Green Track Awaits Team India at Sabina Park

[WC2011INDIA]

Uh Oh. Green pitch and the young WI bowler who was impressive in Under 19...wickets will tumble..and we will make him a hero.  Rahane will struggle big time against him because he is genuinely fast, aggressive and this is green pitch. Unless one of Murali, Pujara and Virat score a big one, this is not going to be pretty at all. 

[Adi_91]

4 minutes ago, WC2011INDIA said:

Uh Oh. Green pitch and the young WI bowler who was impressive in Under 19...wickets will tumble..and we will make him a hero.  Rahane will struggle big time against him because he is genuinely fast, aggressive and this is green pitch. Unless one of Murali, Pujara and Virat score a big one, this is not going to be pretty at all. 

Am also very worried. That guy Joseph gatecrashed into our WC dream. He is back again on a lively pitch. 

[WC2011INDIA]

40 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

Am also very worried. That guy Joseph gatecrashed into our WC dream. He is back again on a lively pitch. 

He was not in T20 WC....

[Adi_91]

2 minutes ago, WC2011INDIA said:

He was not in T20 WC....

He was part of the U19 WI team that defeated India in the final. We were the unbeaten side until the final. 

[WC2011INDIA]

6 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

He was part of the U19 WI team that defeated India in the final. We were the unbeaten side until the final. 

Yup...He is too good. These guys will definitely struggle. This is the type of match that will finish within 3 days. 

[Adi_91]

Just now, WC2011INDIA said:

Yup...He is too good. These guys will definitely struggle. This is the type of match that will finish within 3 days. 

Hopefully in our favor. 

[vishalvirsingh]

i l be happy to see some pace in WI attack as Braithwaite and holder looked as if they were of Prasad's Pace and with less Skills than Prasad.

 

really average bowlers to play for wi..even Sammy was a very slow pacer for WI but he always has some skill to fetch wickets but I felt Braithwaite and holder were always defensive...bowling way outside of off stump.

 

seems they were really happy to make india score at 3 to 3.5 run an over...I found bishoo and Gabriel only attacking the stumps.

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Bounce is also 'pace' really. Infact, the physics to it clearly indicates that the speed of the 'pace' and 'bounce' is the same bloody thing.

 

There is bound to be different terms for different things in sports even if the physics behind them is somewhat similar.

 

Ultimately,   pace of a bowler has to be gauged from a batsman's point of view.    If a ball is pitched up, a batsman gets much less time to play it  as the speed in the air is much more than the speed after pitching.  A shorter bouncing delivery gives the batsman more time because speed after pitching is less than speed in the air and the ball has much more distance to cover even though the displacement is far lesser.

 

The bouncing shorter  balls  may have greater vertical velocity after pitching but they give the batsman more time to play it. The difficulty they pose are partly because of the difficulty in playing vertical velocity but also due to factors like   1)  Fear of getting hit on the face or neck.  2)  It is difficult to bring the bat in front of the face or neck to play a ball quickly.  

 

I feel that the primary reason why bowlers who can generate vertical velocity after pitching are not considered express bowlers nowadays ,  if they have slower release speeds , is because it is pitch dependent. A pacer with high release speeds look quick to the batsman even on low or  slow pitches, especially when they bowl yorkers and almost yorkers.  Whereas a bowler who can bounce the ball, but has a slower release speed , does not hurry the batsman on low and slow pitches. We have seen it so many times in the IPL, where bouncy bowlers have been hit for 6s with ease and treated as medium pacers whereas bowlers who can release the ball at 140 K+ consistently, and bowl yorkers and low full tosses, have hurried the batsmen.

 

With flatter pitches, better protective gears, better bats, fitter batsmen and the 2 bouncer rule...the tall, bouncy bowlers have lost the fear factor and speed in the air has become more important,  in combination with vertical velocity after pitching , to hurry the batsmen.

[Tibarn]

 It's good to see Pujara, Rahane, and Rahul show up for the optional session. Rohit/Dhawan should really go to such things, if they hope to break into/maintain their places in the batting order.   

[Adi_91]

1 minute ago, Tibarn said:

 It's good to see Pujara, Rahane, and Rahul show up for the optional session. Rohit/Dhawan should really go to such things, if they hope to break into/maintain their places in the batting order.   

These two have taken their places for granted in the squad. 

 

On a side note, welcome to ICF! 

[Tibarn]

55 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

These two have taken their places for granted in the squad. 

 

On a side note, welcome to ICF! 

Thanks 

 

Yeah, Dhawan at least has sporadic good scores in random matches and benefits from being our only left-hander, but you would think Rohit would want to prove that he deserves a place in the side, whether at 3 or 6. 

[Vilander]

5 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Lolz... Nobody ever called Walsh fast, not even the West Indians. He was around 128-135. He was around the same pace as Venkatesh Prasad. Perhaps, he might have touched 137-140 on rare occassions. 

Curtley Ambrose at his fastest may have been 145. 

 

Talk of hype!

Yeah but just that Prasad was even slower he bowled 114- 132

 

[Vilander]

4 hours ago, maniac said:

I am not a science guy so I will skip the science part but here is how I look at it.

 

I have admitted that Walsh and Ambrose were lethal due to the bounce they extracted from an Awkward length due to their height,consistency and skill... Md.Irfan from Pak is half a foot taller than Ambrose of all people and a he bowls at a similar pace to Ambrose which is 135ish most times ...and maybe a couple of clicks faster than Walsh.At times his length is pretty unplayable as well and but that is too far in between because most batsman easily negotiate him 90% of the time even though he will beat you once in a while,he is not at the same level obviously.

 

Similarly on a minefield of a pitch or a dustbowl,Kumble becomes the most dangerous bowler and I have seen him break fingers and hurt batsman....Would you call him an express bowler too?

 

I attribute that to skill rather than speed.

 

Simple apples to apples a perfect yorker bowled by Brett Lee or an Akthar is more likely to hurt you than a Malinga one....Physically aside I also mean the reaction time to negate it. It is just that Malinga is consistent with that type of a delivery that he has a higher probability of delivering the perfect yorker.

 

The reaction time to Wasim,Ambrose,Walsh might be relatively less because their skills levels are high and the batsman is on his toes guessing what next...while as someone like Wahab Riaz might bowl the same length over and over again at 10 clicks faster for the batsman eyes to get set.

 

Another example.....I have been to baseball batting cages in the USA where I have easily smacked 80mph baseball pitches after maybe missing the first 1 or 2 once my eyes got set....but if I have a decent club level spinner bowling me a 60mph flighted delivery I might miss it 9/10 times or even hurt my self if I get into an awkward position....that doesn't make 60mph faster than 80mph....now the same spinner bowls a similar delivery at 80mph I will have no shot whatsoever.

 

No one questions the greatness or skills of Walsh or AMbrose but in terms of pace they would no way be called express pace or even Right Arm Fast,they were Right Arm Fast Medium at best and with Walsh towards the end Right Arm Medium Fast or even Right Arm medium

Ambrose is 6'7 - or 6'8" i believe. Irfan is 7'2" in pak height and 6'9 in rest of world height. So keep it in your calculations :)

[Vilander]

5 hours ago, express bowling said:

Show me some evidence of these bowlers bowling at the speeds that you mention.  Every fast-medium bowler can occasionally bowl a couple of deliveries at 145 k. 

 

Bishop and  Patterson  were the really quick Windies bowlers of that era.

 

There were many commentators who did not think that these pacers were 90 mph ones. Some commentators are really biased when they see a tall or big  pacer who hails from a country known for producing fast bowlers.  Even in the last test match,  Manjrekar kept on repeating that Brathwaite and Holder had the body to bowl at 90 mph ( whereas the top bowling coaches say that  speed in the air depends on fast twitch muscles, flexibility of the bowler, ability to transfer the momentum of the run-up into the delivery, wrist action and release , having a proper bowling action etc. and having a strong body definitely does help but  does not guarantee pace. ). In the last test match between England and Pakistan, the commentators were praising the English seamers' pace but they were bowling 80 mph to 87 mph.

 

A lot of myths were busted when speed-guns were regularly used from 1999. The commentators were surprised to see that the innocuous Damien Fleming was bowling quicker than Glenn McGrath.  Merv Dillon of WI, who was thought to be very quick at that time, had difficulty going beyond 141 k. 

 

The bouncer was thought to the " quickest type of delivery " before speed-guns were regularly used.  Next came the yorkers. ( Consequently, the players and commentators thought that the pacers who bowled a lot of good bouncers were much quicker than the bowlers who  did not try that delivery often ).  But it was seen, with regular speed-guns, that the quick looking bouncers registered speeds which were similar to any other delivery by the same bowler. Sometimes, the fastest ball was  a harmless looking low delivery outside the off-stump.

excellent post. But its more romantic (esp to manju) to say that WI boys bowl phasst...and discount Shami who just bowled a 145k swinging delivery just because he is Indian.

[Adi_91]

2 hours ago, Tibarn said:

Thanks 

 

Yeah, Dhawan at least has sporadic good scores in random matches and benefits from being our only left-hander, but you would think Rohit would want to prove that he deserves a place in the side, whether at 3 or 6. 

Rohit has been an enigma for all his fans. Looks good as long as it lasts. And when he gets out, one is always left feeling if it could have been avoided. The lazy stance and hitting style are the main reasons. 

 

One person he can emulate is Sehwag. Very similar player, but far more consistent.

[Ankit_sharma03]

49 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

Rohit has been an enigma for all his fans. Looks good as long as it lasts. And when he gets out, one is always left feeling if it could have been avoided. The lazy stance and hitting style are the main reasons. 

 

One person he can emulate is Sehwag. Very similar player, but far more consistent.

Sehwag had an uncluttered mindset and was very clear about his game whereas rohit at times looks confused as to attack or defense. One more gr8 quality of sehwag was he use to pick the line n movement of the ball real quick which if u see rohit's all dismissal ull see he doesnt pick it. 

[Adi_91]

3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Sehwag had an uncluttered mindset and was very clear about his game whereas rohit at times looks confused as to attack or defense. One more gr8 quality of sehwag was he use to pick the line n movement of the ball real quick which if u see rohit's all dismissal ull see he doesnt pick it. 

It is all confidence, yeah. And honestly, he has been with the Indian team for the last 9 years now and he is still finding his feet in Tests is astonishing.

[Ankit_sharma03]

19 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

It is all confidence, yeah. And honestly, he has been with the Indian team for the last 9 years now and he is still finding his feet in Tests is astonishing.

M not sure about the confidence the thing, the guy failed in Nz,sa after scoring 200 in 2013 n failed in Aus test again after scoring 200+ in 2014, Same failed in Asia cup, t20wc again after having gr8 series down under. I think its hid ability against movement and again reading the ball early, i mean after scoring double ton how much confidence u need. Team has backed him despite so many failure i dnt remember any one getting that many chances so how much confidence one needs. Sehwag scored a 100 in Sa at debut n scored 100+ in eng,aus,wi,sl in his 1st test tour coz he was filled with so much self confidence. 

God can give u all talent but its what u do with it either u enhance it like kohli or u end being like Carl hooper, Kambli

[Adi_91]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

M not sure about the confidence the thing, the guy failed in Nz,sa after scoring 200 in 2013 n failed in Aus test again after scoring 200+ in 2014, Same failed in Asia cup, t20wc again after having gr8 series down under. I think its hid ability against movement and again reading the ball early, i mean after scoring double ton how much confidence u need. Team has backed him despite so many failure i dnt remember any one getting that many chances so how much confidence one needs. Sehwag scored a 100 in Sa at debut n scored 100+ in eng,aus,wi,sl in his 1st test tour coz he was filled with so much self confidence. 

God can give u all talent but its what u do with it either u enhance it like kohli or u end being like Carl hooper, Kambli

Interestingly, his good knocks have come against oppositions in batting friendly conditions if at all. So, it seems the moment the ball begins to do something off the pitch, Rohit is in trouble against the bowlers.

 

Sehwag too had weaknesses, but it is supreme ability to smash the bowler and dent his confidence. I think the most disappointing aspect has been the way he has been found wanting against spinners. He had ample opportunities to do well in the SC with spinners playing a major role, but he failed, which a Sehwag countered much better again.

[Ankit_sharma03]

Just now, Garuda said:

Thanks for the laughs. I think on my old Bush TV, he looked slower than Kumble

All i remember is how they all use to get whacked by jayasuria, anwar, chanderpaul, aravinda de silva. They proved the saying all wrong" the quicker u come the quicker u go" but with them they use to travel even if they bowl slower.