Viv Richards: I'd pick Sachin over Lara

[Rasgulla]

https://newsin.asia/batting-legend-vivian-richards-says-pakistan-is-safe-for-international-cricket/
 

 

 Can't take a word of paid PR. Sachin still trying to be revelent. Good try from his PR.

[zen]

44 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Forget Kapil. How about Viru vs Sunny. Surely they are similar enough at least in terms of the roles if not style (openers for the best part of their careers who averaged around 50). Seems unfair to pick selfish Sunny who crawled at a SR in the 40s to swashbuckling unselfish Viru who didn't care for records and had a SR in the 80s .

Good to see now you have reduced the number of random elements (which many Sachin fans tend to generate when they get nervous for e.g.) and found similarity b/w Gavaskar and Sehwag as openers and players with similar averages .... However, they played in different eras and in teams that had different strengths   

 

Additionally, Gavaskar was ahead of his peers:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1971 and 1 Jan 1988

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 7 of 7

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
SM Gavaskar	1971-1987	125	214	16	10122	236*	51.12	34	45	12
DB Vengsarkar	1976-1987	98	158	22	6256	166	46.00	17	30	12
M Amarnath	1976-1987	67	109	9	4358	138	43.58	11	24	11
GR Viswanath	1971-1983	87	147	9	5746	222	41.63	13	33	9
RJ Shastri	1981-1987	57	84	11	2525	142	34.58	7	9	7
N Kapil Dev	1978-1987	91	131	12	3775	163	31.72	5	21	12
SMH Kirmani	1976-1986	88	124	22	2759	102	27.04	2	12	7

 

While Sehwag was right up there with his peers:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2001 and 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 8 of 8

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
R Dravid	2001-2012	123	215	25	9943	270	52.33	22964	43.29	28	46	5	1245	16
SR Tendulkar	2001-2013	121	204	20	9505	248*	51.65	17652	53.84	27	44	7	1220	40
V Sehwag	2001-2013	103	178	6	8503	319	49.43	10346	82.18	23	31	16	1219	90
VVS Laxman	2001-2012	115	192	31	7947	281	49.36	15907	49.95	16	51	10	1024	5
G Gambhir	2004-2012	54	96	5	4021	206	44.18	7800	51.55	9	21	5	502	8
SC Ganguly	2001-2008	75	124	11	4501	239	39.83	8428	53.40	9	21	9	560	28
MS Dhoni	2005-2013	81	127	15	4342	224	38.76	7268	59.74	6	28	8	468	75
Harbhajan Singh	2001-2013	93	131	16	2171	115	18.87	3298	65.82	2	9	17	270	42

 

 

PS excluding BD and Zim

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2001 and 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 7 of 7

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
R Dravid	2001-2012	111	199	23	9067	270	51.51	21295	42.57	25	41	4	1128	15
VVS Laxman	2001-2012	107	181	30	7568	281	50.11	15331	49.36	15	50	10	968	4
V Sehwag	2001-2013	96	168	4	8151	319	49.70	9917	82.19	23	28	16	1161	88
SR Tendulkar	2001-2013	111	189	16	8250	241*	47.68	15554	53.04	21	42	7	1072	34
G Gambhir	2004-2012	48	87	3	3496	206	41.61	7115	49.13	7	19	5	432	7
SC Ganguly	2001-2008	65	111	11	3889	239	38.89	7157	54.33	6	19	8	477	25
MS Dhoni	2005-2013	78	123	13	4149	224	37.71	6996	59.30	6	26	8	449	68

 

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by zen

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Tendy was not a steady eddy in his prime, he was a destroyer of bowlers. Scoring 113-130 etc. in an era where 300 is the par score of a first innings match, while utterly annihilating the opposition bowling at a pace 30-40% faster than the whole team's is not a steady eddy player. 

A steady eddy is a guy like Chanderpaul of THAT era. hard to get out once in, will tuk-tuk his way to 70-90 runs, will have a few near misses/look vulnerable for periods and pull through, etc. 

 

You wanting people who do 0,5,275,0,10,15 is making an inferior team, period, because winning teams are always based on consistency of performers over time. But hey, if you want to create the WWE version of a cricket team instead of an actual Olympic greco-roman wrestler, thats your perogative.

What records did so called destroyer of bowling attacks create, has he scored fastest 100 , 200, 300.What was his fastest 100??

[Jimmy Cliff]

24 minutes ago, zen said:

Good to see now you have reduce the number of random elements (which many Sachin fans tend to generate when they get nervous for e.g.) and found similarity b/w Gavaskar and Sehwag as openers and players with similar averages .... However, they played in different eras and in teams that had different strengths   

 

Additionally, Gavaskar was way ahead of his peers:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1970 and 1 Jan 1987

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 7 of 7

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
SM Gavaskar	1971-1986	120	207	16	9822	236*	51.42	34	42	11
M Amarnath	1976-1986	59	97	8	4054	138	45.55	11	23	10
DB Vengsarkar	1976-1986	89	144	18	5381	164*	42.70	13	27	12
GR Viswanath	1971-1983	87	147	9	5746	222	41.63	13	33	9
RJ Shastri	1981-1986	48	72	11	2247	142	36.83	6	9	6
N Kapil Dev	1978-1986	82	119	11	3426	163	31.72	5	17	12
SMH Kirmani	1976-1986	88	124	22	2759	102	27.04	2	12	7

 

While Sehwag was right up there with his peers:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2001 and 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 8 of 8

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
R Dravid	2001-2012	123	215	25	9943	270	52.33	22964	43.29	28	46	5	1245	16
SR Tendulkar	2001-2013	121	204	20	9505	248*	51.65	17652	53.84	27	44	7	1220	40
V Sehwag	2001-2013	103	178	6	8503	319	49.43	10346	82.18	23	31	16	1219	90
VVS Laxman	2001-2012	115	192	31	7947	281	49.36	15907	49.95	16	51	10	1024	5
G Gambhir	2004-2012	54	96	5	4021	206	44.18	7800	51.55	9	21	5	502	8
SC Ganguly	2001-2008	75	124	11	4501	239	39.83	8428	53.40	9	21	9	560	28
MS Dhoni	2005-2013	81	127	15	4342	224	38.76	7268	59.74	6	28	8	468	75
Harbhajan Singh	2001-2013	93	131	16	2171	115	18.87	3298	65.82	2	9	17	270	42

 

 

Nervousness? LMAO. The gulf between Sehwag and Sunny's Avg * SR is so vast that no era based adjustment can cover the difference. Remember, we are comparing (82*49) vs (51*44). Sehwag seems almost twice as good based on this dubious stat. Even if we give some grace marks to Sunny for playing in a relatively weaker side, Sehwag is too far ahead. Btw, Sehwag also happens to be well ahead of his peers based on Avg * SR. And yet Sunny gets in your AT XI side. I call bias .

Edited December 13, 2018 by Jimmy Cliff

[zen]

in 2000s till the end of his career, Tendulkar was not even Ind's best test batsman 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 7 of 7

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
R Dravid	2000-2012	114	205	23	9190	270	50.49	21718	42.31	25	41	5	1144	15
VVS Laxman	2000-2012	109	185	30	7758	281	50.05	15643	49.59	16	50	11	998	4
V Sehwag	2001-2013	96	168	4	8151	319	49.70	9917	82.19	23	28	16	1161	88
SR Tendulkar	2000-2013	114	195	16	8445	241*	47.17	15914	53.06	21	43	7	1100	36
G Gambhir	2004-2012	48	87	3	3496	206	41.61	7115	49.13	7	19	5	432	7
MS Dhoni	2005-2013	78	123	13	4149	224	37.71	6996	59.30	6	26	8	449	68
SC Ganguly	2000-2008	68	117	11	3962	239	37.37	7332	54.03	6	19	8	487	26

 

 

On the other hand, Lara in 2000s till he retired 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 1 Jan 2007

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 5 of 5

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
BC Lara	2000-2006	61	112	2	5944	400*	54.03	10229	58.10	19	18	13	731	52
S Chanderpaul	2000-2006	54	97	13	4096	203*	48.76	9251	44.27	11	21	6	474	14
CH Gayle	2000-2006	54	97	1	3559	317	37.07	6310	56.40	5	23	10	551	31
RR Sarwan	2000-2006	57	106	6	3521	139	35.21	7998	44.02	7	23	10	458	7
WW Hinds	2000-2005	39	70	0	2212	213	31.60	4753	46.53	5	11	6	306	13

 

 

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

What records did so called destroyer of bowling attacks create, has he scored fastest 100 , 200, 300.What was his fastest 100??

fastest 100,200,300,400 are irrelevant in test cricket. 

[zen]

We can forgive Viv for making this comment and oversight. Lara is better. May be Viv forgot to account for format

 

Once again:

 

Tests: Lara

ODIs: Tendulkar

 

[zen]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Nervousness? LMAO. The gulf between Sehwag and Sunny's Avg * SR is so vast that no era based adjustment can cover the difference. Remember, we are comparing (82*49) vs (51*44). Sehwag seems almost twice as good based on this dubious stat. Even if we give some grace marks to Sunny for playing in a relatively weaker side, Sehwag is too far ahead. Btw, Sehwag also happens to be well ahead of his peers based on Avg * SR. And yet Sunny gets in your AT XI side. I call bias .

Note that in Gavaskar's time, at times, Ind was happy to not lose esp. in countries with dodgy umpiring .... and no need to remind you that on one occasion, Ind refused to play because of "being bombarded with bouncers and beamers / the pitch" was perceived as too dangerous for cricket 

 

Scorecard - 5 players absent hurt  .... And we have discussed points such as performance vs peers 

 

I hope that you are not biased against Sunny   .... Among Ind retired batsmen, Sunny probably has the best avg from those who scored 2K or more runs once you exclude BD and Zim 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by zen

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

fastest 100,200,300,400 are irrelevant in test cricket. 

Why are they irrelvant, show me score card  where Tendulkar destroyed fast bowlng attacks.

[putrevus]

This notion that Sachin destroyed fast bowling attacks is over blown.This is Sehwag destorying and putting fear of god  versus very good fast bowling attack including Dale Steyn.

 

BTW, this is one of the best knock by Indian against a very good fast bowling attack in Indian conditions.I don't recollect a better attacking  knock.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/13362/scorecard/441826/india-vs-south-africa-2nd-test-south-africa-tour-of-india-2009-10

[Lala]

Lol such a begger this Richard is. I think this moron is aiming to get selected as at least assistant coach, mentor, whoever begger for $ in Mumbai Indian squad. What a loser to disregard the all the achievements of fellow countryman. 

[Muloghonto]

25 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Why are they irrelvant, show me score card  where Tendulkar destroyed fast bowlng attacks.

There are plenty where Tendulkar has scored dominating tons at 70+ strike rate while also scoring the bulk of runs, which definitely qualifies as dominating the attack. Use stats-guru.

And they are irrelevant, because fastest tons are not directly related to winning test cricket as they are in winning limited overs cricket.
Give me a 150 in 200 balls over 100 in 55 balls in test cricket any day of the week. If you have to ask why fastest tons dont matter in test cricket, clearly, you dont understand test cricket. We won the last match largely due to the batting of one of our slowest batsmen batting slowly. Test cricket!

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, Lala said:

Lol such a begger this Richard is. I think this moron is aiming to get selected as at least assistant coach, mentor, whoever begger for $ in Mumbai Indian squad. What a loser to disregard the all the achievements of fellow countryman. 

Not fellow countryman at all. Richards is Antiguan, Lara is Trinidadian. Except for cricket, the caribbean countries happily mess with each other like all neighboring countries do to each other from time to time. 

Its more like a first class player picking someone from the opposition team over their own team-mate. Not a big deal. 

 

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

There are plenty where Tendulkar has scored dominating tons at 70+ strike rate while also scoring the bulk of runs, which definitely qualifies as dominating the attack. Use stats-guru.

And they are irrelevant, because fastest tons are not directly related to winning test cricket as they are in winning limited overs cricket.
Give me a 150 in 200 balls over 100 in 55 balls in test cricket any day of the week. If you have to ask why fastest tons dont matter in test cricket, clearly, you dont understand test cricket. We won the last match largely due to the batting of one of our slowest batsmen batting slowly. Test cricket!

I understand cricket lot better than you, I have seen almost all of his innings and I don't classify them as dominating innings against fast bowling attack.Tendulkar was nothing more than compiler of stats in test cricket.He was a great compiler in test cricket.In odis it is different story.

Sehwag has such dominating innings not Tendulkar.

Edited December 14, 2018 by putrevus

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I understand cricket lot better than you,

You clearly don't, which is why you care about fastest centuries/200s in Test cricket, which is virtually irrelevant in the format. 

5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I have seen almost all of his innings and I don't classify them as dominating innings against fast bowling attack.

That is because you are not objective in your analysis. Anyone who is scoring the bulk majority of runs at a significantly higher rate than the rest of the team, is objectively, mathematically, dominating. End of story. 

5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Tendulkar was nothing more than compiler of stats in test cricket.He was a great compiler in test cricket.In odis it is different story.

Sehwag has such dominating innings not Tendulkar.

False. 

[Dil Dil India]

On 12/12/2018 at 1:23 AM, Rasgulla said:

Paid PR..  

 

Lara > Pointing >...... > sachin 

The real order is Inzamam >>> Bradman >>> Younis Khan >>> Lara >>>"Pointing">Umar Akmal>Sachin

[Sooda]

Lara has more special great innings than SRT but SRT was more consistent over longer period. I'd say it's a close one between the two. Could make a good case for Lara>SRT

[rtmohanlal]

9 hours ago, Lala said:

Lol such a begger this Richard is. I think this moron is aiming to get selected as at least assistant coach, mentor, whoever begger for $ in Mumbai Indian squad. What a loser to disregard the all the achievements of fellow countryman. 

Richard is being true to his conscious and he speaks the mind. Keep in mind not every person are  like shame less Pakistanis who sing glory songs of Kaptaan Khan despite him  being a proven ball tamperor all thru his career.

[rtmohanlal]

Earlier in this thread,  I put forward some data w.r.t   the dominance level & consistancy of  Sachin & Lara each 'at abroad   which matters the most' 

 

WRT dominance,  in 16 100+ inns , Sachin on the avg: leads Lara by  4 more runs while consuming 55 more balls  when 'magnitude of big inns'  was given preference.

                            In 16 100+ inns , Sachin on the avg: lags Lara by  mere 2.31 runs while consuming 26 more balls  when 'str: rate'  was given preference.

So either way there is virtually 'nil' level  difference as far as 'dominance' factor is concerned   between the 2 batsmen.

 

On the other hand in the vast majority of other ordinary inns, Sachin leads Lara by  9.51 runs/inns despite playing 128 inns to Lara's 101.

 

So for me , what ever be  the counter arguments, this data is enough to  be firm in my mind that Sachin was the convincingly better batsman.

 

And one dayers & other factors combined, the gap only widens further.

Edited December 14, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[putrevus]

13 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

You clearly don't, which is why you care about fastest centuries/200s in Test cricket, which is virtually irrelevant in the format. 

That is because you are not objective in your analysis. Anyone who is scoring the bulk majority of runs at a significantly higher rate than the rest of the team, is objectively, mathematically, dominating. End of story. 

False. 

Show me one innings where this so called destroyer destroyed a perfectly good bowling attack. You are only guy who thinks scoring fast does not help in test cricket.Aussies dominated world cricket based on that mantra only.He was a compiler of highest order nothing more than that, even in odis his domination mostly was in Asian conditions.  

 

Just because he was better than his team mates he does not become world's best.

Edited December 14, 2018 by putrevus