any way IT department will need to question all those lakhs of people and they will present their defense. even if IT department slap tax on them they can challenge it in court so all those lakhs of cases will go to court and we all know how much time each case take. And you did not answer my question how currency worth 100 or probably thousand crores leaked from banking system if they keep proper trail of numbers on note and where they went? IT in my above post does not meant Income Tax. It meant Information Technology Systems used in Bank. Dealing with one billion people is difficult. But most IT systems will butcher every angle for just 8 million customers. On second part, It proves that there is a dire need for some measures against corruption in India. If you are corrupt, then there has to be a fear of state. Right now , there is none, Allthough just jokingly, but people are acknowldging that Modi may come with anything. Edited December 30, 2016 by mishra
Singh bling Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 Many people on this thread were shouting 1% Indians pay , what they do not know that IT department only has 8000-10000 officers. You want these 8000-10000 taxmen to extract tax from 130 crore people , this is hilarious. What India simply needs is More taxmen and not some superhuman who can solve their problem , Increase strength to 50 k to 1 lakh officers officers in 10 years and see How Indians will start paying taxes tweaker 1
randomGuy Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Singh bling said: Because economies don't run on fancies of some people, tell me which renowned economists of world has suggested this type of move .And I do care about poor and the one who died. may be you people have now become stone hearted like the earlier revolution we saw where people dead but the leaders and their supporters say that so what they are dieing for greater cause future will be great Admirable post. Singh bling 1
BeautifulGame Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 One Auditor made a very pertinent point recently .RBI has said nearly 18 lakh crore(iirc) unaccounted cash has been deposited. Most are thinking this is the maximum amount of black money and tax evasion.But the reality is far from. Because of the way money can be circulated , the same unaccounted cash can be used by any number of people so the actual money evaded is probably far more staggering . For example if A buys property from B for 2 lakhs ,registers land for one and pays one lakh in cash.And now B uses the same cash to buy property from C in similar process .So even though the actual physical black money is only one lakh , the real black money evasion is 2 lakhs .This is called velocity of circulation. Hence locating the actual physical black money and bringing that into banking system is an important factor not just the actual amount of the number people deposited .Because they are only the people who had black money at the current time not the actual no of black money evaders or the actual amount of loss to Govt due to black money transactions. Though this angle hasn't been much explored by media but makes a lot of sense. For the as I mentioned earlier ,the decision of demonetisation was great but the process is handled badly IMO.They shouldnt have introduced 2000 notes as it has made hording easier and should have printed enough Rs.100 notes to avoid the cash crunch. The poor middle class or people working in unorganised sector aren't affected because of demonetisation or 1000 rupees were banned .But because there were enough 100 rupees to replace them which has resulted in a bad cash crunch in the country.
BeautifulGame Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 One Auditor made a very pertinent point recently .RBI has said nearly 18 lakh crore(iirc) unaccounted cash has been deposited. Most are thinking this is the maximum amount of black money and tax evasion.But the reality is far from. Because of the way money can be circulated , the same unaccounted cash can be used by any number of people so the actual money evaded is probably far more staggering . For example if A buys property from B for 2 lakhs ,registers land for one and pays one lakh in cash.And now B uses the same cash to buy property from C in similar process .So even though the actual physical black money is only one lakh , the real black money evasion is 2 lakhs .This is called velocity of circulation. Basically they are only the people who had black money at the current time not the actual no of black money evaders or the actual amount of loss to Govt due to black money transactions.Though this angle hasn't been much explored by media but makes a lot of sense. Hence locating the actual physical black money and bringing that into banking system is an important factor not just the actual amount of the number people deposited . The decision of demonetisation was great but the process is handled badly IMO.They shouldnt have introduced 2000 notes as it has made hording easier and should have printed enough Rs.100 notes to avoid the cash crunch. The poor middle class or people working in unorganised sector aren't affected because of demonetisation or 1000 rupees were banned .But because there were enough 100 rupees to replace them which has resulted in a bad cash crunch in the country. mishra and tweaker 2
Singh bling Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 Quote http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opinion/opinion-poll?from=mdr 88% people believe that Demonitisation drive is not successful as told by Jaitley
Singh bling Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 Quote Cash withdrawal limit from ATMs increased to Rs 4,500 per day from January 1 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/cash-withdrawal-limit-from-atms-increased-to-rs-4500-per-day-from-january-1/articleshow/56263151.cms No change in weekly limit so businesses will continue to suffer
tweaker Posted December 30, 2016 Author Posted December 30, 2016 The 50-day deadline to deposit the old Rs 500/1,000 notes in banks comes to an end on Friday. However, the cash crunch and queues outside ATMs and banks continue as currency printing presses have failed to meet the huge demand for new bills. Moroever, the people will still have time to exchange the currency notes at designated RBI counters till March 31 after giving valid reasons for not depositing defunct notes in their accounts by December 30.
tweaker Posted December 31, 2016 Author Posted December 31, 2016 Following expiry of the deadline to deposit demonetised currency in banks, the RBI on Friday relaxed the daily ATM withdrawal limit to Rs 4,500 from the earlier cap of Rs 2,500, with this facility, to be effective from January 1, coming as a new year gift to citizens.
vayuu1 Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 Heard that about 4 lakh crore of deposited money is under scanner of IT. Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk
Singh bling Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 5 hours ago, vayuu1 said: Heard that about 4 lakh crore of deposited money is under scanner of IT. Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk IT departmen will need 10 years to look at those 4 Lakh crores, At best they can asses 10-20 lakh cases of demonitization and how much they can recover , its upto them. randomGuy 1
coffee_rules Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 Only 25% of circulating 500s and 1000s recovered. From that pov, it has been a failure. There is no plan of printing new notes, 2000 is not practical, need to speed up 500s at least. Long term effect is yet to be seen, put a lid on a lot of short term illegal activities/ tweaker 1
tweaker Posted January 2, 2017 Author Posted January 2, 2017 Deposits in Jan Dhan account have more than doubled to Rs 87,000 crore in 45 days post demonetisation, prompting the tax department to "dissect" information relating to such deposits.
jusarrived Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 On 30/12/2016 at 7:17 PM, Singh bling said: Because economies don't run on fancies of some people, tell me which renowned economists of world has suggested this type of move .And I do care about poor and the one who died. may be you people have now become stone hearted like the earlier revolution we saw where people dead but the leaders and their supporters say that so what they are dieing for greater cause future will be great My question is , why do you want it to fail now ? How will that help the poor if we do not get to normalcy sooner ? When most economists them selves have claimed that its impossible to tell at this point to tell if this has failed or been a success , you seem confident that its a failure ?
jusarrived Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 On 01/01/2017 at 0:09 PM, Singh bling said: IT departmen will need 10 years to look at those 4 Lakh crores, At best they can asses 10-20 lakh cases of demonitization and how much they can recover , its upto them. 10 years yes , if we are living in 70s . They are infact a step ahead , data analytics is being used to identify accounts where people have done multiple small transactions to avoid suspicion . dial_100 and beetle 2
jusarrived Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 On 30/12/2016 at 9:34 PM, Singh bling said: Many people on this thread were shouting 1% Indians pay , what they do not know that IT department only has 8000-10000 officers. You want these 8000-10000 taxmen to extract tax from 130 crore people , this is hilarious. What India simply needs is More taxmen and not some superhuman who can solve their problem , Increase strength to 50 k to 1 lakh officers officers in 10 years and see How Indians will start paying taxes it may not help Income tax collections , but can contribute to Job creation . So why not .
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