Lack of wicket taking bowlers.

[sandeep]

Just now, express bowling said:

No....Bhuvi replaced Umesh in Gros Islet and Port of Spain in the West Indies.

 

Umesh did not play the Kolkata test either... it was Shami and Bhuvi there

So basically your sample set penalizes Bhuvi by excluding his best performances, since Yadav couldn't make it into the team.  

 

The only valid point I can accept is Dharamsala - and you can't really claim that Bhuvi bowled badly there.   And you, of all posters here, should know that wickets don't always tell the full story when it comes to how well someone bowled in a test match.  It often happens that a bowler picks up wickets as a benefit of some tight bowling at the other end.   

 

Happily, when we go on our next set of overseas tours, we don't have to worry about this Bhuvi  vs Yadav argument - we can play a 3 prong of Shami, Bhuvi and Yadav - the Eng and SA tours should really separate doodh ka doodh and paani ka paani.

[express bowling]

10 minutes ago, New guy said:

Umesh has got a continuous run throughout the year now while Bhuvi has been in and out. Yadav supporters made a big deal about this when Yadav was not doing well. Yadav got continous support and has done well. If Bhuvi gets the same he will outshine any bowler in the world. 

Bhuvi is improving his skills and pace/ bounce at an impressive rate. So, it is possible that one day, in the near future, he will be a very good test bowler.  

 

As of today....we have better test pacers than Bhuvi on flat tracks and bouncy tracks.

[express bowling]

49 minutes ago, sandeep said:

So basically your sample set penalizes Bhuvi by excluding his best performances, since Yadav couldn't make it into the team.  

 

The only valid point I can accept is Dharamsala - and you can't really claim that Bhuvi bowled badly there.   And you, of all posters here, should know that wickets don't always tell the full story when it comes to how well someone bowled in a test match.  It often happens that a bowler picks up wickets as a benefit of some tight bowling at the other end.   

 

Happily, when we go on our next set of overseas tours, we don't have to worry about this Bhuvi  vs Yadav argument - we can play a 3 prong of Shami, Bhuvi and Yadav - the Eng and SA tours should really separate doodh ka doodh and paani ka paani.

That is the thing....I am not trying to penalize Bhuvi or any other pacer. I love the art of pace bowling too much to have preferences regarding individuals. Which is why I am really enjoying and supporting Bhuvi's bowling in this CT and want him to play ahead of Umesh.

 

I always look for pacers who combine sufficient pace / bounce with good skills and wicket taking ability. Whoever ticks the boxes are my favourites and they change with time.

 

Bhuvi bowled well in Dharamsala but Umesh bowled much better. 

 

In the test match against Bangladesh....Umesh was getting much more reverse swing both ways and got the ball to reverse much earlier than Bhuvi.

 

I am not basing it just on wickets.

 

In the last 12 months, Umesh played 2 tests on helpful tracks and bowled well. Picked up 10 wickets. Bhuvi played 3 tests in helpful conditions and bowled well. Picked up 13 wickets.....shows that both are good bowlers in helpful conditions.

 

I just want the most effective pacers for the conditions to play.

 

P.s - I don't think Shami, Umesh and Bhuvi ....all medium height right arm pacers, will play that many tests together unless in sublime form. Some other different type pacer will replace one of them.

Edited June 13, 2017 by express bowling

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

P.s - I don't think Shami, Umesh and Bhuvi ....all medium height raght arm pacers, will play that many years together unless in sublime form. Some other different type pacer will replace one of them.

True, but you don't expect that to happen in the next 20 month cycle, barring injury?  I want to see a fully fit trio of Shami, Bhuvi and Yadav in England for a test series - I'm confident we have a great chance to win if that happens.  

[express bowling]

27 minutes ago, sandeep said:

True, but you don't expect that to happen in the next 20 month cycle, barring injury?  I want to see a fully fit trio of Shami, Bhuvi and Yadav in England for a test series - I'm confident we have a great chance to win if that happens.  

Ishant may sneak in some venues in SA and Australia. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by express bowling

[Ultimate_Game]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

Ishant may sneak in some venues in SA and Australia. 

Ishant is useless. In Aus and SA where the pitches have bounce, you need bowlers who pitch it up more. Ishant's 'short of length' deliveries beating edge look good but don't get him wkts. I would rather go with a youngster than hope for Ishant to turn it around.

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Ishant is useless. In Aus and SA where the pitches have bounce, you need bowlers who pitch it up more. Ishant's 'short of length' deliveries beating edge look good but don't get him wkts. I would rather go with a youngster than hope for Ishant to turn it around.

I am NOT saying that I want  Ishant in the team.  

 

I am saying that is what will happen.

[Ultimate_Game]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

I am NOT saying that I want  Ishant in the team.  

 

I am saying that is what will happen.

I doubt unless Sehwag becomes the coach  

 

I think Kohli has seen Ishant's performances, or lack thereof, first hand for a long time and won't back more of the same. Umesh and Shami pick themselves. Bhuvi might be the third pacer though I would prefer he plays where there's some help - seam or swing. Need to find 2 more pacers. Maybe Nathu Singh and Sangwan.

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

I doubt unless Sehwag becomes the coach  

 

I think Kohli has seen Ishant's performances, or lack thereof, first hand for a long time and won't back more of the same. Umesh and Shami pick themselves. Bhuvi might be the third pacer though I would prefer he plays where there's some help - seam or swing. Need to find 2 more pacers. Maybe Nathu Singh and Sangwan.

For test matches, Aniket Chaudhari,  Md.Siraj and  Navdeep Saini  maybe front-runners.

 

Nathu Singh is a very good ODI and T20 prospect as of today but needs to prove his fitness for test matches.

[Tibarn]

Test attack should be Shami, Umesh, and either Ishant or replace Ishant with Thakur/Bumrah.

[Ultimate_Game]

40 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

Test attack should be Shami, Umesh, and either Ishant or replace Ishant with Thakur/Bumrah.

Not Bumrah else we will kill him making him play all the formats. Bumrah should be saved only for shorter formats and Umesh only for Tests. Then we can figure out other bowlers to support them.

[express bowling]

10 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Not Bumrah else we will kill him making him play all the formats. Bumrah should be saved only for shorter formats and Umesh only for Tests. Then we can figure out other bowlers to support them.

Bumrah should be tried in tests.

 

If Bhuvi and Umesh can play all formats then why not him ?

[Ultimate_Game]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

Bumrah should be tried in tests.

 

If Bhuvi and Umesh can play all formats then why not him ?

I'm more for having a pool of bowlers and having one bowler as the pillar for a particular format - Umesh for Tests and Bumrah for shorter formats else the workload will simply kill them or shorten their career. Also, Bumrah's USP is his change of pace and killer yorkers which are not such a threat in Tests.

[express bowling]

33 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

I'm more for having a pool of bowlers and having one bowler as the pillar for a particular format - Umesh for Tests and Bumrah for shorter formats else the workload will simply kill them or shorten their career. Also, Bumrah's USP is his change of pace and killer yorkers which are not such a threat in Tests.

It is unfair to the player if he is rejected for a format without even trying him there.

 

Also, Bumrah has most skills needed to be a good test bowler.

Edited June 13, 2017 by express bowling

[Ultimate_Game]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

It is unfair to the player of he is rejected for a format without even trying him there.

 

Also, Bumrah has most skills needed to be a good test bowler.

 

That's fair enough. Maybe selectors and BCCI should talk to Bumrah, Yadav and others, and explain their plans. If a player still wants to play all the formats, they should be tried and then it's all up to performance.

 

But if a bowler, or a cricketer in general, plays across all formats then BCCI needs to have some sort of rotational policy in place else you will simply burn out your star players. I'm already worried about Kohli as he plays without a break across all formats and it will only get worse. Need to have a pool of players with rotational policy in place the way MLB teams manage pitchers, i.e. no pitcher pitches on less than 4 days rest and generally don't go beyond 80-100 pitches a game.

[express bowling]

15 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

That's fair enough. Maybe selectors and BCCI should talk to Bumrah, Yadav and others, and explain their plans. If a player still wants to play all the formats, they should be tried and then it's all up to performance.

 

But if a bowler, or a cricketer in general, plays across all formats then BCCI needs to have some sort of rotational policy in place else you will simply burn out your star players. I'm already worried about Kohli as he plays without a break across all formats and it will only get worse. Need to have a pool of players with rotational policy in place the way MLB teams manage pitchers, i.e. no pitcher pitches on less than 4 days rest and generally don't go beyond 80-100 pitches a game.

Bumrah has expressed a deep desire to play test matches and has toiled hard in the last Ranji season.

 

I agree that rotation policy is a must. Even if a player plays all formats, he should not play all the games or every series.

Edited June 14, 2017 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, Tibarn said:

Test attack should be Shami, Umesh, and either Ishant or replace Ishant with Thakur/Bumrah.

Test attack shud be- Shami , umesh, bhuvi , Ishant(keep him on the edge) 

New additions- aniket n thakur

For future- nathu n avesh ( get these guys ready asap, avesh can be one of the match winning bowlers we need in any condition. Take him on A-tour)

Few other- Navdeep Saini, rajpoot, Aaron( keep him on radar and talk to him to concentrate one one format)

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, express bowling said:

Bumrah has expressed a deep desire to play test matches and has toiled hard in the last Ranji season.

 

I agree that rotational policy is a must. Even if a player plays all formats, he should not play all the games or every series.

IMO BCCI needs to work on its rotational policy ASAP else it will burn out our biggest assets like Kohlis, Bumrahs, Ashwins etc. who play across all formats. For starters I would like them to implement the following process...

 

1. Identify a pool of players across formats, i.e. pool of players for Tests, Odis and T20s.

2. Grade each tourney or series, i.e. ICC tourneys and away Test series to Aus, Eng & SA could be Tier 1 series where full strength team needs to play. Asia Cup and away series to other teams and home series to be Tier 2 where some of the top players can be rested. Shorter format bilateral series and Tests against WI, Zim and B'desh to be Tier 3 where majority of regulars to be rested.

3. Come up with guidelines such as fast bowlers can only play 6 Tests, 10 odis and 10 T20s every year, or bowl only 400 overs per year etc. Have similar guidelines for spinners, batsmen and all-rounders.

4. Identify vice captain for each format along with third in command who take over when Kohli is rested.

5. Work with players and selectors to come up with a playing schedule to manage workload.

 

Days of selecting your top players for every match are long gone and if you want to ensure your best players have a long shelf life you need to have some sort of plan in place.

[Tibarn]

10 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Not Bumrah else we will kill him making him play all the formats. Bumrah should be saved only for shorter formats and Umesh only for Tests. Then we can figure out other bowlers to support them.

I disagree on both counts here. Bumrah has shown excellent 1st class stats so far, and he doesn't have an injury history that we need to worry about his workload right now. I think Thakur deserves a chance before Bumrah, as he has been in the test squad already, but Bumrah definitely deserves a call-up to the test side. Our only injury prone bowler is Shami, so if we need to preserve any single bowler it would be him. If you said we should restrict Shami to LOIs to extend his career, I could maybe agree with that, but Bumrah deserves at least a series before we discard him as a LOI bowler only.  

 

I disagree with the Umesh part as well. This may be the contrarian position on ICF, but I am perfectly happy backing Kohli and Kumble 100% in their plans to play him in both ODI and T20s. Umesh is a quality bowler across formats, and the numbers bear that out. The only problem is that he and Shami lack bowling chemistry in LOIs, in that they have the same main weakness in limited overs, death bowling, so its hard to play them both at the same time, and Shami has the makings of an ATG in ODIs, so it's hard to play Umesh over him in the 50 over format. 

 

10 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Test attack shud be- Shami , umesh, bhuvi , Ishant(keep him on the edge) 

New additions- aniket n thakur

For future- nathu n avesh ( get these guys ready asap, avesh can be one of the match winning bowlers we need in any condition. Take him on A-tour)

Few other- Navdeep Saini, rajpoot, Aaron( keep him on radar and talk to him to concentrate one one format)

I have to disagree with the bolded part. Ishant makes an ideal teammate for Shami and Umesh IMO. Shami and Umesh both tend to have skiddy deliveries and reverse swing, but Ishant has the necessary extra bounce to add diversity to our Test attack. The three of them bowling together at 140+ is our best attack IMO.

 

I would say if any player should be on the edge of the Test team it is Kumar. I think it is unwise to carry a green track specialist in our test side, when we could give the 4th spot to a bowler with much greater upside in wicket-taking ability ie Thakur, Nathu, Siraj and the others you mentioned, or a left-armer with upside, to further diversify the attack. 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

 

I have to disagree with the bolded part. Ishant makes an ideal teammate for Shami and Umesh IMO. Shami and Umesh both tend to have skiddy deliveries and reverse swing, but Ishant has the necessary extra bounce to add diversity to our Test attack. The three of them bowling together at 140+ is our best attack IMO.

 

I would say if any player should be on the edge of the Test team it is Kumar. I think it is unwise to carry a green track specialist in our test side, when we could give the 4th spot to a bowler with much greater upside in wicket-taking ability ie Thakur, Nathu, Siraj and the others you mentioned, or a left-armer with upside, to further diversify the attack. 

 

 

 

Ishant quality is needed but his perfomances after 70 games is also below par, u cant keep playing on the expectation whole life. That extra bounce giving bowler is where we need to get in Avesh and keep trying saini n rajpoot on A-tours as well 

Kumar shud be horses for courses type of bowler in test