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Harsh Thakor

Was Vishwanath a better batsmen against pace than any other Indian batsmen?

Was Vishwanath the best ever Indian batsmen against genuine pace?  

23 members have voted

  1. 1. Who was the best ever Indian batsmen against genuine pace?

    • Rahul Dravid
    • Gundappa Vishwanath
    • Sachin Tendulkar
    • Sunil Gavaskar
    • VVS Laxman
      0
    • Virat Kohli
    • Mohinder Amarnath
    • Dilip Vengsarkar
      0
    • Virendra Sehwag
      0
    • M.K.Pataudi
    • Vijay Hazare
      0


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6 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Current line up is by far the worst batting line up against run of the mill spinners that too off spinners. As an Indian fan if there is one type of bowling i never ever bothered was, it was off spin including Murali. These guys  just suck.

And Murli has 97 wickets against India and he averages 20s in SL against India. There is a reason fab 4 could not win a test series in SL. Just another perception driven post. If they were so good, they would all be averaging 100s in test cricket and winning us every series. Currently, we only have two batsmen who can be compared to those, Kohli and Pujara.

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9 hours ago, Gollum said:

Vishwanath wasn't consistent and neither was he a run machine, he was more like Laxman...a crisis man who had some valuable understated contributions almost every series not necessarily mammoth scores, and a memorable ATG knock every 2 years or so. Look at his great knocks....there is no pattern. As @Jimmy Cliff said he was an elite match-winner. 

 

And you can't compare him with Sunny or Sachin, those guys had a selfish streak in their batting (like other ATG peers) which is not a bad thing at all...those guys wanted to score many runs and break records. Vishy was not like that, where there was no danger to the team's chances and where he could remain not out he would play an extravagant shot at 30, 40 just for the thrill of it, the concept of staying not out and boosting stats was alien to his philosophy. He had only 10 NOs in 91 tests, Sunny despite being an opener had 16 NOs in 125 tests. 

So an inconsistent batsmen who failed more often than succeeded against pace can't be called the best against pace. It's the consistency that matters.

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4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

So an inconsistent batsmen who failed more often than succeeded against pace can't be called the best against pace. It's the consistency that matters.

.The point is the runs Vishwanath amassed against the genuine pace bowlers in comparison to others and his strike rate and contribution to result of game against them.Read what Michael Holdings says about Vishy .Dravid and Tendulkar had much more opportunities against medium pacers and minnow teams .On fast wickets he overshadowed Gavaskar like at Madras in 1978-79 .Vishy won more games against genuine pace than Sunny.The likes of Dravid and Tendulkar thrived more on the great fast-medium pacers.Look at Vishy in the 4th innings of tests or in a crisis

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18 hours ago, rkt.india said:

It's all relative. This is the biggest reason comparing is difficult.

I agree absolutely in the choice of Mohinder Amarnath in 1983 series in Carribean-best ever against express  pace then.Still Vishy wa s the more talented overall or even Vengsarkar.

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14 hours ago, Gollum said:

Vishwanath wasn't consistent and neither was he a run machine, he was more like Laxman...a crisis man who had some valuable understated contributions almost every series not necessarily mammoth scores, and a memorable ATG knock every 2 years or so. Look at his great knocks....there is no pattern. As @Jimmy Cliff said he was an elite match-winner. 

 

And you can't compare him with Sunny or Sachin, those guys had a selfish streak in their batting (like other ATG peers) which is not a bad thing at all...those guys wanted to score many runs and break records. Vishy was not like that, where there was no danger to the team's chances and where he could remain not out he would play an extravagant shot at 30, 40 just for the thrill of it, the concept of staying not out and boosting stats was alien to his philosophy. He had only 10 NOs in 91 tests, Sunny despite being an opener had 16 NOs in 125 tests. 

Perfect explanation.Vishy was the most unselfish of batsmen who never chased records .Significant that he averaged 6 run smore in games won than Sunny and greater percentage aggregate of runs.Laxman was the the Vishwanath of his era,overshadowing even Sachin against  pace and in 4th innings.It is worth measuring the no or runs Vishy scored against the genuine quickies compared to Sunny,Dravid or Sachin.Dravid and Tendulkar had the advantage of playing against minnows and more fast-medium bowlers and in an ear when there was protective headgear.Vishy turmed or won more games against genuine pace than Sunny or Sachin.

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12 hours ago, Vilander said:

Away matches against Aus, Eng, WI, Pak, SA,NZ

 

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Minow WI removed. Cutoff 2006

 

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by total runs

 

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The vital statistics are the runs amassed by the batsmen against the genuine fast bowlers.Nedd a chart revealing the run sscored by Tendulkar,Gavaskar,Dravid etc against the express pace bowlers.Also analzye their influence on result of matches.Here Vishy rates highly.

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15 hours ago, Vilander said:

it's between Sunny and Amarnath. 

Greats no doubt but not as agressive or dominating as Vishwanath or Vengsrakar against genuine pace.Never also forget great innings by Vengsarkar staging West Indies averaging over 50 with 6 c enturies.Vishy turned more games against great pace than Sunny or Jimmy.

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15 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Voting so far:

 

Sachin - 8

Sunny - 4

 

I thought this would be close between Sunny and Sachin, infact i thought Sunny would win this. Fair enoyugh though.

 

I think Sunny was better against express-ace-faced them without a helmet and as an opener?Agree

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3 minutes ago, Harsh Thakor said:

I think Sunny was better against express-ace-faced them without a helmet and as an opener?Agree

I have already cast my vote for Sunny. Sachin though has gathered twice the votes. Seems like Sachin will win the poll easily as majority thinks that he is better.

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Tendulkar was better all round player vs pace compared to dravid. Dravid struggled in South Africa and even Austrilia except one tour which had no Mcgrath & Warne. Dravid struggled against Murali & Warne too. But if it's swing conditions like england i will bet on dravid for sure.

Edited by Nikola

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2 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

Voting so far:

 

Sachin - 8

Sunny - 4

 

I thought this would be close between Sunny and Sachin, infact i thought Sunny would win this. Fair enoyugh though.

 

Some folks will vote for Tendulkar even for the best WK poll :winky:

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12 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

I also find it amusing that Vilander keeps casting aspersions on peoples' nationalities. And yet people like him run with their tails between their legs when called out on it (like that Stradler or whichever simpleton it was who got exposed the other day). 

If you are talking about @Stradlater, he is a nice chill poster, maybe some miscommunication with you the other day. But you are right about @Vilander, he is the one who whined and whined in the pages long grievances thread and didn't mend his ways after that, what a hypocrite. I will put the onus on the admins here for failing to act and the standard of ICF will continue to go down because of that. People get banned for small things and then we have these double standards, let the forum go to the dogs who cares, if they wanna ban me for pointing out the blatant hypocrisy go right ahead. I mean if you don't want to take action on reported posts, at least spare us the drama of the announcement threads about policy change and stuff....pretty clear their priorities.  

 

But while you are here, there are a few good posters active, who knows how long that'll last. Put the trolls and irritating posters on the Ignore List...you will find the forum experience a bit better. 

Edited by Gollum

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5 hours ago, Harsh Thakor said:

The vital statistics are the runs amassed by the batsmen against the genuine fast bowlers.Nedd a chart revealing the run sscored by Tendulkar,Gavaskar,Dravid etc against the express pace bowlers.Also analzye their influence on result of matches.Here Vishy rates highly.

The problem with removing just pace bowlers and checking is that. Some batsmen play pacers to keep wickets and cash in on other part timers or after they tire. That is also a game plan. So its more rewarding to see against whole bowling unit. May be if you analyze against fast bolwers only then it will show how comfortable the batsmen were against those specific bowlers.

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Modern players with helmet and other protection:

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WEEXeK.gif

Forget chest guard, arm guard, shin guard, stomach padding and whatever * modern day batsmen wear. The helmet alone is such an insurance for today's gen, so much easier to bat with this one equipment. Earlier times even when there were helmets they didn't have grill. I am not saying that after getting hit on the face/head modern batsmen would die or be permanently disabled but can't deny that with this safety net, much of the fear is removed. Also easier to move the feet forward when you have protection. Without helmets once you get hit on your skull by Thommo or Holding chances are your feet will be like lead for the rest of the tour making run scoring that much more difficult. All modern day greats Lara, Kallis, Sanga, Ponting, Waugh, Smith, Kohli etc have benefited massively and against raw pace they can never be rated higher than the oldies. I can easily give 100 other examples of these ATG batsmen getting hit on the helmet, covered above are in the poll options and there are at least 5 instances of each of these batsmen getting hit. 

 

Sunny, Jimmy, Vishy should be top 3 from India, order can change depending on personal preferences and reasons. 

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3 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Sehwag shouldn't even be in the poll option, the number of times he has been hit on the helmet and chest disqualifies him from this sort of discussion. Put him in Sunny/Vishy/Jimmy's era and he will suffer. 

If Vic Richards batted in the helmet era, many would probably say that he would struggle w/o helmets (which he did not apart from a few occasions) 

 

Sehwag has the best avg vs one of the ATG attacks - Aus and has 100s in SA too. When he is in good form (as he is a rhythm player), he is excellent! 

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Sachin and Dravid had genuine quicks at various times like Srinath, Sreesanth, Zak, Munaf, Nehra, Ishant Shami etc to prepare against in the nets, and the bowling machines, technology ofc. 

 

In the 70s our batsmen would face Pataudi, Solkar, Baig in the nets and proceed to the pitch to face Thommo, Lillee, Roberts, Holding etc. Kapil came only in 1978-79, he was just one man and more of a military medium swing bowler than a speed demon. 

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3 minutes ago, zen said:

If Vic Richards batted in the helmet era, many would probably say that he would struggle w/o helmets (which he did not apart from a few occasions) 

 

Sehwag has the best avg vs one of the ATG attacks - Aus and has 100s in SA too. When he is in good form (as he is a rhythm player), he is excellent! 

Richards didn't get hit often and even when he did (once or twice) he proved he could come back. 

 

Sehwag got hit so often that it is bound to raise questions, even his 100s in Aus involved nasty blows which would take a huge toll on him in the earlier era. 

Edited by Gollum

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Just now, Gollum said:

Richards didn't get hit often and even when he did (once or twice) he proved he could come back. 

 

Sehwag got hit so often that it doesn't count, even his 100s in Aus involved nasty blows which would take a huge toll on him in the earlier era. 

Without helmet, he would adjust his game accordingly 

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1 hour ago, Gollum said:

If you are talking about @Stradlater, he is a nice chill poster, maybe some miscommunication with you the other day. But you are right about @Vilander, he is the one who whined and whined in the pages long grievances thread and didn't mend his ways after that, what a hypocrite. I will put the onus on the admins here for failing to act and the standard of ICF will continue to go down because of that. People get banned for small things and then we have these double standards, let the forum go to the dogs who cares, if they wanna ban me for pointing out the blatant hypocrisy go right ahead. I mean if you don't want to take action on reported posts, at least spare us the drama of the announcement threads about policy change and stuff....pretty clear their priorities.  

 

But while you are here, there are a few good posters active, who knows how long that'll last. Put the trolls and irritating posters on the Ignore List...you will find the forum experience a bit better. 

Essentially these blokes just keep claiming I am from the neighbouring country because - DRUMROLL WAIT FOR IT - I make extremely aggressive posts about Pakistan lmfao. I don't really post enough here to worry about blocking people - but you're right, it is an option I will consider if I start spending more time here. I used to post mainly in the tennis forum but now with Federer seemingly done I have no interest there as well.

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29 minutes ago, zen said:

Without helmet, he would adjust his game accordingly 

Exactly. I think this is the point people miss. Maybe the current batsmen get hit much more because they KNOW blows aren't (likely) going to be too dangerous and hence are more prepared to take the hits. If they didn't have the luxury of protecting equipment to put their bodies on the line as much, they would have played differently. This is why it is a tedious debate and one I don't really think is worth it.

 

Re. the selective stats by some posters - Pakistan is being included only to prop up Dravid and put down Tendulkar. India vs Pak mostly happened on dead roads in the 2000s so their records mean nothing with respect to their abilities against pace. The excessive stat filtering with small sample sizes also misleads more than it tells - for ex, Tendu never had issues with Donald vs SA, but kept getting out to Cronje. If we make 1 series the sample size to include Amarnath etc, then it opens a huge can of worms. To take it to the extreme, we could look at one ball and say that the six Balaji hit off Akhtar is the greatest shot against express pace hit by an India and use that to claim Balaji's peak vs fast bowlers is the best....

 

The most objective comparison would be to look at overall records in Eng/SA/Aus (and NZ if you want) for Tendu and Dravid. For Gavaskar, you could replace SA with WI or some such thing.

 

For me, the list (factoring records and other things) would be:

 

1) Tendulkar

2) Gavaskar

3) Kohli

4) Dravid

and the rest....

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17 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

Exactly. I think this is the point people miss. Maybe the current batsmen get hit much more because they KNOW blows aren't (likely) going to be too dangerous and hence are more prepared to take the hits. If they didn't have the luxury of protecting equipment to put their bodies on the line as much, they would have played differently. This is why it is a tedious debate and one I don't really think is worth it.

 

Re. the selective stats by some posters - Pakistan is being included only to prop up Dravid and put down Tendulkar. India vs Pak mostly happened on dead roads in the 2000s so their records mean nothing with respect to their abilities against pace. The excessive stat filtering with small sample sizes also misleads more than it tells - for ex, Tendu never had issues with Donald vs SA, but kept getting out to Cronje. If we make 1 series the sample size to include Amarnath etc, then it opens a huge can of worms. To take it to the extreme, we could look at one ball and say that the six Balaji hit off Akhtar is the greatest shot against express pace hit by an India and use that to claim Balaji's peak vs fast bowlers is the best....

 

The most objective comparison would be to look at overall records in Eng/SA/Aus (and NZ if you want) for Tendu and Dravid. For Gavaskar, you could replace SA with WI or some such thing.

 

For me, the list (factoring records and other things) would be:

 

1) Tendulkar

2) Gavaskar

3) Kohli

4) Dravid

and the rest....

Pace is pace roads or not.  Akhtar cleaned up both SRT and Dravid by sheer pace in India.

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1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Richards didn't get hit often and even when he did (once or twice) he proved he could come back. 

 

Sehwag got hit so often that it is bound to raise questions, even his 100s in Aus involved nasty blows which would take a huge toll on him in the earlier era. 

games are adjusted according to rules and situations.  How many batsmen died when there was no helmet? According to this logic, every batsman who did not get hit or died on the pitch in helmet-less era was better against pace than modern batsmen.

 

Did you watch every game of Richards? i do not think you have.  you are just making up things because I can show you a video where a fast bowler was making Richards dance all over the pitch.

Edited by rkt.india

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I followed Indian team since 1971. Sunny was easily the best batsman. Amarnath had peaked in 1982 in what was the toughest attack faced by Indian batsmen against the pace quartet of WI that too at their home. iirc he scored about 550  runs against them. Vishy used to struggle against swing . He relatively used to play better in Australian conditions though on the odd ocassions. He thrived on home conditions in lack of swing as he was wonderful against spinners. Having said that Vishy was one our our top player though in some conditions. Wadekar was awesome against Kiwis and England, both series which we won. Engineer too made good use of his county experience even though he was a wicket keeper primarily. Sardesai and Wadekar played well in tougher series although they were not rated as much. To me they were under rated cricketers. Wadekar batted at one down even then he handed the tough conditions lot better in NZ and England.

Edited by Straight Drive

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1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Pace is pace roads or not.  Akhtar cleaned up both SRT and Dravid by sheer pace in India.

That's a massive oversimplification. Akhtar in Perth isn't the same as Akhtar on slow subcontinent road. Regardless, Tendu never even played Pakistan in his peak aside from 3 tests in 98-99 where he was run-out once, out to Saqlain THRICE and Mustaq Ahmed once.  And Akhtar only played one of these tests IIRC

Edited by Dil Dil India

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yes vishy was one of great indian #4 vs pace.His debut 222 FC cricket match up with 137 (2nd innings){ 25 fours} after being dismissed for 0 at kanpur on debut vs aus 

 

his 97 at madras was one of greatest innings by indian player on most difficult wicket vs 4 great bowler one should not forget his square cut -- he was true Gentelman

lead ind in bombay test - eng keeper given out by umpire, vishy call him back-he hits 100 we lost test---

 

BCCI dropped him after his rare failure in pakistan test series.i still remember his innings when we chased 404 in the 4th innings succesfully

 

salute to his 70th birthaday he married with Kavita - SMG' s only sister.

 

 

 

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