Is Kane Williamson the modern day Dravid?

[Number]

7 minutes ago, Gollum said:

That was pretty slow, but most great players have such knocks a few times in their long careers. 

 

Now I watched that match, so context matters. Most of us were surprised as to why we didn't enforce follow on, may be bowler fatigue could have been a reason. When we came 2nd time around it suddenly became very very overcast and the new ball started doing all sorts of things. IIRC it was even drizzling a while in the final session and our batsmen had to go on and off. In England overhead conditions can make even benign surfaces look like spitting cobras and that day was no different. Our top order were getting beaten left and right, made to look like novices, SRT was playing and missing every 2nd ball, soon we were 10/3.....those who saw that match live were really afraid that we would get bowled out under 3 figures, that's how difficult batting was then and Jimmy Anderson was exhibiting a swing bowling masterclass out there. Now comes the context, we hadn't won a series there for 22 years and were 1-0 up, only needing a draw in the final test to get the Pataudi Trophy. If we had gotten bowled out for 80 odd we would have allowed England a sniff at equalizing the scoreline. Dravid became a wall and Dada started counter attack. He was living dangerously and almost got out a few times but somehow pulled it off, that was brilliant by him...in fact that Dada (post 2006 SA tour) was the best version of Dada in test cricket. Dravid didn't score many but literally became a human wall during the course of that partnership. When he got out the ball had lost its shine and the sun was also out making life easier for the remaining batsmen. We left the declaration too late, ideally should have set them 450 to win in 125 odd overs...I blame poor captaincy more than defensive batting there. First not enforcing follow on when the conditions were overcast and then late declaration. 

  

 

I think not enforcing follow on was somewhat understandable as our bowlers bowled 100+ overs in the first innings.

 

[Gollum]

Just now, Number said:

I think not enforcing follow on was somewhat understandable as our bowlers bowled 100+ overs in the first innings.

 

May be but that was the general sentiment of commentators and fans that time. Besides 100+ overs in England is not as punishing as 100+ overs in India or Australia. Also we had a warhorse in Kumble and 2 able part timers (Dada, SRT). With the cloud cover may be Zak/RP/Sreesanth could have done some heavy damage upfront. You don't need to bend your back and hit the surface hard in England, just need to kiss the surface and even 125-130 kph well directed bowling in overcast conditions can wreck havoc. There's a reason why fast bowlers have such long careers in England, the run up isn't punishing on the knees and you don't need to exert maximum effort to reap rewards. In Australia bowlers need to bend their backs, hence so many injuries. In India besides bending backs, bowler run up (and outfield) which is like concrete gives a nice pounding to the knees of quicks. 

[Moochad]

Looks more like VVS than Dravid to me

[sarcastic]

On 5/18/2018 at 12:08 PM, master22 said:

Every batsman has one or two such knocks in his career. Even a batsman as great as Sachin scored 16 runs in 98 balls.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/14934/scorecard/64127/India-vs-Pakistan-3rd-Test-pakistan-tour-of-india-2004-05/#gp-inning-00

 

I can't think of any other test match ( other than probably Capetown 2006 along with Sachin) where RD slow innings costed India a test win.

Dravid has scored the most runs by an Indian batsman in overseas wins.

You are missing the point. SRT n everyone is saving the match as we don't have enough time to score 383 and with some more patience and application, that match could have been saved. 

 

Poster such as @Number and me are trying to convey that such slow knocks are needed and appreciated when the situation demands that. Not every scenario is like that. The other test match vs England is the case in point.

 

Rahul Dravid seems to be too soft a person (which is good but not always needed) to ruthlessly go for win when he can. You can see that in Kohli for e.g. He would have won that oval test for his team if he was in that situation in the 4th innings. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by sarcastic

[rkt.india]

12 hours ago, Number said:

 We didn't win because we were playing for a draw as we were 1-0 up.

But tell me is 12(96) justified in that position ?

yes, justified if playing for a draw. cant get a better innings in that context.

[Number]

18 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

yes, justified if playing for a draw. cant get a better innings in that context.

Playing for a draw justified when you are 329 ahead at the loss of 3 wickets in 3rd innings of the game ?

[Clarke]

35 minutes ago, Number said:

Playing for a draw justified when you are 329 ahead at the loss of 3 wickets in 3rd innings of the game ?

Erm, we were 11/3 in the second innings. What Dravid did is to shut whatever window of opportunity England were looking for to tie the series. England's 4th innings score suggests that they would have had a chance at chasing a 400 odd total. Dravid wasn't in the best of form in that series but as captain he was absolutely sure of his objectives and stuck by them.

 

Even in the other Ahmedabad test, you're simply taking advantage of hindsight and claiming we would have had a chance .. how is it possible to know what England would have scored in the 2nd inning, how much time would be left for a 4th inning chase, how the pitch would exactly behave etc.

 

Do u critical lot also cherry pick all the times these aggressive players throw away their wickets and lead us to defeat the same way players like Dravid seem to hold up an innings and deny us a potential victory IN HINDSIGHT ? I bet there's a lot of instances of the former as well. 

 

At the end of the day a draw isn't a bad outcome. As a test cricket fan one has to appreciate both the attempted Adelaide chase and the stonewalling at the Oval.

[mancalledsting]

it's amazing how back in the day Rahul Dravid was considered to be amongst the best batsmen in the world, in both tests and ODIs. He provided Sachin with the crucial world class backup he lacked earlier on in his career. he was even voted ICC cricketer of the year and at the time every cricketing nation wanted to have Rahul Dravid in their team. Its very sad to see someone who was responsible for taking Indian cricket to such high levels, helping make India the cricketing super power it is today, being disrespected so much on this forum....what an ungrateful bunch 

[master22]

On 5/18/2018 at 6:21 PM, Number said:

I'll give you another one 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/15442/scorecard/63962/india-vs-england-2nd-test-england-tour-of-india-2001-02/

We should have got close to England's score if not for momentum killing 7 of 60.

 

Are you serious? How can a knock in the 1st or 2nd innings of a match (that too just 60 balls) have any major impact on winning a TEST match. Its all hindsight. At the end of the match India still needed 170+ runs to win the match, and were scoring at 2 runs per over after 100 overs. They probably needed 70 more overs to chase that. It was not even close. How can you blame RD for that lol. It was inconsequential.

[master22]

23 hours ago, sarcastic said:

You are missing the point. SRT n everyone is saving the match as we don't have enough time to score 383 and with some more patience and application, that match could have been saved. 

 

Poster such as @Number and me are trying to convey that such slow knocks are needed and appreciated when the situation demands that. Not in every scenario is like that. The other test match vs England is the case in point.

 

Rahul Dravid seems to be too soft a person (which is good but not always needed) to ruthlessly go for win when he can. You can see that in Kohli for e.g. He would have won that oval test for his team if he was in that situation in the 4th innings. 

Well I respect your opinion but I do not understand what makes you think that Dravid did not have the attitude of going for the win, inspite of him scoring the highest number of runs in wins for India. Who were these superstars that always ruthlessly went for the win and why were they not able to score runs in wins more than RD.

[jusarrived]

On 5/19/2018 at 3:19 AM, sarcastic said:

You are missing the point. SRT n everyone is saving the match as we don't have enough time to score 383 and with some more patience and application, that match could have been saved. 

 

Poster such as @Number and me are trying to convey that such slow knocks are needed and appreciated when the situation demands that. Not every scenario is like that. The other test match vs England is the case in point.

 

Rahul Dravid seems to be too soft a person (which is good but not always needed) to ruthlessly go for win when he can. You can see that in Kohli for e.g. He would have won that oval test for his team if he was in that situation in the 4th innings. 

Dravid played to win , that's why most of our famous wins have been cos of his knocks . The softies get out when it gets  a little tough , dravid was opposite that . Some of your problem seems to be that it's not just these famous wins , he also played a big role in saving our ass multiple times helping us draw games which we where at the risk of losing .

 

Virat averages 8 in England and according to you he would have won that game somehow ? I bet those runs would have been at a higher sr than Dravid , not sure how he would have won it for us ? 

 

[jusarrived]

On 5/18/2018 at 9:51 PM, Number said:

I'll give you another one 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/15442/scorecard/63962/india-vs-england-2nd-test-england-tour-of-india-2001-02/

We should have got close to England's score if not for momentum killing 7 of 60.

 

India needed 260 runs in 40 overs when he came into bat ? Are you serious about us trying to chase that down in 2001 at more than run a ball ? 

 

 

[Straight Drive]

Dravid was better Test match player than KW.

 

In ODI and T20 KW is much better.

[Number]

1 hour ago, jusarrived said:

India needed 260 runs in 40 overs when he came into bat ? Are you serious about us trying to chase that down in 2001 at more than run a ball ? 

 

 

I was talking about India's first innings.

Openers gave us 50+ start playing 20+ overs.

New ball was seen off already.

Then RD played a 60 ball 7. 

But don't bother justifying that since I have already got a list of excuses for that. 

[jusarrived]

7 minutes ago, Number said:

I was talking about India's first innings.

Openers gave us 50+ start playing 20+ overs.

New ball was seen off already.

Then RD played a 60 ball 7. 

But don't bother justifying that since I have already got a list of excuses for that. 

India sccored 32 runs in that period of 25 overs , so that's 25 runs scored off 90 balls with Tendulkar at other end had scored 15 off 65 balls . So it wasn't just dravid who's was being circumspect.

May be cos they lost both the openers in 2 3 overs ?