Is Kohli too poor to be captain

[cowboysfan]

A very poor  OP.he has not made it clear how Kohli contributed in losing the game.

[Magneto]

8 hours ago, G_B_ said:

Just seen RCB v Mumbai. RCB yet again snatched defeat from the jaws from victory.

 

Before anybody says, I dont want to create yet another troll thread. I want a serious discussion about him as Indian captain.

 

No doubt people will oh its just the IPL. But thats a moot point. Kohli was trying to win and he just let the momentum go when Mumbai were some 8/4. His nervous body language seeps into the team.

 

There is no doubt that Kohli is probably one of the greatest T20 players who is passionate about India and likes to lead from the front. Will be the first name on the team. But there needs to be a serious discussion about his temperament in being captain.  Sachin was a great batter but just like Kohli is mannerisms and naivity led to tactical mistakes and nervousness. I dont want to go back to the Sachin era.

 

Say what you may. Under MSD we never let winning positions slip in LOI. Can you imagine captain Kohli pulling off a win in the Champions Trophy 2013? England would have romped home.

 

 

Dhoni has lost plenty of ODIs from good positions. IPL matches too. He’s been lucky a few times; like WT20 final, those were pure luck, no great acumen. He has lost 5 WT20 tournaments and 6 IPLs too. 

 

Too early to judge Kohli and compare him with Dhoni. 

 

Absurd OTT thread.

 

 

[HippoSucks]

2 hours ago, Number said:

Barring 2013 CT we have been bang average in ODIs for some time now.

Unable to win a single match in SA, NZ or Aus (against Aus).

Lost a series in BD, lost against SA at home.

NZ came close to beating us at home.

Now who takes blame for that ?

 

In the last 3 years, India has only played in Bangladesh, England (where they won 3-1), Australia (where they lost 4-1, but still won a match) and Zimbabwe.

[gattaca]

3 hours ago, Pollack said:

I don't know why this non sense of Ganguly not winning ICC trophy is brought about in comparison to dhoni.

Ganguly played 3 champions trophy.Reached final in one.One we were joint winner but had match been continued we would have won it easily.One was bad. One world cup final as a captain.

Dhoni played 2 champions trophy won 1. Played one world cup as a captain and won one. Played 6 t20 world cups as a captain and won 1!!!!

 

 

Overall ICC trophy record:

Ganguly: 1/4 with two finals

Dhoni:    2/9

 

Removing t20 world cup( but why? Is it not ICC trophy?):

Dhoni: 2/3

 

Are these figures really that extra ordinary. Not to forget the kind of match winner down the order that dhoni got who are very crucial in limited overseas format.

CB series first ever win for against Australia. 

Couple of tournaments in windies

We probably won every tournament against srilanka at home or touring them.

 

[New guy]

OP passing judgement after an IPL game. Same people kept quiet after we were getting whitewashed in international series under Dhoni. Its actually hilarious. And of course the blatant lies that we haven't lost similar low scoring matches under Dhoni 

[New guy]

4 hours ago, Magneto said:

Dhoni has lost plenty of ODIs from good positions. IPL matches too. He’s been lucky a few times; like WT20 final, those were pure luck, no great acumen. He has lost 5 WT20 tournaments and 6 IPLs too. 

 

Too early to judge Kohli and compare him with Dhoni. 

 

Absurd OTT thread.

 

 

Yel, when OP has to.lie to start this thread, you know whats up

[BeautifulGame]

6 hours ago, Pollack said:

I don't know why this non sense of Ganguly not winning ICC trophy is brought about in comparison to dhoni.

Ganguly played 3 champions trophy.Reached final in one.One we were joint winner but had match been continued we would have won it easily.One was bad. One world cup final as a captain.

Dhoni played 2 champions trophy won 1. Played one world cup as a captain and won one. Played 6 t20 world cups as a captain and won 1!!!!

 

 

Overall ICC trophy record:

Ganguly: 1/4 with two finals

Dhoni:    2/9

 

Removing t20 world cup( but why? Is it not ICC trophy?):

Dhoni: 2/3

 

Are these figures really that extra ordinary. Not to forget the kind of match winner down the order that dhoni got who are very crucial in limited overseas format.

 

Considering our record in finals under Ganguly very much doubt it.

 

We were bottlers under Ganguly.Lost every final apart from the NatWest trophy.

 

His record was like lost 13 out 14 finals under.We had excellent record under Azhar in finals and we were exceptional in the deciders under Dhoni .The only difference was under Ganguly.

 

Heck even in test cricket His batting was like a glorified tail ender as Captain in India.He averaged something like 26 as captain in India.Ashwin and Jadeja probably have better numbers.

Edited April 15, 2017 by BeautifulGame

[Pollack]

1 hour ago, BeautifulGame said:

 

Considering our record in finals under Ganguly very much doubt it.

 

We were bottlers under Ganguly.Lost every final apart from the NatWest trophy.

 

His record was like lost 13 out 14 finals under.We had excellent record under Azhar in finals and we were exceptional in the deciders under Dhoni .The only difference was under Ganguly.

 

Heck even in test cricket His batting was like a glorified tail ender as Captain in India.He averaged something like 26 as captain in India.Ashwin and Jadeja probably have better numbers.

If he was the one who was reason for bottling in the finals then he is also the one who brought about change in attitude with that NatWest final. After that India was completely a different team with more self belief. Also the reason why he failed in finals were the players.Some of them individually skilled but not as a team. Dhoni got Raina, Yuvraj, Gambhir,Sehwag etc.These players made dhoni's task much easier. Also one must not forget Ganguly was responsible for bringing few of those into the team.Harbhajan,Sehwag,Yuvraj, Zaheer khan and dhoni himself all made into team under Ganguly. Ganguly started building a fate turning team and dhoni reaped benefits afterwards. 

[BCCI]

34 minutes ago, Pollack said:

If he was the one who was reason for bottling in the finals then he is also the one who brought about change in attitude with that NatWest final. After that India was completely a different team with more self belief. Also the reason why he failed in finals were the players.Some of them individually skilled but not as a team. Dhoni got Raina, Yuvraj, Gambhir,Sehwag etc.These players made dhoni's task much easier. Also one must not forget Ganguly was responsible for bringing few of those into the team.Harbhajan,Sehwag,Yuvraj, Zaheer khan and dhoni himself all made into team under Ganguly. Ganguly started building a fate turning team and dhoni reaped benefits afterwards. 

 

Then I guess Kohli is also reaping the benefits of a side build by Dhoni .

 

 

[Pollack]

29 minutes ago, BCCI said:

 

Then I guess Kohli is also reaping the benefits of a side build by Dhoni .

 

 

Absolutely no if you are talking about tests. Dhoni left it in worst condition. In ODI's to a certain extent only.Kohli's has just started captaining and if he builds a team in near future with younger players like kuldeep,chahal, and some of the many hyped pace bowlers and starts winning a lot then it cannot be said so.

[gattaca]

3 minutes ago, Pollack said:

Absolutely no if you are talking about tests. Dhoni left it in worst condition. In ODI's to a certain extent only.Kohli's has just started captaining and if he builds a team in near future with younger players like kuldeep,chahal, and some of the many hyped pace bowlers and starts winning a lot then it cannot be said so.

Lol we have Ashwin and jaddu top ranked bowlers , shami as well. There are really good. Dhoni also backed pujara. 

[BCCI]

13 minutes ago, Pollack said:

Absolutely no if you are talking about tests. Dhoni left it in worst condition. In ODI's to a certain extent only.Kohli's has just started captaining and if he builds a team in near future with younger players like kuldeep,chahal, and some of the many hyped pace bowlers and starts winning a lot then it cannot be said so.

But his success is based on Pujara, himself, Ash, Jaddu, Rahane etc all players backed by MS in his tenure. You have shifted the goalpost now from players to condition of the test side. If we stay on the original argument of reaping benefits of players backed by the previous captain(however flawed the argument is) then you have to say Kohli is reaping benefits of all these players and will continue to do so in future.

[Pollack]

1 minute ago, gattaca said:

Lol we have Ashwin and jaddu top ranked bowlers , shami as well. There are really good. Dhoni also backed pujara. 

Lol .Why were we losing with them when he was captaining? LOL.

[Pollack]

8 minutes ago, BCCI said:

But his success is based on Pujara, himself, Ash, Jaddu, Rahane etc all players backed by MS in his tenure. You have shifted the goalpost now from players to condition of the test side. If we stay on the original argument of reaping benefits of players backed by the previous captain(however flawed the argument is) then you have to say Kohli is reaping benefits of all these players and will continue to do so in future.

I don't think Dhoni backed anyone except Jaddu. Backing is different than just making debut into the team.Pujara and Rahane started making impact within short duration. They need not be backed at all. Infact Rahane was just sitting on bench a long time before he finally made it into the team.The others made into the team due to natural process and dhoni was captain.Rahane and Pujara get into the team because there was vacancy and they were top class players in domestics. 

Having said all this its not just about selecting players only. The kind of captaincy dhoni employed in tests was completely out of sync with format. So you cannot say Kohli is reaping any benefits from dhoni in Tests.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Pollack

[BCCI]

13 minutes ago, Pollack said:

I don't think Dhoni backed anyone except Jaddu. Backing is different than just making debut into the team.Pujara and Rahane started making impact within short duration. They need not be backed at all. Infact Rahane was just sitting on bench a long time before he finally made it into the team.The others made into the team due to natural process and dhoni was captain.Rahane and Pujara get into the team because there was vacancy and they were top class players in domestics. 

Having said all this its not just about selecting players only. The kind of captaincy dhoni employed in tests was completely out of sync with format. So you cannot say Kohli is reaping any benefits from dhoni.

Really? The current captain is the prime example of Dhoni's backing. He was on the cusp of getting dropped post failure at Sydney but Dhoni played him at Perth and rest is history.

You have different yardstick for Ganguly and Dhoni it seems ,in case of Ganguly he was the messiah who backed the fate turning side but under Dhoni it was due to natural process.Regarding reaping the benefits part it seems you are confused or are you trying to imply its got nothing to do with players,its just Virat the captain who is winning us games

Dhoni was a horrific test captain overseas but before passing extreme judgement lets wait to see what we do overseas against a half decent side.

[Pollack]

1 minute ago, BCCI said:

Really? The current captain is the prime example of Dhoni's backing. He was on the cusp of getting dropped post failure at Sydney but Dhoni played him at Perth and rest is history.

You have different yardstick for Ganguly and Dhoni it seems ,in case of Ganguly he was the messiah who backed the fate turning side but under Dhoni it was due to natural process.Regarding reaping the benefits part it seems you are confused or are you trying to imply its got nothing to do with players,its just Virat the captain who is winning us games

Dhoni was a horrific test captain overseas but before passing extreme judgement lets wait to see what we do overseas against a half decent side.

No double standards. Those who followed cricket during that time know exactly what I am saying. 

I have always believed captaincy is not very quantifiable parameter. But for the sake of discussion we have to quantify and compare anyway. Its about team only then dhoni shouldn't get credit for winning World cup  

[BCCI]

14 minutes ago, Pollack said:

No double standards. Those who followed cricket during that time know exactly what I am saying. 

I have always believed captaincy is not very quantifiable parameter. But for the sake of discussion we have to quantify and compare anyway. Its about team only then dhoni shouldn't get credit for winning World cup  

Lol way to be condescending,others have also followed cricket during those times, who do not over rate Ganguly and who do not have blinkers on when comparing their contributions as captain.

 

Yep its the team game,who told you Dhoni won the world cup single handedly.

[Pollack]

Just now, BCCI said:

Lol way to be condescending,others have also followed cricket during those times, who do not over rate Ganguly and who do not have blinkers on when comparing their contributions as captain.

 

Yep its the team game,who told you Dhoni won the world cup single handedly.

I wasn't condescending. Unfortunate you felt it that way.The importance of selection of players like harby, Yuvraj, kaif, dhoni at that time cannot be more emphasised. Those who followed this minutely those days understand this.I do not want to say I am the only one who followed. I just wanted to clear its not double standards but context of two different era.

[BCCI]

14 minutes ago, Pollack said:

I wasn't condescending. Unfortunate you felt it that way.The importance of selection of players like harby, Yuvraj, kaif, dhoni at that time cannot be more emphasised. Those who followed this minutely those days understand this.I do not want to say I am the only one who followed. I just wanted to clear its not double standards but context of two different era.

I will agree to disagree here because this backing part always seems flawed to me. Every captain tries new players and backs them ,few become the top player they envision while championing their cause.

[Sidhoni]

1 hour ago, Pollack said:

Lol .Why were we losing with them when he was captaining? LOL.

Harbhajan,Sehwag,Yuvraj, Zaheer khan and dhoni himself all made into team under Ganguly. Ganguly started building a fate turning team and dhoni reaped benefits afterwards.

 

Lol. Why were we losing with them when he was captaining? LOL.