rkt.india Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 3 hours ago, CSK Fan said: I love your hypocrisy when you call out bhuvis averages making a million excuse but dont do the same for other bowlers particularly in odis where you blindly follow averages . He tests even on flat pitches he has not been outbowled what should we do about other bowlers in ODIs? Regarding BK, I dont really remember him playing a test on flat pitches since Aus tour and if you bring Umesh Yadav, please read my post in another thread where i have said that we should move away from TTFs like Umesh. I am not someone who plays fan-fan or favorite-favorite game. I actually wanted BK to succeed in ODIs up front because he can be decent at death that is a great asset and I have advocated for BK in ODIs due to his death bowling skills but we do need bowlers effective with new ball too and if we dont give others chances then how are we going to create those better bowlers. Laaloo, Hell Raiser, Switchblade and 1 other 1 2 1 Link to comment
Unleashed Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Imagining an English equivalent of ICF where people are calling for James Anderson to be dropped because he doesn't consistently bowl over 137kmp/h. UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
zen Posted October 6, 2018 Author Share Posted October 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, Unleashed said: Imagining an English equivalent of ICF where people are calling for James Anderson to be dropped because he doesn't consistently bowl over 137kmp/h. Thank you for unleashing your ideas but unfortunately, Ind does not play in Eng like conditions .... and Eng is considering not taking likes of Anderson to subcon iirc Hope that the below helps: Records type bowling analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Home or away away (home of opposition) Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 unfiltered 2003-2018 143 267 5250.0 1332 15140 564 7/42 11/71 26.84 2.88 55.8 26 3 Profile filtered 2003-2018 54 96 1984.3 463 5943 174 6/42 8/161 34.15 2.99 68.4 5 0 Career summary Grouping Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 v Australia 2006-2018 18 34 720.3 181 2126 60 5/43 7/127 35.43 2.95 72.0 1 0 v India 2006-2016 10 18 309.5 71 870 26 4/40 6/79 33.46 2.80 71.5 0 0 v New Zealand 2008-2018 7 12 255.0 58 853 26 5/73 7/130 32.80 3.34 58.8 1 0 v South Africa 2005-2016 8 14 315.1 55 998 25 5/63 8/161 39.92 3.16 75.6 1 0 v Sri Lanka 2003-2012 4 7 135.4 30 448 11 5/72 5/98 40.72 3.30 74.0 1 0 v West Indies 2009-2015 7 11 248.2 68 648 26 6/42 7/77 24.92 2.60 57.3 1 0 Mosher 1 Link to comment
Unleashed Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 1 hour ago, zen said: Thank you for unleashing your ideas but unfortunately, Ind does not play in Eng like conditions .... and Eng is considering not taking likes of Anderson to subcon iirc Hope that the below helps: Records type bowling analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Home or away away (home of opposition) Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 unfiltered 2003-2018 143 267 5250.0 1332 15140 564 7/42 11/71 26.84 2.88 55.8 26 3 Profile filtered 2003-2018 54 96 1984.3 463 5943 174 6/42 8/161 34.15 2.99 68.4 5 0 Career summary Grouping Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 v Australia 2006-2018 18 34 720.3 181 2126 60 5/43 7/127 35.43 2.95 72.0 1 0 v India 2006-2016 10 18 309.5 71 870 26 4/40 6/79 33.46 2.80 71.5 0 0 v New Zealand 2008-2018 7 12 255.0 58 853 26 5/73 7/130 32.80 3.34 58.8 1 0 v South Africa 2005-2016 8 14 315.1 55 998 25 5/63 8/161 39.92 3.16 75.6 1 0 v Sri Lanka 2003-2012 4 7 135.4 30 448 11 5/72 5/98 40.72 3.30 74.0 1 0 v West Indies 2009-2015 7 11 248.2 68 648 26 6/42 7/77 24.92 2.60 57.3 1 0 You seem like an idiot to be fair, if you think them not taking Anderson to sub continent is due to his speed. They're managing his gametime. UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
zen Posted October 6, 2018 Author Share Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Unleashed said: You seem like an idiot to be fair, if you think them not taking Anderson to sub continent is due to his speed. They're managing his gametime. As he is not likely to be as useful in subcon as in Eng Also Bhuvi is not Anderson. And we have options which can perform relatively better in non swinging conditions Anyways, you are entitled to your opinion Edited October 6, 2018 by zen UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
CSK Fan Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) On 10/5/2018 at 9:29 AM, zen said: Everyone knows that his test stats in the last two years are boosted by playing in extremely helpful conditions in SA and when pace bowlers from both side took all (or almost all) wkts in the Ind vs SL game .... In 2019, he is not likely to encounter extremely friendly conditions. In fact, he could be due for performances like the below: Records type bowling analysis [change type] View innings by innings list [change view] Opposition team Australia or Bangladesh or England Start of match date between 5 Oct 2016 and 5 Oct 2018 Ordered by start date (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 unfiltered 21 37 558.0 141 1644 63 6/82 8/96 26.09 2.94 53.1 4 0 Profile filtered 3 6 65.3 15 195 4 1/11 2/68 48.75 2.97 98.2 0 0 PS his performance in Aus Records type bowling analysis [change type] View innings by innings list [change view] Opposition team Australia Home or away away (home of opposition) Ordered by start date (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 unfiltered 21 37 558.0 141 1644 63 6/82 8/96 26.09 2.94 53.1 4 0 Profile filtered 1 2 42.0 5 168 1 1/46 1/168 168.00 4.00 252.0 0 0 If we are to have a "no trundler" policy and if Bhuvi is considered a good trundler, not playing Bhuvi unless conditions demand (since we have quicker quality options) will send an even stronger message on what is required to be selected .... encouraging pace bowlers in the process .... as someone posted here, a trundler would, ideally, need to be of Asif's quality to be selected Even disregarding the Aus test, your other sample size is of 3 matches where in one test against in Aus he averaged 34? Why did you filter against Bangla and leave other teams? You do know your credibility for every other stat you pull for anything will now be question if this is the bull **** kind of confirmation bias you use. Just for fun I looked at the score-card of those 3 matches. in the England match, Umesh was the only other seamer for India and he took 0 wickets in the whole test For selective sample sizes of other fast bowlers who have played recently Shami averaged 39 in 5 tests in England of all places Ishant averaged 115 and 42 in 2 different series in last 2 years, in a total of 8 matches Less said about Umesh the better but he averaged 49 in the entire year of 2016 despite playing 9 matches Why is Bhuvi worse than any one of them except maybe Shami even after you pull these selective stats? How often would you need to be proven wrong? Many people claimed he would never be a death bowler. Many claimed he cannot increase his speed. Many claimed he never take wickets of good players. Many claimed he cannot take wickets in South Africa because we need speed and seam more than bounce there. Many claimed he cannot reverse swing. He proved you wrong every single time but still not lesson learnt. People are blindly predicting his test prowess using his ODI performance. This is very much the same mistake Pakistani fans make with batsmen, they think a blind slogger in ODIs will make a great test player. Because pakistani fans have no idea about batting except sixes and strike rate. They have no sense of batting nuance or an eye for talent or the skills a Kohli has which someone like Akmal doesn't. It seems our Indian fans have the same mentality with bowling, they know nothing except speed gun readings and make the same mistake of confusing ODI prowess with tests. Edited October 6, 2018 by CSK Fan UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
zen Posted October 6, 2018 Author Share Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, CSK Fan said: Even disregarding the Aus test, your other sample size is of 3 matches where in one test against in Aus he averaged 34? Why did you filter against Bangla and leave other teams? You do know your credibility for every other stat you pull for anything will now be question if this is the bull **** kind of confirmation bias you use. "Everyone knows that his test stats in the last two years are boosted by playing in extremely helpful conditions in SA and when pace bowlers from both side took all (or almost all) wkts in the Ind vs SL game .... In 2019, he is not likely to encounter extremely friendly conditions. In fact, he could be due for performances like the below:" Read the above^ properly as it clearly states this is how Bhuvi could go in non helpful conditions (and it is acknowledged that he did well in "helpful conditions"). Is he going to play in helpful conditions in 2019? Quote Just for fun I looked at the score-card of those 3 matches. in the England match, Umesh was the only other seamer for India and he took 0 wickets in the whole test For selective sample sizes of other fast bowlers who have played recently Shami averaged 39 in 5 tests in England of all places Ishant averaged 115 and 42 in 2 different series in last 2 years, in a total of 8 matches Less said about Umesh the better but he averaged 49 in the entire year of 2016 despite playing 9 matches In helpful conditions, Bhuvi can be considered. Mentioned in the OP - "no trundlers unless conditions demand" And who says Yadav and Ishant should be played consistently if they are not performing. They are breaking in to the 30s (age) now, therefore sooner or later we would need to find good quick options I would like to try out bowlers such as Siraj, Saini, Khaleel, etc., in conjunction w/ Bumrah (potentially the future leader of the attack) and may be Shami (currently one of Ind's best most conditions bowler) if he remains fit Quote Why is Bhuvi worse than any one of them except maybe Shami even after you pull these selective stats? How often would you need to be proven wrong? Many people claimed he would never be a death bowler. Many claimed he cannot increase his speed. Many claimed he never take wickets of good players. Many claimed he cannot take wickets in South Africa because we need speed and seam more than bounce there. Many claimed he cannot reverse swing. He proved you wrong every single time but still not lesson learnt. People are blindly predicting his test prowess using his ODI performance. This is very much the same mistake Pakistani fans make with batsmen, they think a blind slogger in ODIs will make a great test player. Because pakistani fans have no idea about batting except sixes and strike rate. They have no sense of batting nuance or an eye for talent or the skills a Kohli has which someone like Akmal doesn't. It seems our Indian fans have the same mentality with bowling, they know nothing except speed gun readings As identified earlier, Bhuvi has only done well in helpful conditions. How is that proving anyone wrong? Does Ashwin or Jadeja doing well in helpful conditions in Ind equate to proving people wrong? And does that mean we play Ashwin and Jadeja in swing friendly conditions in Eng? Note that our upcoming quick bowlers are more than just speed gun readings To add to the above, below are the ODI stats from the past two years, where Bhuvi has been the worst "specialist" fast/medium pace bowler: View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 6 Oct 2016 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 10 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 10 of 10 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 A Mishra 2016-2016 5 5 44.5 2 215 15 5/18 14.33 4.79 17.9 0 1 Kuldeep Yadav 2017-2018 29 27 250.4 8 1166 58 6/25 20.10 4.65 25.9 2 1 JJ Bumrah 2016-2018 37 37 308.5 20 1451 61 5/27 23.78 4.69 30.3 1 1 YS Chahal 2017-2018 28 27 247.1 8 1194 45 5/22 26.53 4.83 32.9 1 1 UT Yadav 2016-2018 16 15 128.1 4 757 26 4/71 29.11 5.90 29.5 1 0 KM Jadhav 2016-2018 39 26 133.5 1 651 22 3/23 29.59 4.86 36.5 0 0 B Kumar 2017-2018 35 34 269.5 15 1375 36 5/42 38.19 5.09 44.9 0 1 AR Patel 2016-2017 13 13 120.1 3 538 14 3/34 38.42 4.47 51.5 0 0 HH Pandya 2016-2018 42 41 294.4 3 1638 40 3/31 40.95 5.55 44.2 0 0 RA Jadeja 2017-2018 14 14 127.0 2 637 15 4/29 42.46 5.01 50.8 1 0 Edited October 6, 2018 by zen UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
zen Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) Hy’bad Test -> a Trundler Thakur plays ahead of a quick and in form Siraj Which is why I advocate the no trundler policy. In places like subcon, ME, Africa, etc., you have to be harsh and make some sacrifices to drive changes that make a positive impact esp. in the long term Edited October 12, 2018 by zen Suhaan and UrmiSinhaRay 1 1 Link to comment
zen Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 Below is the WTC schedule. With only 2 tests in NZ, Ind will have to focus on pace bowlers and spinners Ind's schedule 2019 July: In WI (2 Tests) Oct: vs SA (3 Tests) Nov: vs BD (2 Tests) 2020 Feb: In NZ (2 Tests) Nov: In Aus (4 Tests) 2021 Jan: vs Eng (5 Tests) June: Final (TBD) UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
Clarke Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Cmon, run of the mill trundlers have a role in making tourneys like Nihadas trophy interesting. If we go there with destructive phassht bowlers we don't get the last ball sixer finishes. And FFS, if Bhuvi is trundler then shame on the speed demons who can't outperform him. Wrt Aus tour, the judgement needs to be made based on the pitches being served. The last time SA toured Aus, Philander helped them win the series and covered up for the atg phaassht bowler Steyn along with Rabada. So it's not that only express bowlers succeed in Aus, it depends on the 22 yards like anywhere else. UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
express bowling Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 26 minutes ago, Clarke said: The last time SA toured Aus, Philander helped them win the series and covered up for the atg phaassht bowler Steyn along with Rabada. So it's not that only express bowlers succeed in Aus, it depends on the 22 yards like anywhere else. There aren't many medium pacers with the high skill levels of Bhuvi or Philander of 2018. Bhuvi will obviously be in the test squad to Australia, if fit. He may even be useful as a bowling allrounder. But we don't have any other highly skillful medium pacers and they are very rarely found. Picking moderately skillful medium pacers is the worst kind of selection. Even more so when they are short. UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
zen Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Clarke said: Wrt Aus tour, the judgement needs to be made based on the pitches being served. The last time SA toured Aus, Philander helped them win the series and covered up for the atg phaassht bowler Steyn along with Rabada. So it's not that only express bowlers succeed in Aus, it depends on the 22 yards like anywhere else. That is a general statement akin to playing spinners depends up on the surface. A suitable bowler can be played depending upon conditions. Those who are excited about the BorGav Trophy (thread is there on this) know the venues to be Adelaide, Perth, Melbourne and Sydney Even more than this series, I look forward to the WTC which starts from July 2019. And therefore would not mind using this series and one vs Zim to try the combination out. As for Bhuvi, if he plays and fails (likely as his avg is Aus is not that great from what I recall), it will help us to screen him out when we tour to Aus-NZ in 2020 (those series would be a part of WTC) If we plan optimally, these are potentially the last days of trundlers in tests unless conditions absolutely demand (and the shop for “winning in SENA is most imp” closes too) Edited October 12, 2018 by zen UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
rkt.india Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Shardul's selection is going to cost us this test. There is something in this pitch seamers and we had make do with just one and spinners except Kuldeep were not effective. WI should not have gotten 300 plus here. Switchblade and UrmiSinhaRay 1 1 Link to comment
mancalledsting Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 On 10/3/2018 at 4:59 PM, zen said: There was a time when we were blessed with Roger Binny, Madan Lal, Chetan Sharma, etc. In the 90s, Srinath came and we started to that we get more such bowlers .... Now we have a bunch of bowlers who can bowl 140+ consistently -> Bumrah, Khaleel, Saini, Siraj, Pandya (AR), etc. .... And then we have a back up of useful bowlers who can bowl quick - Shami, Yadav and Ishant We need to impose a no trundler policy. No Bhuvi, Chahar, Thakur, Kaul and company unless conditions demand it No trundlers why no Chahar?? UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
tweaker Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 This team management is promoting Trundler policy. Inspite of having Siraj in the squad they selected Shardul in the 2nd test against West Indies. Shardul was busy warming the bench, while Siraj had taken atleast 40 wickets against A sides. Tall left arm pacer Khaleel was in the squad, but the team management played Chahar & Kaul Inspite of Khaleel 3 wickets in his debut match. UrmiSinhaRay 1 Link to comment
zen Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 Good to see Bumrah and Shami have a strike rate of less than 50 in SEA in 2018 Link to comment
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