Ayodhya Verdict

[coffee_rules]

31 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

In the case of the Babri Masjid, the Ram Lalla was declared a juristic entity. The Waqf board didn't challenge that.

 

Not sure if a similar situation exists for the Gyanvapi mandir.

Not sure if that was the clincher of the verdict, but BMAC advised Marxist distortians tried to refute the historical record of the temple existence. But ASI survey and excavation before and after the demolition proved the existence of the temple and also unearthing of land dispute records maintained since British era proved it otherwise. 

[Clarke]

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

Not sure what you are trying to insinuate.

 

The people who build those monuments and demolished some others weren't the proponents of the Ganga Jamuna tehzeeb.

 

The ones who had wanted the status quo to remain have certainly been proponents of it. The leftist view also held by INC and almost all minorities is the same on this one, no matter that they may be the holiest sites of the majority community, what is remotely of concern to the minority must not be touched. 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Clarke

[coffee_rules]

6 hours ago, Clarke said:

 

The ones who had wanted the status quo to remain have certainly been proponents of it. The leftist view also held by INC and almost all minorities is the same on this one, no matter that they may be the holiest sites of the majority community, what is remotely of concern to the minority must not be touched. 

Why can’t moderate Muslims accept the wrongs done by yesteryear Islamist invaders, destroying temples and practiced Islamic iconoclasm? Nobody wants to blame present day Muslims for those invaders’ deeds. It will help a lot in reconciliation and help build the bridge for future. Don’t try to glorify Aurangzeb as a vegetarian Taqiyah (cap) weaving human, when his own historians glorify his quests on Hindus and Sikhs. Don’t name cities and roads after him. Don’t name your kids after him and Timur and rub it in. Don’t celebrate Tipu Jayanthi and reject their cruel Ideology with allegiance to the Persian and Turkey caliphate . After these, any bhaichara and tehzeeb can be accepted for future.

Edited April 11, 2021 by coffee_rules

[EnterTheVoid]

If you have the chance to do darshan at Ram Janmabhooni, you must have done something truly extraordinary in your previous lifetime to be afforded this privilege. 

 

Make the most of it. 

[Mariyam]

11 hours ago, Clarke said:

 

The ones who had wanted the status quo to remain have certainly been proponents of it. The leftist view also held by INC and almost all minorities is the same on this one, no matter that they may be the holiest sites of the majority community, what is remotely of concern to the minority must not be touched. 

I've mentioned this on this very thread before. But lets do a quick recap here:

 

The Waqf board 'inherited' the disputed structure when it was formed a few years after Independence. There were other claimants and it was essentially a title deed. Yes, the board should have relinquished all their claim to the land. That would be the ideal and right thing to do and would have gone a long way in reconciliation. But you can't hate on them for doing their job ie trying to take care of what was (till then, on paper) their property. They fought it out in the courts.

After the demolition of the structure, you really can't expect the body to not litigate further. That would be a loss of face. I don't think there ever was any chance of a reconciliation after that.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but most Muslims today simply do not care about the SC verdict. They accepted it and have moved on. 

The Waqf board has accepted the decision of the SC and have not filed any further appeals. 

 

It is the AIMPLB, a non democratic non government body which is making these noises. Since when do you attribute the behaviour of the AIMPLB to all Muslims?

A few years ago the AIMPLB had come up with a joke of a marriage contract called as the 'model nikanamah'. There were memes and WA forwards on it. That is the general level of deference that people have towards that body.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Mariyam

[Mariyam]

9 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Why can’t moderate Muslims accept the wrongs done by yesteryear Islamist invaders, destroying temples and practiced Islamic iconoclasm? Nobody wants to blame present day Muslims for those invaders’ deeds. It will help a lot in reconciliation and help build the bridge for future. Don’t try to glorify Aurangzeb as a vegetarian Taqiyah (cap) weaving human, when his own historians glorify his quests on Hindus and Sikhs. Don’t name cities and roads after him. Don’t name your kids after him and Timur and rub it in. Don’t celebrate Tipu Jayanthi and reject their cruel Ideology with allegiance to the Persian and Turkey caliphate . After these, any bhaichara and tehzeeb can be accepted for future.

This is a very very strange post. 

Who is glorifying Aurangazeb again? Or Babur? I've not met any Muslims who would give a damn.

They are what they are. They did what they did. That's that. Guilt, like salvation, is individual. And they are long gone.

Who cares if Aurangzeb was a vegetarian or had quinoa + lettuce and feta cheese for breakfast? Don't see why any of this is so bothersome.

Who has named cities after him? Was it various Muslim organisations which roamed across the country trying to write his name in indelible black ink over the existing street names? 

Celebration of Tipu Jayanthi ( btw how Islamic does the word Jayanthi sound? think about it) is a political move. Its not like people mark it out on their calendars go around jumping in joy. Most people wouldn't even have known about Tipu if it weren't for that DD show with gaudy costumes that Sanjay Khan produced.

 

Why are you so focused on what has happened ( some would say allegedly happened) 400+ years ago. That is not very different from how an Islamic extremist thinks. "Oh our golden yeas during the Rashidun Caliphate, before em kaffirs influenced us and lead us astray". Some random point in the past you glorify as a golden age. Some other random people in the past you vilify as the cause of your purported downfall. 

 

If one is are so caught up in the past, when does one chart a future for one's self and the country?

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Mariyam

[mishra]

Ganga Jamuna tehzeeb is my Jain friend’s dad organising annual Indian classical music festival funded by Modi/ BJP Gvmt in MP and its in memory of Ustad Allauddin Khan.

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by mishra

[Clarke]

2 hours ago, Mariyam said:

I've mentioned this on this very thread before. But lets do a quick recap here:

 

The Waqf board 'inherited' the disputed structure when it was formed a few years after Independence. There were other claimants and it was essentially a title deed. Yes, the board should have relinquished all their claim to the land. That would be the ideal and right thing to do and would have gone a long way in reconciliation. But you can't hate on them for doing their job ie trying to take care of what was (till then, on paper) their property. They fought it out in the courts.

After the demolition of the structure, you really can't expect the body to not litigate further. That would be a loss of face. I don't think there ever was any chance of a reconciliation after that.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but most Muslims today simply do not care about the SC verdict. They accepted it and have moved on. 

The Waqf board has accepted the decision of the SC and have not filed any further appeals. 

 

It is the AIMPLB, a non democratic non government body which is making these noises. Since when do you attribute the behaviour of the AIMPLB to all Muslims?

A few years ago the AIMPLB had come up with a joke of a marriage contract called as the 'model nikanamah'. There were memes and WA forwards on it. That is the general level of deference that people have towards that body.

 

All of this inheritance, decades long dispute, illegal demolition, further litigation comes later, why has there been a dispute in the first place across the centuries and since Independence ?

 

The very existence of the dispute, the stance of political parties vying for the minority vote, the body representing the minority community, the voices online as well as our personal interactions strongly point towards the support for the existing Mathura/Kashi or earlier Ayodhya monuments. 

[gattaca]

6 hours ago, Clarke said:

 

All of this inheritance, decades long dispute, illegal demolition, further litigation comes later, why has there been a dispute in the first place across the centuries and since Independence ?

 

The very existence of the dispute, the stance of political parties vying for the minority vote, the body representing the minority community, the voices online as well as our personal interactions strongly point towards the support for the existing Mathura/Kashi or earlier Ayodhya monuments. 

you have to takes in the context at that time during independence. We had riots everywhere. People were killed in communal riots. It was a good decision to leave it alone at that. We were not mature at that time.  Congress was trying to keep India together. 

[coffee_rules]

18 hours ago, Mariyam said:

This is a very very strange post. 

Who is glorifying Aurangazeb again? Or Babur? I've not met any Muslims who would give a damn.

They are what they are. They did what they did. That's that. Guilt, like salvation, is individual. And they are long gone.

Who cares if Aurangzeb was a vegetarian or had quinoa + lettuce and feta cheese for breakfast? Don't see why any of this is so bothersome.

Who has named cities after him? Was it various Muslim organisations which roamed across the country trying to write his name in indelible black ink over the existing street names? 

Celebration of Tipu Jayanthi ( btw how Islamic does the word Jayanthi sound? think about it) is a political move. Its not like people mark it out on their calendars go around jumping in joy. Most people wouldn't even have known about Tipu if it weren't for that DD show with gaudy costumes that Sanjay Khan produced.

 

Why are you so focused on what has happened ( some would say allegedly happened) 400+ years ago. That is not very different from how an Islamic extremist thinks. "Oh our golden yeas during the Rashidun Caliphate, before em kaffirs influenced us and lead us astray". Some random point in the past you glorify as a golden age. Some other random people in the past you vilify as the cause of your purported downfall. 

 

If one is are so caught up in the past, when does one chart a future for one's self and the country?

 

Glorification is done by academics (Like Audrey Trushke, Sheldon Pollock) , the Marxist historians who are in charge of NCERTtextbooks, Muslim Intellectuals, Celebs, Bollywood junta,  Leaders, and secular liberals. I have not interacted with aam junta and the perception in MSM and SM, is Muslims are deeply hurt by RJB verdict and feel cheated. Now the cycle repeats for Kashi and Mathura. 
 

If people level interaction is done and don’t involve courts or politicians, a lot of these problems can be resolved amicably. But whoever is advising the Wakf board or BMAC is to be blamed. 
 

Let’s not get into golden period talk, yes the advent of Islam in the region brought violent strife, death and destruction to common folk. They didn’t just kill armies in war, but went around looting temples and common folk. Tyrants like Timur will only cause hurt and disappointment to Hindus. These are not our historians that recorded these events, it is in Persians and Turkic accounts that have glorified it.

 

For many Hindus , to move on in modern India, there needs to be reconciliation. When we visit our holy places like Hampi or Kashi or Mathura, the adjoining structures do stick out like sore thumbs, bringing hurt feeling and reminds them the atrocities. imagine seeing a church near Kaaba. I don’t think India can move on without resolving this issue. 

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by coffee_rules