Guess who gets dropped

[Texan]

8 minutes ago, maniac said:

How many games has Umesh played in South Africa,England,Newzealand?

 

He played in Australia where he too has a 5wkt and 4 wkt haul when our entire bowling unit sucked collectively.

 

 

Even Bhuv has played only in England out of those countries where he was our best bowler. In Australia, his average is 44 after 7 Tests, hardly flattering records. He has actually regressed there after the 2012 tour ( when he was pretty good). 

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, Texan said:

That spell against SA was also in conditions that tend to suit Umesh's bowling. SA batsmen were looking to dead bat everything, so Umesh did not have to worry about leaking runs and even any bad balls that he bowled were not put away for any runs.  Those kind of conditions are rare to encounter in Tests. Most teams are not going to look at dead batting everything, especially after neither SA nor England were successful in saving a Test in that manner. 

Yes Umesh has to work out a lot of things.....Yes Umesh doesn't have the stats to show for...but on a lifeless pitch Umesh over Bhuvi any day....You need players who can force things...when we go abroad you know why they give us flatish pitches...because their bowlers(Aus,Eng,SA) are consistently faster and fitter and our fast bowlers run out of steam quicker...green tracks and spicy pitches take out the gulf in quality of the attacks.....We almost won a test in South Africa and in New zealand on good bowling tracks.

 

Likes of Umesh,Shami and Ishant in the last 2 years have been a revelation because they are fit and not down on pace even in their 2nd,3rd or 4th spells.

 

Add the variety of Bhuvi and get in a left-armer and we have a fast bowling attack that can win us games.

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, Texan said:

Even Bhuv has played only in England out of those countries where he was our best bowler. In Australia, his average is 44 after 7 Tests, hardly flattering records. He has actually regressed there after the 2012 tour ( when he was pretty good). 

Firstly Umesh and Bhuvi are different kind of bowlers and their is a space for both of them but on these pitches Umesh is a better bet than Bhuvi and that is my perspective. There was no swing on offer yesterday...did you see the over he bowled to Root...almost had him 3/6 deliveries...That is what he brings in.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Texan said:

In ODIs this year, Umesh's economy rate is 6.5 and bowling average is 39. 

I was talking about the last NZ series...where Umesh took 8 wickets from 5 matches at an average of 29.5  and ER of 5.75.

 

He has been more consistently accurate from the middle of this year, after Kumble has become the coach.

[Texan]

10 minutes ago, maniac said:

Firstly Umesh and Bhuvi are different kind of bowlers and their is a space for both of them but on these pitches Umesh is a better bet than Bhuvi and that is my perspective. There was no swing on offer yesterday...did you see the over he bowled to Root...almost had him 3/6 deliveries...That is what he brings in.

Records don't prove what you are saying. At the end of the day what matters is how many wickets you have or how many runs you have scored. Just like batsmen - you could have the most eye pleasing technique in the World ( Mohd Wasim, John Crawley, many others), but if you can't get runs, you're not good enough. Conversely, you could have what looks like a terrible batting technique (Steven Smith, Chanderpaul), but if you are making runs, then thats all that matters. 

[BeautifulGame]

How many games has Umesh played in South Africa,England,Newzealand?

 

He played in Australia where he too has a 5wkt and 4 wkt haul when our entire bowling unit sucked collectively.

 

 

And what did he do when he played in helpful conditions in Srilanka.He has pace and decent ability with reverse swing .Not much in international cricket really.

His 2012 tour to Australia was decent but that was 6 years back.He simply doesn't have the new ball skills or consistency to be a good bowler .His skills with the new ball simply sucks that's why isn't really considered in conditions like England or New Zealand

In this same series where Shami is averaging 25 , he is averaging over 70.Heck let alone the Bhuvi argument If we can find Shami , why not give chance another youngster who can perform similarly instead of keep playing a 29 year old Umesh who is just bowling hopelessly.

[BeautifulGame]

Yes Umesh has to work out a lot of things.....Yes Umesh doesn't have the stats to show for...but on a lifeless pitch Umesh over Bhuvi any day....You need players who can force things...when we go abroad you know why they give us flatish pitches...because their bowlers(Aus,Eng,SA) are consistently faster and fitter and our fast bowlers run out of steam quicker...green tracks and spicy pitches take out the gulf in quality of the attacks.....We almost won a test in South Africa and in New zealand on good bowling tracks.

 

Likes of Umesh,Shami and Ishant in the last 2 years have been a revelation because they are fit and not down on pace even in their 2nd,3rd or 4th spells.

 

Add the variety of Bhuvi and get in a left-armer and we have a fast bowling attack that can win us games.

On a lifeless flat wicket , the primary aspect to take wicket is to bowl consistent tight lines and force batsmen to make mistakes.With Umesh spray gun approach thats the last thing he is capable off.Neither is Ishant remotely capable of that either .

The only one with ability to certain extent is Shami and it's pretty much useless when other end we keep bowling hit me balls every over.

In which series in last 2 years has been a revelation seriously?

[Tibarn]

Not really interested in the Bhuvi vs Umesh stuff...

 

Just pointing out that Umesh's Australia stats are actually pretty good, if the question is his ability on helpful pitches:

 

He has played 7 matches there and his overall average is 43.96, very high, but his strike rate is 56.7, which is good.

 

The numbers are very skewed, particularly based off of 1 ground: Sydney

 

Sydney:

1 Wicket 305 Average 324 Strike Rate

There was 1 drop off his bowling which would bring the numbers down to 

152.5 and Strike Rate to 162.

These stats are atrocious. But one should keep in mind that Sydney has tended toward being a flat pitch for a while now, even before the drop-in pitches trend in Australia.

 

Rest of Australia: 

In the rest of Australia, the numbers are almost the polar opposite: 

An average of 33.1 and a strike rate of 45.6. The average is a little high, 32 would be better, but the strike rate is outstanding. For a player that is supposed to be a strike bowler, that is terrific. 

 

Anyway, that is just food for thought, not related the Bhuvi vs Umesh.

  

[BeautifulGame]

Not really interested in the Bhuvi vs Umesh stuff...

 

Just pointing out that Umesh's Australia stats are actually pretty good, if the question is his ability on helpful pitches:

 

He has played 7 matches there and his overall average is 43.96, very high, but his strike rate is 56.7, which is good.

 

The numbers are very skewed, particularly based off of 1 ground: Sydney

 

Sydney:

1 Wicket 305 Average 324 Strike Rate

There was 1 drop off his bowling which would bring the numbers down to 

152.5 and Strike Rate to 162.

These stats are atrocious. But one should keep in mind that Sydney has tended toward being a flat pitch for a while now, even before the drop-in pitches trend in Australia.

 

Rest of Australia: 

In the rest of Australia, the numbers are almost the polar opposite: 

An average of 33.1 and a strike rate of 45.6. The average is a little high, 32 would be better, but the strike rate is outstanding. For a player that is supposed to be a strike bowler, that is terrific. 

 

Anyway, that is just food for thought, not related the Bhuvi vs Umesh.

  

Yeah one thing I agree it is unfair to blame Umesh or any of our bowlers for their performance in that Australia tour .The pitches were absolutely pathetic roads and we lost the toss and bowled first all three flat pitches

[Silva]

When picking pace bowler for overseas test matches You also have to take into account the kookaburra ball doesn't reverse much and swings conventionally a lot more than the sg ball.  On bouncier pitches if BK can find swing he can be effective very effective because the pitch will make up for his lack of pace. Lets not forget in 2008 India could have won that series in australia mainly because of RP singh and Irfan pathans swing bowling and IMO BK is only one comparable to them in term of getting swing in the current squad. Shami relies more on getting movement of the pitch i think. Yadav has a big out swinger but not that consistent or on target.

 

On Indian pitches it won't make much of difference which pace bowlers you play.

 

Edited December 16, 2016 by Silva

[Texan]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

I was talking about the last NZ series...where Umesh took 8 wickets from 5 matches at an average of 29.5  and ER of 5.75.

 

He has been more consistently accurate from the middle of this year, after Kumble has become the coach.

Those are not great figures either. All other India bowlers barring Dhawal who played one game had a better economy rate. 

[Cricketics]

Here is my concern for all Umesh fanatics at home who keep calling Bhuvi " Trundler" and claim that he won't do well at home as compared to Bhuvi.  Fact is that Bhuvi has done better at home than Umesh. Umesh has gotten more chances than him.

 

You guys keep mentioning that Bhuvi is good for AWAY only but not for HOME and that Umesh is a must for home. Fact is that Umesh, if not for two flat wickets of Sydney and Adelaide, has better AWAY stats than HOME stats, contrary to your claims that Umesh is more suitable for HOME.

 

Here are some stats for you guys to digest.

 

Bhuvi has clearly bowled better on all the HOME wickets.

 

When Bhuvneshwar Bowls at HOME

 

When Umesh bowls at HOME

[New guy]

12 hours ago, maniac said:

Yes Umesh has to work out a lot of things.....Yes Umesh doesn't have the stats to show for...but on a lifeless pitch Umesh over Bhuvi any day....You need players who can force things...when we go abroad you know why they give us flatish pitches...because their bowlers(Aus,Eng,SA) are consistently faster and fitter and our fast bowlers run out of steam quicker...green tracks and spicy pitches take out the gulf in quality of the attacks.....We almost won a test in South Africa and in New zealand on good bowling tracks.

 

Likes of Umesh,Shami and Ishant in the last 2 years have been a revelation because they are fit and not down on pace even in their 2nd,3rd or 4th spells.

 

Add the variety of Bhuvi and get in a left-armer and we have a fast bowling attack that can win us games.

Yes thats why bhuvi is consisntely bowling better than Umesh on lifeless Indian wickets. Ha, ha. Umesh over Bhuvi on lifeless wickets any day not because he does better, but because you want to jerk off to speed gun readings while he does nothing

 

No stats to show for? Will you make the same excuse for a batsman constantly making ducks? Again just want to jerk off to speed guns

 

Once again LIES and more LIEs about Bhuvi not doing well in 2nd spells and 4th spells! If you have to lie to support Umesh then that is clearly a problem. Now you are lying so thast you can jerk off to speed gun readings. Your deliberate ignoring that Umesh gets only 4-5 overs spell so of course he will be refreshed compared to a bowler who bowls 8-10 overs at a stretch is telling

 

Your post is nothing except emotional nonsense and blatant lies. You tried to put Umesh with Shami whereas Shami is on a different planet and Umesh is a failure. Once again yoi just want to circle jerk to Umesh's speed gun readings everything in your post is  devoid of facts and is just a wish fulfilling fantasy

Edited December 17, 2016 by New guy

[maniac]

Booyah!!! take that Umesh haterz this is what he brings to the table....and this is not a insult to Bhuvi who I think has is own skill sets and is a good bowler but Umesh -This is what he can bring to the table again.

 

Terrific stuff....even Botham and who better than Ian botham to talk about fast bowling says Umesh is underrated

[CG]

Umesh has been really unlucky ,He easily had a 5 with wicket haul at Rajkot if not for drops.It would have been a motivator.His big improvement is he is able to bowl boring spells and maintain line outside off stump instead of going for magic balls.Wickets will come if he maintains his composure.We have a good attack going .

[GautiMaan]

Might as well have played Bhuvi than Mishra.

 

[Unleashed]

Indian fans are the most whiniest set of fans I've ever seen. We have right now one of the best coach-captain combos we've got in ages and what do we do? Complain about one change which has been vindicated so far in this match. 

 

Kohli has made it clear that he loves pace and it's very, very evident right now. Gone are those days when we flow in RP Singh straight from Miami to play in a match in England or when we played a clearly unfit Zak in SA. Gone are those half assed spells, you need to be at the batsmen 24/7, if you want to stay in this team.

 

This pitch is very slow and at Bhuvi's pace, English batters would have found it easy to play his swing. Umesh and Ishant were the right choices. When it's a green deck, then Bhuvi will get his chances. 

[Unleashed]

Also pretty sure that had Ishant not taken a wicket yesterday, the OP would have criticised management for picking Ishant. 

[Cricketics]

22 minutes ago, Unleashed said:

Indian fans are the most whiniest set of fans I've ever seen. We have right now one of the best coach-captain combos we've got in ages and what do we do? Complain about one change which has been vindicated so far in this match. 

 

Kohli has made it clear that he loves pace and it's very, very evident right now. Gone are those days when we flow in RP Singh straight from Miami to play in a match in England or when we played a clearly unfit Zak in SA. Gone are those half assed spells, you need to be at the batsmen 24/7, if you want to stay in this team.

 

This pitch is very slow and at Bhuvi's pace, English batters would have found it easy to play his swing. Umesh and Ishant were the right choices. When it's a green deck, then Bhuvi will get his chances. 

I think you got that wrong. It is good to show faith in Umesh, but most people here like most Umesh fans, also like Umesh, they just feel Bhuvi isn't as bad as he is made out to be, and if you pay attention to some stats, they do post a valid argument and prove that Bhuvi has indeed bowled well in home conditions. Actually, not just well, he has bowled better than Umesh. Stats show a big difference.

 

Umesh is good at the pace when he is going well. I would love to have him if he can do what he just did to Moeen Ali and bowl the good line and length at that pace, but it is eventually the good line and length which will get you more wickets, even if it is dead track orgreen.

 

And if you do not agree with that, thenhe stats prove it over and over that you can have as much pace you want, if you do not bowl good and consistent line, you won't get wicket. We need a bowler who is accurate, and we have seen enough of Bhuvi to make that statement that he is the one who can do it for India on regular basis.

 

I can be excited by Umesh's  short burst right now, but I know he doesn't do that often of what he just did to Moeen Ali. I want to see more of that from Umesh, but he struggles too many times and doesn't replicate it.

 

Bhuvi, as most feel here, has enough pace and line and length to trouble any batsman and get wickets. He is not bowling at spinners pace. He is still a fast bowler, faster than a medium fast. Good enough for international cricket. Good enough for test cricket. Good enough to average more than our other Indian bowlers on our very own Indian pitches. If one has doubts about his consistency to get wickets, refer to the stats.

[Unleashed]

5 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

I think you got that wrong. It is good to show faith in Umesh, but most people here like most Umesh fans, also like Umesh, they just feel Bhuvi isn't as bad as he is made out to be, and if you pay attention to some stats, they do post a valid argument and prove that Bhuvi has indeed bowled well in home conditions. Actually, not just well, he has bowled better than Umesh. Stats show a big difference.

 

Umesh is good at the pace when he is going well. I would love to have him if he can do what he just did to Moeen Ali and bowl the good line and length at that pace, but it is eventually the good line and length which will get you more wickets, even if it is dead track orgreen.

 

And if you do not agree with that, thenhe stats prove it over and over that you can have as much pace you want, if you do not bowl good and consistent line, you won't get wicket. We need a bowler who is accurate, and we have seen enough of Bhuvi to make that statement that he is the one who can do it for India on regular basis.

 

I can be excited by Umesh's  short burst right now, but I know he doesn't do that often of what he just did to Moeen Ali. I want to see more of that from Umesh, but he struggles to many times and doesn't replicate it.

 

Bhuvi, as most feel here, has enough pace and line and length to trouble any batsman and get wickets. He is not bowling at spinners pace. He is still a fast bowler, faster than a medium fast. Good enough for international cricket. Good enough for test cricket. Good enough to average more than our other Indian bowlers on our very own Indian pitches. If one has doubts about his consistency to get wickets, refer to the stats.

In this setup, there's only one pace bowler whose place is confirmed and that's Shami. Rest will be selected on the basis of the pitch, this pitch is ridiculously slow and has more or less nothing for pace bowlers. Selecting Umesh over Bhuvi for me has been the right choice so far. 

 

Stats wise Bhuvi is much better than Umesh agreed though.