Is Ravichandran Ashwin most successful indian test cricketer ever

[G_B_]

well on his way I would say

[Riju23]

5 hours ago, G_B_ said:

well on his way I would say

He might be the most successful player in subcontinental conditions or slower, lower pitches ( like what we had in the West Indies). 

 

As dominant as he is in these conditions, he has not yet won test matches in England/Aus/SA. Imran, Warne, and the other legends would have top class performances in these countries on their resume (in addition to doing well in India, Pak, SL, etc)

[Riju23]

Sorry I was comparing him to other players in the world - among Indian cricketers if he has 5 more years at this level of performance, then yes he has a strong claim to the "most successful" distinction IMO. Probably comes down to him vs Sachin, and it would be analogous to a Sachin vs Kallis argument, except Ashwin is a great bowler who is a solid batsman, while Kallis is the other way around. I would put him as no.2 behind Sachin in 5 years' time.

[vvvslaxman]

23 hours ago, Vilander said:

he is lesser than VVS for sure, just plays on drive in a similar fashion and is uniquely nonathletic like him. 

But he plays the low kept balls better than Laxman who constantly got bowled because he was too lazy to bend down.  :)

[Vijy]

5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

But he plays the low kept balls better than Laxman who constantly got bowled because he was too lazy to bend down.  :)

[rtmohanlal]

On 11/29/2016 at 1:18 AM, velu said:

soon he will be equaling imran khan in half the number of games and series played

 

Of late , never rate that bottle top Imran very highly.

[fineleg]

4 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

Of late , never rate that bottle top Imran very highly.

Compare Pak when cheating was 'allowed' and 'pak umpires in home tests' to where they are now - once stricter policies in place

Imran Khan will only 50% effective had he played in current regulated Intl cricket.

Edited December 5, 2016 by fineleg

[rtmohanlal]

On 12/6/2016 at 2:12 AM, fineleg said:

Compare Pak when cheating was 'allowed' and 'pak umpires in home tests' to where they are now - once stricter policies in place

Imran Khan will only 50% effective had he played in current regulated Intl cricket.

yes ...definitely  .... but not sure about that '50% effective' . One thing for sure...Cricket world have seen express fast bowlers(much faster than Imran or of the same fastness or slightly less faster) ... the likes of Jeoff Thomson,Lasith Malinga, Javagal Sreenath,Brett Lee,Shoaib Akhtar,Shaun Tait,Mohammed Sami, Wahab Riaz, Ravindra Pushpakumara etc etc ... if we dig out we  can trace a lot more from history..all testimony to the fact that 'express pace' alone can't be adequate enough to be a great bowler & that  one needs other skills also  along with pace..   Based on this factor, it is  sure that Mr: bottle top  Imran would have benefitted substantially  from the use of his  'reliable partner'.

You are correct... based on the performance of the PAK bowlers  now a days , it is not out of place to  imagine that Imran would have been reduced to even 50% effectiveness in  these multi camera days. But our padosis still chest thump with out any  bit of shame about this certified

cheater.Padosi 'passion sites' are full of such glorifying songs  about this bottle topper.Even a lot of Indians still  glorify this man as a near perfect allrounder  .But for me, not any more... I am sure , i am in the company of many.

Edited December 7, 2016 by rtmohanlal

[mancalledsting]

What's sad is how some Indian and Pak fans go way over the top to discredit legends from either country- to the point where discussions lose all credibility.

 

 

 

 

[Texan]

7 MoS in 15 series is incredible. Nobody has that kind of ratio. 

[BeautifulGame]

The second big grouse that I have with ICF is that all these proclamations of greatest ever are supported by random statistical data. 

It doesn't capture the more important stuff, like the relevance of an innings. eg: A player could have scored a 170 in a non pressure situation batting first and another could have scored a 40 when 50/6 to lead his team to a win etc.

All time greatness is to be measured with moments of magic on the pitch, not from a printout of averages.

What's the first one ?

[rtmohanlal]

5 hours ago, mancalledsting said:

What's sad is how some Indian and Pak fans go way over the top to discredit legends from either country- to the point where discussions lose all credibility.

calling 'a spade' a spade is not  discrediting. Only speaking the truth. Great players irrespective of nationality are always appreciated if  their

'greatness' is always achieved thru fair tactics. That is why players like Hanif Mohammed are hugely respected even by Indians 

5 hours ago, mancalledsting said:

 

 

 

 

 

[mancalledsting]

Ok so what you're saying is that Imran Khan/Sehwag not being ATGs Is equivalent to calling a spade a spade?

[rtmohanlal]

19 hours ago, mancalledsting said:

Ok so what you're saying is that Imran Khan/Sehwag not being ATGs Is equivalent to calling a spade a spade?

leave aside Sehwag. What unfair tactics did he adopt to boost his batting performance? also i  wonder  you again asked this question when i gave my reasons so clearly in the earlier message itself.

[mancalledsting]

4 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

leave aside Sehwag. What unfair tactics did he adopt to boost his batting performance? also i  wonder  you again asked this question when i gave my reasons so clearly in the earlier message itself.

Because I want to clearly expose your lack of credibility. Couple of things, go to any professional cricketing circles and say Imran Khan wasn't an all time great or was only great because of bottle tops.....you will be treated like a joke (maybe appropriately given your earlier statements).  I'm glad we have experts like you to correct the greater than 100 years worth of judgment of Richie benaud and Ian chapell. 

 

Secondly get a cricket ball, scratch one side with whatever you like and see if you become a world class bowler. Do you even know that the effects of ball tampering are debatable and unproven?

 

Also if you're certainly sure that his bowling average was boosted to ATG status by ball tampering then you should also make a new thread about how he was an ATG batsmen (with only an average of 38) because he also mentioned that "ball tampering"was widespread amongst all bowlers during his career 

Edited December 8, 2016 by mancalledsting

[rtmohanlal]

3 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

Because I want to clearly expose your lack of credibility. Couple of things, go to any professional cricketing circles and say Imran Khan wasn't an all time great or was only great because of bottle tops.....you will be treated like a joke (maybe appropriately given your earlier statements).  I'm glad we have experts like you to correct the greater than 100 years worth of judgment of Richie benaud and Ian chapell. 

 

Secondly get a cricket ball, scratch one side with whatever you like and see if you become a world class bowler. Do you even know that the effects of ball tampering are debatable and unproven?

 

Also if you're certainly sure that his bowling average was boosted to ATG status by ball tampering then you should also make a new thread about how he was an ATG batsmen (with only an average of 38) because he also mentioned that "ball tampering"was widespread amongst all bowlers during his career 

Your  response is so comically contradictory. But then no wonder... when people get emotional even the wisest ones can make such foolish mistakes.This is because on one side you are asking 'Do you even know that the effects of ball tampering are debatable and unproven?'

On another side of the coin you are stating 'he also mentioned that "ball tampering"was widespread amongst all bowlers during his career '.

My question here is if the effects of ball tampering are debatable and unproven  why was ball tampering  widespread amongst all bowlers during his career? Contradiction  at its very best .Isn't it?

 

Cricket related personalities like  Ian Botham,Alan Lamb,Robin Smith, John Reid, Balwinder Sandhu,Mohinder Amarnath,Maninder singh,Ravi Sastri,Aamer sohail, Shahbaz Sherif,Sarfraz Nawaz, Rameez Raja  are all testimony to the fact that Imran was a  severe bottle topper.

You search in the net using  any of above names, 'ball tamper' , 'imran' etc etc you will get detailed reports.Of these the icing on the cake is 

certainly a Rameez Raja article in cricinfo  where he briefly describes 'ball tampering' as some patent material of Pakistani bowlers.

So i am just reflecting the sentiments of these several cricket related  personalities.  

 

 

[mancalledsting]

Lol.....

 

widespread usage does not equal proven benefit  

e.g. Majority of batsmen past and present have perculiar superstitions with regards to their batting e.g. Sitting in pavilion with or without pads etc. But it still holds true that the positive effects of such behaviours are debatable and unproven.

 

Imagine if padosis started a thread saying gavaskar, sachin and VVS were only good batsmen because they were Sai baba devotees and acquired extra batting ability through his black magic...this where silly arguments such as yours end up heading...hence my original comments that it's SAD and lacks CREDIBILITY 

 

"Ian botham and Alan lamb" both were involved in a court case against Imran- of course they're not gonna be praiseworthy of him 

 

"Robin Smith, John Reid, Balwinder Sandhu,Mohinder Amarnath,Maninder singh,Ravi Sastri,Aamer sohail, Shahbaz Sherif,Sarfraz Nawaz, Rameez Raja" ....aaa yes, the all time greats, we really are scraping the barrel here aren't we ...why stop there, I'm just surprised you haven't referenced sadam hussein and colonel gadaffi

 

also Your beloved Rameez raja recently named him in his all time XI, so I'm not sure where your headed with citing Rameez to discredit Imran's career performance 

 

see link if you don't believe me:

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Typically bowlers are more result oriented in Tests. IN terms of bringing results to the team Kapil > Sunny,  Kumble > Sachin,  Ash > Kohli when they played together.  When you can bat as well your value goes up a notch. When you do all these things under pressure most of the time that becomes even more invaluable.Ashwin cannot be Warnie  or Murali overseas. But he should do significantly better than now . Atleast 2 or 3 wickets an innings abroad.

Edited December 8, 2016 by vvvslaxman

[rtmohanlal]

51 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

Lol.....

 

widespread usage does not equal proven benefit  

e.g. Majority of batsmen past and present have perculiar superstitions with regards to their batting e.g. Sitting in pavilion with or without pads etc. But it still holds true that the positive effects of such behaviours are debatable and unproven.

 

Imagine if padosis started a thread saying gavaskar, sachin and VVS were only good batsmen because they were Sai baba devotees and acquired extra batting ability through his black magic...this where silly arguments such as yours end up heading...hence my original comments that it's SAD and lacks CREDIBILITY 

 

"Ian botham and Alan lamb" both were involved in a court case against Imran- of course they're not gonna be praiseworthy of him 

 

"Robin Smith, John Reid, Balwinder Sandhu,Mohinder Amarnath,Maninder singh,Ravi Sastri,Aamer sohail, Shahbaz Sherif,Sarfraz Nawaz, Rameez Raja" ....aaa yes, the all time greats, we really are scraping the barrel here aren't we ...why stop there, I'm just surprised you haven't referenced sadam hussein and colonel gadaffi

 

also Your beloved Rameez raja recently named him in his all time XI, so I'm not sure where your headed with citing Rameez to discredit Imran's career performance 

 

see link if you don't believe me:

 

 

heights of logic.... ball tampering compared with superstitions...and Sai Baba blessing .... nothing more to say. believe in what ever u do ... i shall stick on with mine ...nothing more to say...

 

 

 

 

[Vijy]

51 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Typically bowlers are more result oriented in Tests. IN terms of bringing results to the team Kapil > Sunny,  Kumble > Sachin,  Ash > Kohli when they played together.  When you can bat as well your value goes up a notch. When you do all these things under pressure most of the time that becomes even more invaluable.Ashwin cannot be Warnie  or Murali overseas. But he should do significantly better than now . Atleast 2 or 3 wickets an innings abroad.

3 wkts per innings = 6 per match. Too much for any spinner overseas. I'd be happy with 2 per innings.