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Speed,Swing &Performance of Fast Bowlers & Swing Bowlers in 2018 IPL

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2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Avesh didnt spray the ball. He was bowling short, trying to bounce out rayudu. Rajpoot is getting seam of the pitch and extra bounce, not swing. This pitch as extra bounce and seam of the pitch. If Avesh got a pitch like this, he wouldn't resort to short stuff. 

did u see the match....loolz making a fool out of urself....see the swing in the air......

 

 

24 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Rajpoot 2nd over

 

143 k

143 k

141 k ... outswinger

141 k ... edges but 4

143 k ... outswinger

139 k ...  4

 

 

This is my issue with Rajpoot.  He can bowl this pace with outswing ... but often chooses to bowl within himself.

 

what does ouswinger means???  hahhahahahaah     .......don't try too hard to prove ur logic....

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Just now, Rightarmfast said:

Stress fracture is a result of a lot different reason, not age. And anyway, the topic is on stamina.

Age is the biggest reason. At young age, body isn't mature, strong enough to sustain the rigors of bowling fast day in day out. Our body isn't made for unusual movement bwhile bowling. Stress fracture is due to stress on spinal bones as they bend the back. Most tearaways gets stress fractures till 24-25. Aaron hasn't got once he crossed that age. Same with Yadav. Same with Cummins. Mitch starc. Mitch Johnson got 4 stress fractures by the age of 22. But as their body got stronger, they coped the workload. 

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5 minutes ago, LORD_analyst said:

did u see the match....loolz making a fool out of urself....see the swing in the air......

 

 

what does ouswinger means???  hahhahahahaah     .......don't try too hard to prove ur logic....

Ball is going of the pitch. It's not swing but seam. People like you who have no idea about bowling do find it difficult to differentiate between Sean and swing. It's more outseam, not outswing. People in layman's terms call it outswing too. Like Dale steyn who bowls more outseam than outswing. Anderson bowls outswing.

Edited by rkt.india

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5 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Age is the biggest reason. At young age, body isn't mature, strong enough to sustain the rigors of bowling fast day in day out. Our body isn't made for unusual movement bwhile bowling. Stress fracture is due to stress on spinal bones as they bend the back. Most tearaways gets stress fractures till 24-25. Aaron hasn't got once he crossed that age. Same with Yadav. Same with Cummins. Mitch starc. Mitch Johnson got 4 stress fractures by the age of 22. But as their body got stronger, they coped the workload. 

A very simplistic logic. I would be surprised if even the doctors can give exact answers though. The reason some ( and not all ) young fast bowlers get injured is because of their incorrect exercises or lack of warm up exercises. It is NOT  the age, but the incorrect practices. 

However, the topic here was stamina, and not stress fracture.

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8 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Don't write Avesh off based on IPL. He's a talented kid with a lot of potential. 

Shutiyas comparing Avesh bowling on a dust bowl to this pitch. Bowler always bowls according to the pitch and batsman. Avesh too would have bowled differently on this pitch.

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1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

Could you elaborate please.  Not clear what you are trying to say.

the ball was moving in the air ,away from the batsman....swing 

 

if the ball pitches and then deviates off the pitch - seam......rajppot was getting movement in the air.

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5 minutes ago, S_pace said:

If we rate both of them (Rajpoot and Avesh ) on basis of thinking bowler then we would definitely rate Rajpoot higher than Avesh. 

exactly..i am not writing off avesh but i am saying that rajpoot has bowled jaffas which will be more suitable for england tour.

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1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Shutiyas comparing Avesh bowling on a dust bowl to this pitch. Bowler always bowls according to the pitch and batsman. Avesh too would have bowled differently on this pitch.

Avesh has potential, physique, pace but he doesn't put his mind often into bowling especially when he gets tonked for few boundaries and he goes haywire with his line and length and that's why he didn't get many FC matches last season. Lets us see this year what he brings in his game.

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6 minutes ago, S_pace said:

If we rate both of them (Rajpoot and Avesh ) on basis of thinking bowler then we would definitely rate Rajpoot higher than Avesh. 

 

Rajpoot has been playing FC , List A and T20s for a long time. Has a lot of experience.

 

Avesh is a rookie tearaway.

 

It is difficult to compare them.

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7 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

A very simplistic logic. I would be surprised if even the doctors can give exact answers though. The reason some ( and not all ) young fast bowlers get injured is because of their incorrect exercises or lack of warm up exercises. It is NOT  the age, but the incorrect practices. 

However, the topic here was stamina, and not stress fracture.

Not some, most young tearaways get stress fractures at some stage early on when they are young and it has nothing to do with warmup or exercise but stress on the spinal bone when you bowl fast and go through the same thing ball after ball, that stress leads to stress fracture. Nathu Singh is the latest Indian to suffer it at 21 last year while bowling in the Match for GL.

 

And it's not a logic but a proven fact about young tearaways. Reason Aus did not pick Cummins for 6 years in test cricket after he got a stress fracture in 2011 after test debut.

Edited by rkt.india

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40 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Dude, he is a national level sportsman. He has played U19 for India. The training is no joke. Saying something like he doesnt have the stamina is making an umbrella statement without any basis. 

 

You can say he lacks in experience, or he doesnt have experience to understand when to bowl fast or when to bowl slow. Or his muscles may not have developed fully to be bowling at full pace yet, throughout the day. Saying he doesnt have stamina is ignorance. The kind of training state level athletes get is phenomenal, and the international players are on a different level. 

 

And anyways, even in Test, you get to bowl max 4-6 overs on a trot. Its not that you have to keep bowling the entire day. And incase you are missing, the younger guys are the fittest and have the most stamina. The older guys have experience and know how to handle their body!

     The context was to the comment that he will do good in tests , which i  think could be atleast >3  years away  IMO and that too if he develops  wicket taking deliveries , not just short balls/slower balls/yorkers , which in test cricket will be palyed with care.. 

     Dude  please read again what i said  " right Now "  , did i say he will never have stamina ?

     I think right now most probably Navdeep Saini & Rajpoot may fit in test side among the  pacers.  

      

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2 minutes ago, LORD_analyst said:

the ball was moving in the air ,away from the batsman....swing 

 

if the ball pitches and then deviates off the pitch - seam......rajppot was getting movement in the air.

No he was not,he was seaming the ball,it deviated after hitting the deck..Rajpoot is bowling beautifully but he is certainly not swinging it brother,Its a bowling paradise why are you comparing it with a batting paradise??cant say how Avesh could have fared here,but his pace could have caused inconvenience to the batsmen,his pace is such that even edges could have gone for boundary

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3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Not some, most young tearaways get stress fractures at some stage early on when they are young and it has nothing to do with warmup or exercise but stress on the spinal bone when you bowl fast and go through the same thing ball after ball, that stress leads to stress fracture. Nathu Singh is the latest Indian to suffer it at 21 last year while bowling in the Match for GL.

I disagree! However, I choose to walkaway from this argument. If you believe your argument about stress fracture and age, good for you!

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39 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Two different pitches. People have no idea what they are talking about. Rajpoot too got thrashed in previous games on flat pitches.

 

There has been swing in the air and seam on the pitch in this match. Good and decent pacers opening the innings are having a field day.

 

I don't know why Avesh Khan, with little experience, on his worst day, on a flat pitch  is being compared to ...  Rajpoot with decent FC and IPL experience, on one of his better days, in such helpful bowling conditions.

Edited by express bowling

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39 minutes ago, S_pace said:

. Whatever people here say about Avesh but Rajpoot is truly ahead in queue for England.

 

 

He obviously is.  Rajpoot has been playing FC for 6 reasons, has played in multiple A-team series and has again been chosen for the A-team to England.

 

All discussions about Avesh are about his future potential. First of all, he needs to play more FC  and List A and A team games to prepare himself. Hopefully, he will be reasonably ready for international cricket in 12 to 24 months.

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25 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

I disagree! However, I choose to walkaway from this argument. If you believe your argument about stress fracture and age, good for you!

It's proven fact by doctors. This is the reason, Australians didn't play Cummins in test cricket since 2011 for 6 years when he suffeted stress fracture after his test debut in SA. CA was advised not put him in tests by doctors due to stess fractures. He played second test at 24 after six years of his debut.

 

Read this

 

https://physioworks.com.au/injuries-conditions-1/lumbar-stress-fractures-cricket-fast-bowlers

 

Edited by rkt.india

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1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

It's proven fact by doctors. This is the reason, Australians didn't play Cummins in test cricket since 2011 for 6 years when he suffeted stress fracture after his test debut in SA. CA was advised not put him in tests by doctors due to stess fractures. He played second test at 24 after six years of his debut.

Yes it's the part of growth process, flexibility, bone getting stronger and dense n happens at a older age

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21 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

No he was not,he was seaming the ball,it deviated after hitting the deck..Rajpoot is bowling beautifully but he is certainly not swinging it brother,Its a bowling paradise why are you comparing it with a batting paradise??cant say how Avesh could have fared here,but his pace could have caused inconvenience to the batsmen,his pace is such that even edges could have gone for boundary

He does get some swing brother whenever he pitches it up, mostly outswing, reason why he is using that new ball, but its his pace and bounce  and seam is what does more damage, the guy is a complete bowler.

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5 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

     BTW , how good it would be to see pitches like these in most of the IPL matches instead massacre of bowling everyday ? 

Yes, was craving for a pitch like this.

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1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

I think having a good yorker or slower ball do not necessarily make someone an LOI bowler.

 

Along with these and decent channel deliveries ... what I liked about Prasidh in the IPL and VHT and Khaleel in SMA Trophy was that ... they kept a cool head when the batters were trying to attack.

 

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

 

And I for one believe that Test cricket is the best form of the game to make a debut in. Not any form of LOI. The batsmen do not jump at you in Test cricket. And even if you fail on the first day, you always have the 2nd day or the 2nd innings to make amends. But a bad outing in an ODI or T20 could very well mean mental disintegration and a long time scar. Not to forget, a bad innigs could break one's career entirely.

 

A very valid point.  However,  I don't  remember the last time a young pacer was debuted in test matches.  

 

The next best option is ODIs.

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21 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Rajpoot to Billings 

https://imgur.com/a/lqdUojy

 

Didnt bowl even 1%of this kind in previous matches ,he possesses so much spark,its only 4 overs bowl with your full effort don't spare a bit ,great delivery,we have got huge pool of fast bowlers now ..not only for t20s but others too..i think the current crop forced the likes of Umesh to evolve may be its insecurity,really hope the tall Unlucky Sharma too gets insecure and gets Lucky

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1 minute ago, Suhaan said:

Didnt bowl even 1%of this kind in previous matches ,he possesses so much spark,its only 4 overs bowl with your full effort don't spare a bit ,great delivery,we have got huge pool of fast bowlers now ..not only for t20s but others too..i think the current crop forced the likes of Umesh to evolve may be its insecurity,really hope the tall Unlucky Sharma too gets insecure and gets Lucky

It's all about conditions.

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18 minutes ago, speedheat said:

He does get some swing brother whenever he pitches it up, mostly outswing, reason why he is using that new ball, but its his pace and bounce  and seam is what does more damage, the guy is a complete bowler.

Speedbhai ...  looking at Rajpoot bowl , one just hopes that he wants to bowl at the pace he did today in every match.  I don't know why he doesn't.

 

It makes him look so much better as a bowler.

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Rajpoot can be a good option too for England but I would like him to get fitter. He is looking a bit flabby right now. I hate flabby fast bowlers. Big reason that put me off from Shami. You dont deserve to play for India if you have excess flab. 

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1 minute ago, express bowling said:

Speedbhai ...  looking at Rajpoot bowl , one just hopes that he wants to bowl at the pace he did today in every match.  I don't know why he doesn't.

 

It makes him look so much better as a bowler.

They have played many day games in 40 degrees heat. Also, he seems to have gained some excess flab that he needs to shed.

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3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Also, he seems to have gained some excess flab that he needs to shed.

A stint with Kohli and team India ... and this aspect will be rectified.

 

Rajpoot needs to train at the NCA under strength and conditioning coaches.  They helped Bumrah gain pace.

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3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Speedbhai ...  looking at Rajpoot bowl , one just hopes that he wants to bowl at the pace he did today in every match.  I don't know why he doesn't.

 

It makes him look so much better as a bowler.

Bro, he did bowl with the same pace as of today in this tournament, he bowled quick in all those matches he played,  trust me its just that inconsistent speedometer showing fluctuation in his speed.

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20 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Didnt bowl even 1%of this kind in previous matches ,he possesses so much spark,its only 4 overs bowl with your full effort don't spare a bit ,great delivery,we have got huge pool of fast bowlers now ..not only for t20s but others too..i think the current crop forced the likes of Umesh to evolve may be its insecurity,really hope the tall Unlucky Sharma too gets insecure and gets Lucky

      Thats because when there is no help in pitch , batters will simply play through the line and thrash even good / back of length balls .    Due to this bowlers have to go for variations and most of young ones do not have that control  for such variations .

Also if you noticed today , there was no attempt for variations . Just classic Test match bowling with pace  and with some movement it looked very good . 

 Can't expect same level of bowling on dead pitches . 

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25 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Unhelpful conditions should not mean a young pacer bowling much slower.

 

Archer, Bumrah, Mavi, Boult, Prasidh and Avesh never dropped pace irrespective of pitches.

And they still got thrashed.

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12 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

      Thats because when there is no help in pitch , batters will simply play through the line and thrash even good / back of length balls .    Due to this bowlers have to go for variations and most of young ones do not have that control  for such variations .

Also if you noticed today , there was no attempt for variations . Just classic Test match bowling with pace  and with some movement it looked very good . 

 Can't expect same level of bowling on dead pitches . 

Yes. It becomes very difficult to bowl quick consistently when you have to bowl slow balls. They concentrate more on variations.

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2 hours ago, LORD_analyst said:

this over was thousand times better than avesh khan.....avesh khan needs  control......

he will get control very soon..that's not some thing which he cannot get.

Umesh was so reckless , even Varun Aroon- now they have good control.

if he is criticised he will go for too much of control and then become a serious trundler. i guess he was not in full rhythm and thats why he lost his control ..this is a part of growing up of a pace bowler.

if rajput starts bowling like today- he will be a terror. if rajput bowls at avesh's Speed and has the control of a rajput, he will be in indian 11 very very soon.

rajput is a little slower than avesh...or if i say the other way if avesh has the control of rajput , avesh will play for India very soon. i think avesh will get the control soon..not sure rajput will have the speed of avesh though.

 

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46 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

And they still got thrashed.

 

Not talking about thrashing here ( which is common in T20s played on flat tracks )  ... but the tendency of a pacer to bowl at full pace or intensity ...  or not to do so.

 

This tendency to bowl at full pace or intensity is very helpful in test matches and reasonably helpful in ODIs.

Edited by express bowling

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43 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Not talking about thrashing here ( which is common in T20s played on flat tracks )  ... but the tendency of a pacer to bowl at full pace or intensity ...  or not to do so.

 

This tendency to bowl at full pace or intensity is very helpful in test matches and reasonably helpful in ODIs.

Why would you want to give full pace for the batsman to use for his advantage on a flat patta and waste your energy unless you can reverse swing it?

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1 hour ago, vishalvirsingh said:

he will get control very soon..that's not some thing which he cannot get.

umesh and varun spent 5years without control, sreesanth spent his whole career without control.....control requires experience....sounds good but in practicality control is very hard to get.

varun umesh and sreesanth were among most talented indian fast bowlers underachieved due to control.......only now umesh has developed some control after startting his career in 2012.

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