Why hasn't Bengal produced many quality international cricketers?

[Shunya]

31 minutes ago, maniac said:

You think that is a problem only with Andhra?

 

You said there was 0 sporting culture in Andhra-I showed you the world class young badminton talent Gopichand academy is producing.

 

Then you skirted around saying that it is now in Telangana- 

 

I pointed out   that when it was established it did have Andhra govt support but regardless  and kids have been training there and we have an elite core of badminton players coming up.

 

Now tell me did I miss i something? Why is this helicopter parenting and IIT coaching only subjective to Andhra,it’s a problem all over India.

 

Yes, from a cricket perspective Andhra has never been a powerhouse....Hyderabad sure used to be but even that is screwed because of politics and not because of the stereotype you said.

 

We all ore guilty of saying stupid racial and socially inappropriate dumb stuff all the time...just admit and move on.

Hyderabard also produced "Tendulkar of Women's Cricket" - Mithali Raj. That is one of the biggest achievement in Cricket.

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, Gollum said:

In my all time Indian test XI I will have Saha as the keeper. In my all time Indian women's team (any format) Jhulan Goswami will be my 1st name. Dada will be in the reckoning in all time ODI XI although I doubt he will get in the 1st XI. Anyway I am quite satisfied with the achievements of Bengal cricket considering the relative lack of interest for the game there. I won't be surprised if Shami becomes an Indian ATG and no he is a product of Bengal now, he moved there as a 19 year old and learnt the trick of the trade there, he owes everything to Mohun Bagan and CAB. 

 

And w.r.t Andhra even forgetting the flawed arguments like Telengana split or Hyderabad breakaway......Andhra is our badminton capital. Gopichand is from the Andhra region and he is the guru of Indian badminton. Without him there would be no Saina, Sindhu, Srikanth, Kashyap, Prannoy, Sai Praneeth.....even allowing the flawed arguments about Telengana-Hyderabad or Saina's place of birth majority of these stars are from modern day Andhra and that's all that matters. If we have an Irani cup style match up between Andhra and rest of India in badminton, I will place my bets on Andhra. We are a badminton superpower because of Andhra, we are where we are because of Gopichand, never forget the contribution of this great man. 

Great post as always. Since all time Ind Text XI would have a strong top 5 (or 6), I would say that the choice is between Kirmani and Saha. Haven't seen enough of the former to make a call, but in terms of batting, both can fit in easily at 7 or 8.

 

I would have Mithali ahead of Jhulan in any format (but very slightly), and she is also from Telangana.

 

The old AP produced several chess players too. Humpy was ranked No.2 (or 3) in the world at some point, and Harikrishna made it to the top 10 briefly as well.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Vijy

[Gollum]

11 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Great post as always. Since all time Ind Text XI would have a strong top 5 (or 6), I would say that the choice is between Kirmani and Saha. Haven't seen enough of the former to make a call, but in terms of batting, both can fit in easily at 7 or 8.

 

I would have Mithali ahead of Jhulan in any format (but very slightly), and she is also from Telangana.

 

The old AP produced several chess players too. Humpy was ranked No.2 (or 3) in the world at some point, and Harikrishna made it to the top 10 briefly as well.

Humpy has stopped playing after marriage I guess, haven't seen her in any tournament for over 2 years now. Harikrishna is our 2nd strongest player of all time but he has stagnated and isn't destined to reach greater heights IMO. Watch out for Harika Dronavalli, she isn't as good as Koneru but a WWC material, reached the semis of the last 2 WC'ship. She is more clutch than Humpy but luckily for her, Hou Yifan no longer plays these knockouts and is seriously considering going the Judit Polgar way i.e. stop competing in women's only events. A big chance for the lesser mortals and I would say Harika is among the 10 players who will always be in contention at least for the next 6-7 years. Come to think of it Andhra has cemented itself as our 2nd strongest chess state, a decade or so back I would have placed Bengal and Maharashtra over it. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Gollum

[Vijy]

4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Humpy has stopped playing after marriage I guess, haven't seen her in any tournament for over 2 years now. Harikrishna is our 2nd strongest player of all time but he has stagnated and isn't destined to reach greater heights IMO. Watch out for Harika Dronavalli, she isn't as good as Koneru but a WWC material, reached the semis of the last 2 WC'ship. She is more clutch than Humpy but luckily for her, Hou Yifan no longer plays these knockouts and is seriously considering going the Judit Polgar way i.e. stop competing in women's only events. A big chance for the lesser mortals and I would say Harika is among the 10 players who will always be in contention at least for the next 6-7 years. Come to think of it Andhra has cemented itself as our 2nd strongest chess state, a decade or so back I would have placed Bengal and Maharashtra over it. 

Yes, 'tis true. I'd rather hoped Humpy would grab the top spot when Polgar "left", but she didn't live up to her old promise and then quit later. as you noted, harikrishna has also stagnated. I think chess is not as promising as it once was - seems to have transferred over to badminton now. But, I guess we'll never see hockey thrive in our lifetime... a real pity, because when on song, I enjoy it more than cricket.

 

[Cricketics]

 

 

Being the Tennis Nerd I am, I would like to share my two cents.

 

Its funny that many people shared their views  and few other posters above compared all sports and showed speciality of each state but forget to mention Tennis.

 

About Tennis, no one mentioned that the king of Tennis from India will always be a Bengali - LEANDER PAES. One of the sportsman I looked up to all my life and what he is doing today as I type is incredible. At 45 years of age, he is playing challenger events to pick his ranking up so he can get into ATP 1000 events withou needing wildcard.

 

He is still playing top mens double tennis and this is an individual sport and he is not blocking anyone anywhere and yet one thing he does is makes India proud whenever he wins any tournament. In the past two weeks, he has won two challenger events with two different noob partners who haven’t done shyt in their tennis careers so far. 

 

And and and

 

Today Tennis talent has spreadd out all across India. There is no one state.

 

Here I am breaking down top Tennis Indian talents currently playing at world stage by each state which we should be excited about as Indians. 

 

You have top India juniors men player from Pune, Maharashtra named - Arjun Kadhe.

 

Top Mens player from India from Delhi and Chennai - Yuki Bhambri, Sumit Nagal and Ramkumar Ramanathan

 

Best Doubles player from Mumbai, Bangalore, Bengal and Delhi - Purav Raja, Rohan Bopanna, Leander Paes and Divij Sharan.

 

 

 

Best Young Women Tennis player comes from Punjab - Karman Kaur Thandi

 

Indians best Singles player ever and recent world number 1 doubles women player is from Hyderabad - Sania Mirza

 

Young women tennis rising stars - Ankita Raina and Mahak Jain come from Gujarat and Bhopal.

 

 

We have talent all across and I can bet you that one few of these upcoming men and women mentioned above in singles wil get us big name and glory down the line. 

 

 

Remember some of these names.

 

Ramkumar and Bhambri are already big hit in ATP circuit.

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Yes, 'tis true. I'd rather hoped Humpy would grab the top spot when Polgar "left", but she didn't live up to her old promise and then quit later. as you noted, harikrishna has also stagnated. I think chess is not as promising as it once was - seems to have transferred over to badminton now. But, I guess we'll never see hockey thrive in our lifetime... a real pity, because when on song, I enjoy it more than cricket.

 

I am more optimistic about our hockey. For the 1st time in my life I see an Indian hockey team worth supporting, Hockey India under Elina Norman is being professionally run and our young talent is promising. Our women's hockey team too has improved a lot, clearly the administrators are doing something right.

[Vijy]

16 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I am more optimistic about our hockey. For the 1st time in my life I see an Indian hockey team worth supporting, Hockey India under Elina Norman is being professionally run and our young talent is promising. Our women's hockey team too has improved a lot, clearly the administrators are doing something right.

I'm glad you feel so. I am too skeptical - will wait and see if it turns out to be another flash in the pan. this tendency of showing promise and then underpeforming has been repeated many times in our history.

[Gollum]

@Cricketics Just one small suggestion, we shouldn't hype our doubles players too much. We as a sporting society are basically encouraging mediocrity by hyping up doubles, focus should always be singles and only if you aren't good enough or have some injury should you shift to doubles. Because of constant pampering young Indian tennis stars may be tempted to take the easy way out via doubles because it's easier and being an Indian expect national media to fall head over heels if you have a few successes here and there. 

 

Another thing, as great as Paes is the 2 kings of tennis will always be Ramanthan Krishnan and Vijay Amritraj. Heck even in Bengal Jaidep Mukherjee and Premjit Lal are no less because they were better in singles. Ramesh Krishnan is better than Paes because he reached QF in 3 majors and beat 5x the number of ATGs Paes beat in singles.

 

Vijay and Ramanathan are next level. Under Vijay we should have won 1974 Davis cup if not for apartheid. Vijay had multiple victories against Connors, McEnroe, Laver, Rosewall, Stan Smith etc, in fact he was known as the Aussie killer because he would regularly beat the Aussie when they were at their peak. I can go on and on about his achievements but this is not the thread for it, simply put he was way better than any version of Paes. Similarly Ramanatahan was almost as good as Amritraj, only a decade and a half earlier, consistent top 10. I will put Amritraj as our greatest because he did all this whilst suffering from asthma. 

[Vijy]

21 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

 

 

Being the Tennis Nerd I am, I would like to share my two cents.

 

Its funny that many people shared their views  and few other posters above compared all sports and showed speciality of each state but forget to mention Tennis.

 

About Tennis, no one mentioned that the king of Tennis from India will always be a Bengali - LEANDER PAES. One of the sportsman I looked up to all my life and what he is doing today as I type is incredible. At 45 years of age, he is playing challenger events to pick his ranking up so he can get into ATP 1000 events withou needing wildcard.

 

He is still playing top mens double tennis and this is an individual sport and he is not blocking anyone anywhere and yet one thing he does is makes India proud whenever he wins any tournament. In the past two weeks, he has won two challenger events with two different noob partners who haven’t done shyt in their tennis careers so far. 

 

And and and

 

Today Tennis talent has spreadd out all across India. There is no one state.

 

Here I am breaking down top Tennis Indian talents currently playing at world stage by each state which we should be excited about as Indians. 

 

You have top India juniors men player from Pune, Maharashtra named - Arjun Kadhe.

 

Top Mens player from India from Delhi and Chennai - Yuki Bhambri, Sumit Nagal and Ramkumar Ramanathan

 

Best Doubles player from Mumbai, Bangalore, Bengal and Delhi - Purav Raja, Rohan Bopanna, Leander Paes and Divij Sharan.

 

 

 

Best Young Women Tennis player comes from Punjab - Karman Kaur Thandi

 

Indians best Singles player ever and recent world number 1 doubles women player is from Hyderabad - Sania Mirza

 

Young women tennis rising stars - Ankita Raina and Mahak Jain come from Gujarat and Bhopal.

 

 

We have talent all across and I can bet you that one few of these upcoming men and women mentioned above in singles wil get us big name and glory down the line. 

 

 

Remember some of these names.

 

Ramkumar and Bhambri are already big hit in ATP circuit.

Glad you mentioned Paes. Of the ones you mentioned, apart from Sania and Bopanna, most are unproven at the highest level (i.e. winning or making SF/F of grand slams). It remains to be seen if any of them will leave a mark.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

@Cricketics Just one small suggestion, we shouldn't hype our doubles players too much. We as a sporting society are basically encouraging mediocrity by hyping up doubles, focus should always be singles and only if you aren't good enough or have some injury should you shift to doubles. Because of constant pampering young Indian tennis stars may be tempted to take the easy way out via doubles because it's easier and being an Indian expect national media to fall head over heels if you have a few successes here and there. 

 

Another thing, as great as Paes is the 2 kings of tennis will always be Ramanthan Krishnan and Vijay Amritraj. Heck even in Bengal Jaidep Mukherjee and Premjit Lal are no less because they were better in singles. Ramesh Krishnan is better than Paes because he reached QF in 3 majors and beat 5x the number of ATGs Paes beat in singles.

 

Vijay and Ramanathan are next level. Under Vijay we should have won 1974 Davis cup if not for apartheid. Vijay had multiple victories against Connors, McEnroe, Laver, Rosewall, Stan Smith etc, in fact he was known as the Aussie killer because he would regularly beat the Aussie when they were at their peak. I can go on and on about his achievements but this is not the thread for it, simply put he was way better than any version of Paes. Similarly Ramanatahan was almost as good as Amritraj, only a decade and a half earlier, consistent top 10. I will put Amritraj as our greatest because he did all this whilst suffering from asthma. 

Yes, undoubtedly our best players in singles were Amritraj and the Krishnans. Although doubles is easier than singles, it's not "easy" in an absolute sense. Hence, I'd rather take Indians winning double titles rather than not winning any titles period (by chasing only singles).

 

P.S: From what I recall, Amritraj did struggle against the best player of the Open era prior to FedEx-Nadal-Djoker, i.e. the Iceman Borg. It was a 5-1 to Borg if I remember correctly; Amritraj had much better H2H records against the other players you mentioned.

[Gollum]

Anyone who says Paes is the greatest I always quote a simple example. 1984 McEnroe remains till today the greatest season for any male tennis player, JMac finished the season at 82-3. One of his losses was against Amritraj in Cincinnati Masters. I rest my case.

[Cricketics]

5 minutes ago, Gollum said:

@Cricketics Just one small suggestion, we shouldn't hype our doubles players too much. We as a sporting society are basically encouraging mediocrity by hyping up doubles, focus should always be singles and only if you aren't good enough or have some injury should you shift to doubles. Because of constant pampering young Indian tennis stars may be tempted to take the easy way out via doubles because it's easier and being an Indian expect national media to fall head over heels if you have a few successes here and there. 

 

Another thing, as great as Paes is the 2 kings of tennis will always be Ramanthan Krishnan and Vijay Amritraj. Heck even in Bengal Jaidep Mukherjee and Premjit Lal are no less because they were better in singles. Ramesh Krishnan is better than Paes because he reached QF in 3 majors and beat 5x the number of ATGs Paes beat in singles.

 

Vijay and Ramanathan are next level. Under Vijay we should have won 1974 Davis cup if not for apartheid. Vijay had multiple victories against Connors, McEnroe, Laver, Rosewall, Stan Smith etc, in fact he was known as the Aussie killer because he would regularly beat the Aussie when they were at their peak. I can go on and on about his achievements but this is not the thread for it, simply put he was way better than any version of Paes. Similarly Ramanatahan was almost as good as Amritraj, only a decade and a half earlier, consistent top 10. I will put Amritraj as our greatest because he did all this whilst suffering from asthma. 

 Nothing to hype. But tnothing is mediocre. Everyone plays doubles when it really counts. Even top players play doubles in Olympics because thry want to extend their chances od winnigna medal.

 

The top players only don’t play doubles in grandslams because it makes them fatigued for their singles game if they commit to two events. 

 

We must respect what guys like The Woodies of Australia and the best of the best - The Bryan Brothers have done and achieved in mens doubles Tennis. It might be easier of the two events  but the prooblem with many is the comparison. Why compare doubles with singles.

 

Doubles Tennis is an event in itself and Leander is a legnd in it.

 

 

Also Leander is in a unique situaton here since he has an Olympic medal in Singles from Atlant Olympics. Indeed a champion.

 

No one is hyping doubles but it deserves attention.

 

Singles will always be pillar and I wish to see an Indian individual win a grandslam or reach top 10 at least.

 

I know jt will happen in my life time in next 3-5 years.

[Cricketics]

20 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Glad you mentioned Paes. Of the ones you mentioned, apart from Sania and Bopanna, most are unproven at the highest level (i.e. winning or making SF/F of grand slams). It remains to be seen if any of them will leave a mark.

They are unknown because Indians don’t get proper tv coverage of Tennis or many care two hoots about Tennis.

 

Tennis is a crazy big sport played all corners of the world with events taking place in remote areas of thr world most ever even heard of.

 

The players lose games and book flights for the next day to enter another event in different part of thr world and hence its hard to track a player’s schedule or progress unless you are a crazy tennis fan.

 

There is no ficed schedule like Indian cricket team or badminton players.

 

 

 

 

 

Tennis players are lonely and always need support as they are on their own to fight in this mean tennis lonely world as all they do is lose each week and book flights and hotels to different destinations only to gain few extra points to keep their ranking up so that they can qualify for the major grandslams which offer higher pay checks.

 

Support Tennis India and Indian playersand respect them. They work really hard and get the least attention. Its the toughest Individual soort where you have to be really flexible and few months of skipping can take your ranking from 100 to 600 whih would meanbyou could have to wait an year or more to get back into playing grandslam events or more.

 

 

 

[Gollum]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Yes, undoubtedly our best players in singles were Amritraj and the Krishnans. Although doubles is easier than singles, it's not "easy" in an absolute sense. Hence, I'd rather take Indians winning double titles rather than not winning any titles period (by chasing only singles).

 

P.S: From what I recall, Amritraj did struggle against the best player of the Open era prior to FedEx-Nadal-Djoker, i.e. the Iceman Borg. It was a 5-1 to Borg if I remember correctly; Amritraj had much better H2H records against the other players you mentioned.

I will take regular R3 or R4 over any doubles triumphs. I don't even know why they play doubles, none of the best players play it like the good old days and crowd attendance is very low, no one gives a damn. JMac even suggested to abolish doubles last year, he isn't alone in that regard.

 

Amritraj-Bjorg 1-5

Amritraj-Connors 5-6

Amritraj-McEnroe 2-11

Amritraj-Wilander 1-2

Amritraj-Rod Laver 2-0

Amritraj-Rosewall 1-6

Amritraj-Newcombe 1-1

Amritraj-Stan Smith 5-4

Amritraj-Nastase 3-2

Amritraj-Vilas 2-1

 

All stats from https://www.atpworldtour.com/en

 

This is a kickass record IMHO. Paes beat Sampras once, Ivanisevic once, no comparison with the true King of Indian tennis Vijay Amritraj. 

[Gollum]

Bengalis love hyping up Paes just like many other things. Paes himself is a prima donna cum attention seeker cum serial misguider, once read an interview of his where he said he would play till he breaks Federer's GS record...probably thought of the readers as fools. In Paes' mind mixed+mens doubles majors = singles majors. Lost respect for him after that. 

[Vijy]

17 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I will take regular R3 or R4 over any doubles triumphs. I don't even know why they play doubles, none of the best players play it like the good old days and crowd attendance is very low, no one gives a damn. JMac even suggested to abolish doubles last year, he isn't alone in that regard.

 

Amritraj-Bjorg 1-5

Amritraj-Connors 5-6

Amritraj-McEnroe 2-11

Amritraj-Wilander 1-2

Amritraj-Rod Laver 2-0

Amritraj-Rosewall 1-6

Amritraj-Newcombe 1-1

Amritraj-Stan Smith 5-4

Amritraj-Nastase 3-2

Amritraj-Vilas 2-1

 

All stats from https://www.atpworldtour.com/en

 

This is a kickass record IMHO. Paes beat Sampras once, Ivanisevic once, no comparison with the true King of Indian tennis Vijay Amritraj. 

things have changed a lot since then. especially in women: billie jean king, navratilova, court, etc were excellent singles and doubles players. now, as you noted, none bother to play. serena has done the few times she played though.

 

as for amritraj, looks like he did rather badly against the 3 that I respect the most: Borg, Rosewall and McEnroe. I think Laver must have been towards the end of his career, but he is also rather overrated.

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

things have changed a lot since then. especially in women: billie jean king, navratilova, court, etc were excellent singles and doubles players. now, as you noted, none bother to play. serena has done the few times she played though.

 

as for amritraj, looks like he did rather badly against the 3 that I respect the most: Borg, Rosewall and McEnroe. I think Laver must have been towards the end of his career, but he is also rather overrated.

23-38 against 10 ATGs isn't bad at all. He is definitely not an ATG but  an Asian ATG even if you include modern Asian players. Connors was his age and that record is ok, JMac was younger, some on that list older....all that shouldn't matter much because I have chosen the best of the best. Amritraj-Bjorg-Connors was known as the ABC of tennis back then but A didn't scale the same heights as B or C, asthma was a lifelong handicap which made him easy pickings in long physical encounters. 

[Vijy]

12 minutes ago, Gollum said:

23-38 against 10 ATGs isn't bad at all. He is definitely not an ATG but  an Asian ATG even if you include modern Asian players. Connors was his age and that record is ok, JMac was younger, some on that list older....all that shouldn't matter much because I have chosen the best of the best. Amritraj-Bjorg-Connors was known as the ABC of tennis back then but A didn't scale the same heights as B or C, asthma was a lifelong handicap which made him easy pickings in long physical encounters. 

yes, it's a fine record. he is our best singles player in all likelihood. but there is no doubt he underachieved, even taking asthma into account. lacked the temperament, not the talent.

[Cricket_Fan]

6 hours ago, dandaroy said:

Bengalis are what we call "Bheto Bangali". We eat rice, copious amounts of it. It makes us feel lazy and sleepy. We even put poppy seeds in our vegetable mix - it is called "posto". Also fish, not the seafood kind, the but vanilla fresh water fish. It tastes delicious, good for the eyes and brain, but does shyt to our muscles!! We love to do "adda" - which is people getting together, eating (again) and gossiping / passing judgements on everything going on in the world like we own the shyt! I think we are world renowned for this. And finally, we LOVE sweets, and eat it like there is no tomorrow. No wonder, majority of us suffer from diabetes, or are borderline.

 

And you expect this race to produce international quality athletes, let alone cricketers? 

 

Jai Bangla!!

Cricketers are way less athletic than Footballers whom Bengal has produced in abundance.

[rageaddict]

28 minutes ago, Cricket_Fan said:

Cricketers are way less athletic than Footballers whom Bengal has produced in abundance.

Yes,  Bengal has produced Thomas Odoyos  and Steve Tikolos of Football. Brilliant achievement. 

 

While Punjab and Mumbai have only  produced World Class Hockey Players that won Gold Medals/ World Cups and International Level Cricketers that won World Cups/ Test Series Abroad. 

 

The might Bengalis meanwhile won globally renowned tournaments like Santosh Trophy  and SAARC Cup and give tough competition to Footballing Giant's like Nepal,  Bangaldesh,  Myanmar and Sri Lanka. 

 

Respect. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by rageaddict